Meeker Classic photos

[Valhalla]

Andrea, from my personal experience, these western range ewes hated to have the dog flank up past their shoulder. They tended to want to stop and fight a lot more with the dogs that got to flanky. They preferred a dog that just trotted along behind them taking short flanks when needed. There were some that wanted to fight or wanted to run no matter what though. In the semi-final round a lot of people had trouble turning the post as the sheep didn't want to come down to close to the crowd (that was my impression anyway?). It was a lot of back and forth on one side of the post before finally heading them in the direction of the drive away panels.

 

Laura, you have much more experience with these kind of sheep than all is easterners. Care to give us a few tips on how to handle them best?

[L and M Ranch]

Deb, thanks. Sure could be fun coming up with different captions to go along with that picture.

 

Andrea,

My mom was up there and bought the picture for me for my b-day.

 

On the range sheep. You have to take into account that I had never even seen sheep before the dogs (my family has been in the cattle industry since before I was born) so it's still pretty limited experience. I also have no other kind of sheep to compare them with.

Seems to me that they need to understand the dog has control of them from the get go. A dog that puts steady, even pressure on them and walks in instead of flanking very much seems to have the best luck with them. A dog that overflanks much will also have a hard time with them. But, if they are running, they usually won't stop without a dog coming well past the shoulder to take control of them. If a dog does much stopping (especially on their belly) they are usually quick to turn and fight. If a dog flanks off of them in a stand off, they will very quickly read that as a sign of weakness and push on the dog. At the pen it is very important to stay back and let the dog do the lion's share of the work, especially well into the mouth of the pen. It's way to easy to push the sheep onto your dog at the pen and shed. If you move too quickly, they'll bolt, usually in different directions.

I've never worked hair sheep of any kind and people keep telling me that my dog's will probably need an adjustment period if I ever get a chance to work on them. I've heard that the flight zone on them is quite a bit bigger than on woolies. Range ewes can run like the wind but they also know they can fight and are willing to do so if they deem necessary.

I don't do much shed lambing but it's always fun trying to get my girls into a barn if I need to for some reason. They are quite used to people as I work my dogs on at least some of them almost daily. But, the barn is a different story!

 

Christine, had you heard anything about the sheep in the semi-finals being re-run from the prelim's? They acted like it to me. The gal that came out at Zac acted like she'd run a dog off at some point. She came out pretty confident of herself. Also seemed to me like they knew where the exhaust was a bit better. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong though.

[blackacre]

That actually sounds a lot like the sheep at Grass Creek. The sheep there come from an uninhabited island in the St. Lawrence where they are more or less left to fend for themselves against the coyotes and are never worked in anything but large groups until the trial. An easy-going dog that just kind of trots along behind does the best--at least until the pen, when all bets are off. Dogs with eye or the wrong kind of presence will make them turn and fight.

As for hair sheep, you would have to search long and hard for fresh undogged ones around the north east United States (we actually mostly run on wool sheep up here in Canada.) Usually, the difficulty is laying down a really top notch run, a 90's trial rather than a 70's, as you described, and getting a full points shed on sheep that have been worked a good many times and know all the tricks. I can think of only two exceptions: Terry's sheep, that she never worked and ran like the wind to the four corners if you merely stepped onto her field, and Jeanne's sheep the first year or two she had her trial. Those buggers would bolt and run like hell for the barn at the merest tap. Turns were riduculous, sheds had to be done from yards away.

A

[NancyO]

This is the first year I've gone to Grass Creek, I thought the sheep acted pretty much like wool sheep do, except for the occ rogue sheep that got marked and pulled after they ran once. But I heard alot of comments that the sheep were pretty good this year compared to previous years.

 

To me (with my limited experience) the sheep during the prelim rounds at the finals, tended to mill in circles. The sheep on the left would circle around to the right. There didn't seem to be alot of sheep moving straight down on the fetch, but seemed to move more in a circling pattern down the fetch.There were no leaders, the fetch line may have been fairly straight, but the sheep went down the fetch line, circling as they went(hope I'm explaining this OK) Someone explained to me that this was because they are use to milling in very large groups.

