Whether to get wethers?

[KrisK]

Sorry, I couldn't resist Since I am still in the research mode on acquiring sheep, I am debating on whether my first flock should just be wethers? I am not yet in a position to be able to take on the responsibility for lambs, lambing, etc. and to be quite honest, I'm not sure I do want that responsiblity. So in order not to do any disservice to a flock, would starting with wethers be a good idea? BTW, I am reading a great book 'Storey's Guide to Raising Sheep' and I'm learning alot but somehow asking someone who is actually involved in raising sheep makes more sense to me.

 

Thanks for your help.

[Bill Fosher]

What is the purpose of having wethers? The only revenue stream is wool, and the price of wool barely covers the cost of shearing (and doesn't even do that in many cases).

 

If you're looking for a dog training flock, wehters might make a little more sense, but you should be aware that they are going to be an economic drain.

[KathyF]

So, this brings up the question of what do you use for training/working your dogs when all of your ewes are either in the last part of gestation or with young lambs??

 

Kathy

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You can always start with open (unbred) ewes and just not breed them until they are ready. It won't hurt them, honestly.

 

I had wethers my very first year and never needed them afterwards. I started to keep back my entire "crop" of replacement ewe lambs for a whole year before breeding. I could see how they grew out then and cull before breeding, and it ensured that I always had reasonably even, fresh sheep for working. I have very few lambing problems from these mature first-timers. I believe I will continue this practice when we move to the bigger place, though it originally grew out of the need to conserve pasture space.

[Bill Fosher]

I had one or two whethers that we had been given, and as soon as I had to feed them over a winter, I put one in the freezer (I named him Mr. Tasty) and the other (Mr. Rank) went to auction.

[KrisK]

Okay....at the risk of sounding totally stupid (and yes, you all may chuckle if you must) I can get ewes and there is no real need to breed them.

Just to clarify for everyone, my DH is vegetarian and I'm as close as I can get, not quite there, so having sheep for meat purposes is not in the plans. There are not many sheep raised in this area so I would only want a very small flock anyway. There are weavers & spinners in the area so I think I would have a small market for either the wool or hair depending on what type of sheep I might get.

Having sheep would be a hobby for me (yes, I know it will be expensive but lots of hobbies are). I would also like to have the sheep so I could train the dogs.

Basically, I'm just trying to avoid making any really stupid mistakes by asking questions and so far, the people on the boards don't seem to mind answering those stupid questions...for which I'm most grateful.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Two directions you might explore:

 

Conservation breeds. There's several breeds that are very useful for smallholders in their various ways, but are considered "rare" compared to the big farm breeds like Suffolk, Hampshire, Dorset, Rambo, etc.

 

As you mention, spinner flocks can be a good choice if you don't want to get into meat lambs. Producing and (going a step further) breeding a good fleece is an intense and rewarding experience - from what I hear. It's a LOT more work than producing satisfactory meat lambs - but if you are a big fan of genetics and enjoy meticulous animal management, it could be a lot of fun.

 

Spinner and conservation can overlap, if you wanted to get into breeding down the road. Several of the fine fleece breeds are also conservation breeds.

 

Dairy sheep are another road to explore, though that's a pretty advanced level of livestock management. The sheep tend to be awfully expensive, too.

 

You definitely want to start with good stock if you go the spinner route without having market lambs to fall back on. That WILL mean it will hurt a lot if you lose one. A book I was just reading had some good advice - when buying stock, consider the salvage value (what the animal is worth if you have to dispose of it quickly, ie, slaughter price) compared to the purchase price. If there's a big difference, is that a loss you can absorb comfortably? If you can't - or have a big learning curve to overcome, you may want to start with grade stock instead.

 

In addition to the Storey Guide, I can also recommend Small-Scale Livestock Farming by Carol Ekarius. It's a great overview of sustainable farming methods

[Bill Fosher]

Personally, if I were selling stock from a rare breed, I wouldn't sell it to someone who wouldn't breed it. And if you breed sheep, eventually some will have to end up in someone's freezer. So if the idea of selling sheep for meat is verboten, then I would stay with good, sound commercial ewes, and just don't get a ram.

[KrisK]

Thanks Bill and Rebecca for taking time to respond since I know you are both busy people. You have each given me the type of information that will help me decide where I want to go with my future plans. At the very least, I can look at getting some sheep (no ram) and decide from there when or if I want to take on the challenge of breeding.

I think I'll do more research into the conservation/rare breed. Is it possible to breed and sell to other conservation flocks. At least that's something I can look into more closely.

[Howdyjabo]

There is a program with one rare breed- where they give you the starter flock and you give them back all the extra lambs to go into new starter flocks.

 

I can't remember the breed though

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What you might want to do is just yourself some sheep that for whatever reason are being culled out of a production flock. Give them a nice life for a few years while you expand your experience with the local sheep scene and just learn the basics of sheep care.

 

Meanwhile, try to find places where the people hang out that pursue the same sort of lifestyle with sheep that you are considering (ie, spinner, conservation breeds). Take classes, go to seminars, join clubs and organizations. Make some friends, visit some farms, offer to help whenever unskilled labor would be welcome. Don't bring your dogs unless your new friends are begging you on their knees, your dogs are VERY well trained, and you are extremely conservative in how you use them.

 

If you network within the "culture" BEFORE you take the plunge, you can attune your stock choices to what will work best in your area, what you'll have a market for, and what you'll be able to get the most help with.