 

What did surprise me, was how quickly this behavior changed in the sheep after only being run 2-3 times. By the time the sheep were used for the nursery rounds, the circling behavior seemed to be gone,but not the willingness to stop and/or fight.

 

I agree with Christine that the sheep, no matter when they were run, did not like the dog heading them or even flanking to thier shoulder. That's why I knew we were in big trouble in my nursery run, when I realized we were driving the fetch gates (and what a lovely line it was:) and had to head the sheep to turn them 90 degrees to put them back on line to the drive gates.

 

Nancy O

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by L and M Ranch:

Christine, had you heard anything about the sheep in the semi-finals being re-run from the prelim's? They acted like it to me. The gal that came out at Zac acted like she'd run a dog off at some point. She came out pretty confident of herself. Also seemed to me like they knew where the exhaust was a bit better. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong though.

Yes, I had heard that as well. They worked better than they did in the prelim's, but you're right - there were a few that still chose to stand a dog off. Rook had an overly confident one as well in the semi's. She lowered her head to test him, he bit her on the nose, let go and she went on with no more problems.

 

I also thought those sheep took less pressure to move off people in the semi's. I had so much difficulty with the marked shed and now that I think about it, I feel I put too much pressure on the sheep myself and was always pushing them towards my dog (and hence, the edge of the ring). In hindsight, I should have kept my dog on his feet more and maybe I could have gotten those two #*@^ing collared ewes away from the un-collared's. Live and learn.

 

Andrea, you'd said about the Grass Creek trial sheep that dogs with eye or the wrong kind of presence would make them turn and fight. You are so right about presence and it was the same at the Finals.

 

From what I saw, dogs with a lot of power and/or presence were challenged. I think certain sheep were uncomfortable having that much behind them that it made them want to try a fight. There were plenty of dogs I saw, that have loads of power and presence, but were still tested. What else could it be?

 

I was told that if a sheep challenges a dog and a dog has to grip (to move it or defend itself), then there is something missing in that dog. I completely disagree. There are certain sheep that will challenge any dog (weak or strong), whether provoked or unprovoked, in order to test the dog. How the dog handles the situation tells me if something is missing in the dog. If the dog gives ground or runs away, yes there is something missing in that dog and the sheep read it correctly. If the dog continues to walk into the sheep, stands his ground or gives a clean grip, then no, there is nothing missing in that dog and it was doing what was needed. Most likely that sheep will not test that particular dog again, but may test another dog later on. As the saying goes: If you want to know about a dog, ask the sheep.

[Pearse]

Originally posted by Valhalla:

Hey Pearse - "Mr. Double Lift Finalist after only 6 or so Open trials". How ya doin'?

 

Do you have any of those pics from the badlands handy? I'd love to see them.

Christine

 

There are a few on my site http://www.comebye.net If you go to the gallery and under "Pearse's Photos", they are in the "Highland SDT" photo album.

 

Andrea,

 

You did meet Christie last summer when she came up for the Richmond Hill trial (which I also ran at - total train wreck) but had to head back right after. Christie told me all about it including the well apportioned "courtesy cart" just like at the golf course. Sorry I missed it. I believe some dogs were worked too. I have some recollections of the finals on the front page of the site and also a blog I was posting from the Finals via cell phone under "National Finals"

 

Pearse

[blackacre]

Nancy,

While I've never been out west, other than Alberta and BC, I've seen the circling thing a few times with sheep from a large undogged flock. I once spent several long and painful minutes trying to load a commercial flock into some pretty inadequate set out facilities, to no avail, while they danced around the Maypole just outside the gate in the manner you describe. No leaders, as you say.

I too heard the sheep were not up to their usual standard at Grass Creek this year.

What actually amazes me is how quickly even range ewes will get with the program. Witness the Bluegrass sheep. By day three they are meekly penning on the novice field. How weird is that?

Christine, the more I do this, the less I think I know about presence and power. I think my mind got blown for the first time at Grass Creek years ago, where dogs I'd seen run off the field at other trials were making the cut. And I've seen a similar situation many times since. So, does a dog that does not induce a fight actually have more power than one that does? Berhow's Nick comes to mind in this category. You remember the story Stormy Winters tells about him? I forget the trial, but apparently the sheep were bolting off the top all day. It was carnage. The judge's hands were tied, since they'd never finish if he granted reruns to all who deserved them. Anyway, Bill and Nick came up, the sheep bolted as usual, then stopped and waited for Nick at the fetch gate. It was as if they said to each other, "wait a minute guys, it's Nick."

A

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by blackacre:

... dogs I'd seen run off the field at other trials were making the cut. So, does a dog that does not induce a fight actually have more power than one that does?

Andrea, same thing happened at the Finals. It's a mystery. I guess these sheep feel no threat from the weaker dogs? Or because the dogs lack that certain kind of threatening presence the sheep react to? But what makes the sheep want to move off the dog in the first place if it has no power? What about dogs with a lot of eye? Then there is the issue of power vs. confidence. You can have a dog with little or no power but because he/she is loaded with confidence, the sheep don't read the dog's weakness. UGH!! Too many variables!

 

Pearse, great pics! I especially like the badlands6-08! Was that the early morning shot you got up for?

[Deb Mickey]

Great photos Peasre & Christine! It almost takes me there!

 

I'm loving the talk on handling the sheep - it's all very interesting! Confidence, power, presence and how the sheep perceives the dog - it's what makes sheepdogging so fascinating to me! Tell me more!

[Pearse]

Yes. I have the left side of that picture cropped centered on the Sphinx- like rock, enlarged to 8 x 10, and printed on watercolor paper, hanging on the wall of my office. The whole color scheme that day (it rained on and off all day) was very pastel and watercolor-like.

 

As for the dog/power issue, there's a quote from Seneca (dead Roman):

 

"He who has great power should use it lightly. "

 

I never saw Berhow's Nick run but I have heard many stories and I have it on good authority that he certainly didn't lack for power but moved sheep with a light touch by never applying an ounce more power or pressure than was required. So, it may not be a case of a "weak" dog moving sheep by being non-threatening. Were that the case, the sheep would go where they pleased and the dog would be reduced to following. It may be more a case of some dogs only showing enough power to move the sheep they are on.

 

I do think confidence is key. A dog that is naturally confident will be able to use all the power it has. A dog that lacks confidence may need time and reassurance to grow into what ever power it has. Those two dogs might look quite different as Nursery dogs and as six year olds.

 

Pearse

[Deb Mickey]

What's your thoughts on dogs that seem to have immense power and push not having confidence? Could the *show* of power and push be a facade overlaying the lack of confidence? Justa a wondering...

[Valhalla]

Deb, I agree. There are dogs that seem to show immense power and push... but do they really? I think some dogs will be really pushy because they lack confidence. They move and flank fast because that is the only way they can move the sheep. Once the handler gains control of the dog - correcting him/her to slow down and pace, etc, the handler can take away the push and find there is nothing left. They took away the push to find that lack of confidence.

[L and M Ranch]

I love to discuss the role power and/or confidence plays with dogs and stock. Unfortunately, I'm getting ready to leave and won't be back until late tomorrow so will probably miss most of it. But, I have to throw my two cents in first.

 

I wrote an article awhile back on what I think makes a dog a good cow/calf dog. It's on my website (listed below) if anyone wants to read it.

 

I trained horses for many years before training dogs. I see a lot of similiarities between the two now. I think it comes down to an animal being respectful but not fearful. If a dog has enough confidence (either through genetics, experience, or both) they will end up with stock that aren't scared to death and thus always getting ready for a fight.

 

I also think a dog needs to read their stock really well so that they can gain confidence. I work a lot of cattle with my dogs. We aren't dog breaking fresh cattle every day but enough every year to see what works and what doesn't. It's very important for a dog to put just enough pressure on to get the results they need without just bullying. We don't often use really young dogs when dog breaking new cattle as they haven't developed that skill yet. Sometimes adrenaline gets in the way of good sense.

 

This probably sounds kind of silly but I truly believe that a dog must learn to respect the stock it's working before they'll have the confidence to earn the stock's respect.