[juliepoudrier]

KillerH,

I know the government does that with Navajo Churro sheep, but I think the practice is confined to the western states (since I thought at one time that might be a way for me to get Navajo churros...).

 

Colonial Williamsburg also did something like that when they wanted to bring Leicester longwools back into the US so they could have authentic sheep for the colonial site. They actually set folks up with satellite flocks so they could get breeding going here in the US. They are no longer doing that though as now enough Leicester longwools exist.

 

Kris,

In addition to the things Becca has mentioned, also consider getting sheep that *you like.* Sheep can be hard work, and keeping sheep that don't particularly appeal to you, just because that's what everyone else in the area has, won't make the work of shepherding them any easier. That's not to say you should go totally off the deep end and get something that's absolutely not appropriate for your area, but you should be able to find breeds that are suitable for your location that you also *want* to raise. Lots of folks around here have hair sheep, but I simply don't like hair sheep. So I chose breeds I do like, after discussing their merits/pitfalls and whether they could thrive where I live with the people that know them best--breeders who live in the same general clime as I do.

 

As for conservation breeding, yes you can sell to other breeders, but chances are if you have an 80% ram crop in a given year, you're not going to have demand for all your rams. So you would still need a plan for what to do with the excess. Good ewe lambs are of course another story.

 

J.

[KrisK]

Thanks again

What you might want to do is just yourself some sheep that for whatever reason are being culled out of a production flock. Give them a nice life for a few years while you expand your experience with the local sheep scene and just learn the basics of sheep care

Rebecca, that's a good idea which I will try to follow up. I'd love to get involved with 'sheep' people, but unless I can commit to driving 300-400 km. there just aren't many around here. I'm going to check with the local agriculture rep. to see if they are aware of sheep being raised closer to me. Most farms in my area are either beef or dairy farms.

In addition to the things Becca has mentioned, also consider getting sheep that *you like.*

Julie, another good point I have been looking into Icelandic sheep, mostly because they seem to be a good breed for our climate and there are flocks in Eastern Ontario that seem to be thriving.

Just on another note, I've just started looking at alpacas...which are horribly expensive but there are at least 3 farms in my area raising them and doing well and they definitely have a market for the fleece. One of the farms close by (well 160 km away) has seminars planned which I can attend. This farm also has a small flock (4-6) sheep which I can check out at the same time. It is possible that alpacas may be more in line with my lifestyle. I don't suppose alpacas will be much help in training my dogs, but perhaps I can find another way to do that.

I just want to say again, how much I appreciate all of your thoughtful replies. It does mean alot to me.

[juliepoudrier]

Kris,

Another consideration regarding wethers. I may well be keeping some of the wethers from this lamb crop to use as puppy training sheep (i.e., I will train them to be nice little dog broke sheep). Bill's right that there's no economic advantage to doing that, but in my case, my "open" ewes may not be open, and I don't want to overly stress my breeding stock or get them dog broke to the point where they'd be good for starting pups or young dogs. So I'm willing to accept the "money drain" that is keeping wethers, though these at least might have good fleeces that could be harvested for handspinning.... So in this instance, the value of the wethers to me is not in the $$ I can get at market for them, but rather in the fact that I will not be dogging my registered conservation breeding stock for the purpose of training young dogs.

 

I was in spinning class the other night and a couple of the folks had alpacas. You're right--tres chere (where are those pesky accents when I need them?).

 

Good luck, and keep us updated.

 

J.

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

What you might want to do is just yourself some sheep that for whatever reason are being culled out of a production flock. Give them a nice life for a few years while you expand your experience with the local sheep scene and just learn the basics of sheep care.

Ah, Rebecca, this is what I have been

considering. My current plan is to have sheep to the grass down and eventually to turn into meat...and to learn on. I'm certain I have over-analyzed this but since I can't get past coyote fear I'm still at the how about and what if stage. Nice to know though that my notion is good even if my progress stinks.

 

Thanks.

Chris Ostrowski

[Dixie_Girl]

Chris, just out of curiosity, where abouts in the central valley are you? We lived in Merced before coming here. I am originally from Texas but DH was born in Merced. Linda

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

Chris, just out of curiosity, where abouts in the central valley are you? We lived in Merced before coming here. I am originally from Texas but DH was born in Merced. Linda

Norther than Merced!

I am on the eastern edge of Elk Grove, which is struggling manfully not become another part of Sacatomatoes but will, eventually.

Chris

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Chris, our new area apparently has a LOT of coyote. We live about five miles from an extensive state gamelands. I saw one dead on the road this weekend, gave me a shiver!

 

Last night it was warm so I opened my window. All night I was entertained by the sound of my guard dogs travelling all over our new farm, signaling to each other as they tag teamed guarding the flock and patroling the boundaries. My bedroom window is only yards from the new ewe pasture (I love our new house!) so it was comforting to glance out at various times through the night and watch the activities of the Marremmas.

 

This is something to consider when you look into the possibility of getting sheep. Many sheep people keep guardian animals - sheep are so vulnerable that your only real options in a predator-heavy area are guard animals or keeping them behind Fort Knox fencing (and even that is not as effective as guard animals in general).

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Irena Farm:

 

This is something to consider when you look into the possibility of getting sheep. Many sheep people keep guardian animals - sheep are so vulnerable that your only real options in a predator-heavy area are guard animals or keeping them behind Fort Knox fencing (and even that is not as effective as guard animals in general). [/QB]

<sigh>

Life is just a very large game of dominoes, I think.

Chris O