[Pearse]

Originally posted by L and M Ranch:

This probably sounds kind of silly but I truly believe that a dog must learn to respect the stock it's working before they'll have the confidence to earn the stock's respect.

Doesn't sound silly at all. Substitute "manager" for "dog" and "employee" for "stock" and you've got yourself the beginnings of a corporate best seller; "Everything I Need to Know About Running a Fortune 500 Company, I Learned from My Border Collie".

 

Pearse

[Valhalla]

Very good points Laura!

 

When ya gonna start writing that book Pearse?

[blackacre]

Hi Pearse, yep that's right, we worked some dogs, laid into the hospitality cart and got down to some serious exchanges of regional gossip. However, I think that was when Christie was here for the second Richmond Hill trial, because otherwise you would have come too, no?

As to power etc, I agree we need to allow for confidence, but I would hypothesize that the most important element is the ability to modulate power to fit the circumstances. More or less what Laura has in mind when she talks about a dog being able to read the stock, especially in critical situations like working cow-calf pairs.

A

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by blackacre:

I would hypothesize that the most important element is the ability to modulate power to fit the circumstances.

Excellent statement Andrea!

[blackacre]

Thanks. I'm still bemused that it mostly happens on the toughest, freshest sheep, however. Or maybe it's just more noticeable then?

Anyway, I sent you a PM with Dal and Kate's email address.

A

[Belleview]

I'll jump in on this one...a topic I feel like I deal with every time I step on the field!

 

One of the most valuable lessons I've ever had happened two years ago at one of Andrea's "sheepcamps". I've already told both Andrea & Scott this personally. I don't even remember what the lesson started out to be about- but, as luck would have it, I had one old ewe who just didn't want to participate & kept stopping, turning & challenging my dog.

 

The point of the lesson became not whether or not my dog would grip. That was the easy part. It was so much deeper than that! It was all about how to manage a situation like this in order to ideally, avoid the grip, but if that fails & the grip HAS to happen to 1) present a picture to the judge to prove that you deserve to stay on the field after your dog grips, and 2) manage the "after-grip" properly so that the whole situation doesn't just keep happening over & over.

 

I had been reading the post-grip situation completely wrong & putting way too much pressure on the sheep just after the grip. I was told this was just teaching the sheep that if she was gripped, and then gave in & turned, the pressure just came back. Thus, she was not rewarded & in her sheep mind, she really had no choice but to turn & fight again. I was totally amazed at how much finesse & timing there was in properly handling the precious seconds just after a grip and how important it was to take the pressure off immediately after the grip & then bring in back on gently at just the right time. It was one of those moments when you realize that there is a whole other level of handling above where you are!

 

I still chuckle at the memory of Scott standing behind me as we watched the dog-ewe stand off develop and him quietly telling me to ask my dog up to grip...and them immediately, "LIE HIM DOWN. LIE HIM DOWN!"

 

I have one of those dogs who seems to "invite" a fight and this lesson has allowed me to stay on a trial field more times that I can remember in the last two seasons. It's been just facinating to work thru.

[Belleview]

Oops. Forgot to sign.

 

Lori Cunningham

Belleview Farm

Milton, PA

[Pipedream Farm]

Lori,

 

Great post.

 

I especially like: "It was one of those moments when you realize that there is a whole other level of handling above where you are!"

 

Ain't that ALWAYS the truth.

 

Renee and I had one of those moments (for us) a couple of years ago watching Flo down Moss while working a ewe that was refusing to move. "How'd she know downing Moss would make that ewe move on?" Or should I say, let that ewe move on.

 

Mark

 

BTW We know who lives at Bellview. :eek:

[blackacre]

Yes, I remember that. It was very cool. Unfortunately, I think I was doing something else at the time and wasn't able to give it my full attention.

So, after the grip and the lie down, was the key how long you left the dog there? And what signalled that it was OK to continue? And finally, and most importantly, did you discuss with Scott the situation where a lie down might be read as a sign of weakness rather than a release of pressure? I see this a lot with very sour dog broke sheep that have learned to beat the dog and need to be told more than once. It's as if they can't believe a dog would actually dare to try to make them do anything.

A

[Belleview]

Having to think thru replying to your post is a reminder of how complicated this situation can be...and of course, you have about 2 seconds to make a decision as to how to handle it on the trial field, right?!

 

We didn't get into the question of whether the lie down might come off as a weakness. It was more in the nature of "imminent grip/or the avoidance thereof!" I suspect the advice in this situation is the same regardless of the individual dog, IF you can trust your dog *will* come on, and/or grip cleanly when asked.

 

The big key is watching the sheep, the one that was creating the challenge, as well as the others in the packet. Since my problem was all about my being too quick to ask my dog up, patience was key. Once the ewe turned (either by just taking the pressure off via a lie down, or by a grip), I was told to allow her time to commit to moving off--with no push from the dog (the reward, so to speak), all the better if when the ewe turned, she was drawn up with the others in the packet.

 

When you ask your dog up, if you have the option to flank it off just enough that you can bring the pressure onto a different sheep, rather than the one you just tangled with, that's a good thing-- hoping that trouble-ewe will get caught up in the flow of the others & continue moving off. Again, all this is happening within a few yards & in a few seconds. I think, ideally, if you can manage through this *crisis* situation, you hope that the sheep will move off just enough that either the pressure in the field (or some other known-only-to-sheep-factor) changes to encourage them to keep moving, or you hope they *learned* the lesson that the dog is in control, but fair, and they fall in line accordingly. Rushing things to the point of setting up another fight is double bad as you've prob. exhausted most judge's grip-tolerance & the sheep win again.

 

I jokingly told Scott that when I've gotten into this situation, I replay the lesson in my mind. I think it consisted of just three sentences:

 

Ask him up. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN! Watch your sheep. LIE HIM DOWN! Watch your sheep. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN! Watch. Watch. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN!

 

Almost like being there, right?

[Belleview]

Having to think thru replying to your post is a reminder of how complicated this situation can be...and of course, you have about 2 seconds to make a decision as to how to handle it on the trial field, right?!

 

We didn't get into the question of whether the lie down might come off as a weakness. It was more in the nature of "imminent grip/or the avoidance thereof!" I suspect the advice in this situation is the same regardless of the individual dog, IF you can trust your dog *will* come on, and/or grip cleanly when asked.

 

The big key is watching the sheep, the one that was creating the challenge, as well as the others in the packet. Since my problem was all about my being too quick to ask my dog up, patience was key. Once the ewe turned (either by just taking the pressure off via a lie down, or by a grip), I was told to allow her time to commit to moving off--with no push from the dog (the reward, so to speak), all the better if when the ewe turned, she was drawn up with the others in the packet.

 

When you ask your dog up, if you have the option to flank it off just enough that you can bring the pressure onto a different sheep, rather than the one you just tangled with, that's a good thing-- hoping that trouble-ewe will get caught up in the flow of the others & continue moving off. Again, all this is happening within a few yards & in a few seconds. I think, ideally, if you can manage through this *crisis* situation, you hope that the sheep will move off just enough that either the pressure in the field (or some other known-only-to-sheep-factor) changes to encourage them to keep moving, or you hope they *learned* the lesson that the dog is in control, but fair, and they fall in line accordingly. Rushing things to the point of setting up another fight is double bad as you've prob. exhausted most judge's grip-tolerance & the sheep win again.

 

I jokingly told Scott that when I've gotten into this situation, I replay the lesson in my mind. I think it consisted of just three sentences:

 

Ask him up. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN! Watch your sheep. LIE HIM DOWN! Watch your sheep. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN! Watch. Watch. LIE HIM DOWN! LIE HIM DOWN!

 

Almost like being there, right?

[blackacre]

I love you girl. I'm grinning as I type this--that is exactly how Scott would say it, and now I can hear him saying it too.

Anyway, off to a wee local trial for Hobbes' debut post- floating chip diagnosis. Hope he holds up. Well, the trial is small but the field is big and the sheep are from a flock of 700 undogged commercial sheep. Yum yum.

A