Dual Registration?

[Northof49]

Thanks for that information. It looks like Canada at least has a workable (is it?) system for separating show dogs from working dogs.

 

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The thing is here in Canada by law you are only allowed one registry per breed of any animal. Since the CBCA is the registry for Border Collies in Canada, they cannot be registered with the Canadian Kennel Club, and therefore are not eligible for CKC sanctioned events, which include conformation, and unfortunately obedience, tracking and agility.

 

Any Canadians wanting to do conformation with their Border COllies have to either show them at the few UKC shows in Canada or go down to the States. As such, I don't know how many Section B registered dogs there would be with CBCA. Karen Curtis at CBCA would certainly be able to tell you. I can't imagine anyone with "conformation" Border Collies up here in Canada interested in registering with the CBCA - they would just register their dogs with AKC.

 

One thing that really bugs me about the CBCA registry is that a lot of the stockdog people that voted the CBCA registry in won't use it. They continue to register their dog solely with the American registries - AIBC, NASDS and ABC, because it gets them around the Animal Pedigree Act. As far as I am concerned, they should be supporting the registry they voted in. We have an excellent Canadian registry for our dogs and they should be supporting it.

[blackacre]

Actually, Nof49, the provisions you quoted were a surprise to me. I have never heard of a CBCA dog being designated either Section A or B. Seems to be irrelevant since most of the pet and sports breeders probably had their dogs registered with one of the A category registries before the CBCA began registering dogs anyway.

 

And as to using the registry, all my dogs are registered ABCA and CBCA. Most Canadian trial people that I know do this too.

I would also pooint out that there were a lot of problems getting papers out of the CBCA until recently, so this doubtless influenced the decision on which registry to use. Turn around time seems to have improved greatly.

Andrea

[Northof49]

I would also pooint out that there were a lot of problems getting papers out of the CBCA until recently, so this doubtless influenced the decision on which registry to use. Turn around time seems to have improved greatly.

 

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When CBCA first was up and running all the registration of dogs were sent down to ABC, but that didn't last very long, before CBCA was able to do it for themselves. I know that's where some of the delays were at first.

 

I have been using CBCA to register my dogs and transfer ownership for over 5 years, and have always had prompt excellent service. I have never had problems. However, all of my paperwork that goes in is always correct. A lot of delays in any registry are caused by errors on the paperwork sent in by the breeder.

 

From the phone calls I get all the time from people that aren't getting their CBCA papers on pups or adults they have purchased, it is due to the fact that the people they have purchased from, appear to not be understanding the registration procedures in Canada (or don't care). They are trying to register their dogs with CBCA as they would if they were registering with an American registry and the rules just simply don't match up.

[Eileen Stein]

As I understand it, the Section B dogs in the CBCA are the same category of dogs that the ABCA would consider ineligible for registration in the US -- those with one or more ancestors registered only with the AKC or another conformation registry, and not with a working registry. In Canada, by law, the CBCA is required to register such dogs, so they give them a separate "B" designation. Dogs can move from Section B to Section A through a "Reclassification on Merit" system which is analogous to the "Registration on Merit" procedure by which the same kind of dogs (or indeed, any unregistered dogs) could be registered on merit (ROM) in the ABCA. I believe there have been few if any reclassifications on merit in the CBCA, just as there have been very few ROMs in the ABCA.

[Northof49]

Eileen - it depends on the registry of the Sire and the Dam, not the registry of any one of the ancestors as I understand it.

[Eileen Stein]

I think you're right about that as regards the CBCA, Northof49, but in the ABCA it generally boils down to the same thing, since if an ancestor like the dam's dam (just to pick an example) was KC only, then the dam herself wouldn't have been eligible for ABCA registration either and would have had to stay with the KC. Whether AIBC and NASDS impose the same restriction, I don't really know. I just don't see that many AIBC and NASDS registrations anymore. But in general I think it's a difference in wording of the rule ("either parent" in the CBCA, "any ancestor" in the ABCA) that usually doesn't result in much of a difference in practice.

[Northof49]

Eileen I suppose it really is a moot point in the end, as I have never come across a NASDS, AIBC or ABC pedigree that had any dogs in it that were registered with a registry other that a "stock" registry. I don't know how that would work to have one stuck in there somewhere. Anyone???

 

I am not sure what would happen if someone got a Section B registration with CBCA and then submitted a registration to NASDS or AIBC. I would imagine it would get bounced?

[sea4th]

Bear with me. The background here is relevent.

 

Some years ago, I got a border collie from England out of KC parents. His sire and dam were the first generation not dual registered, i.e., KC & ISDS. On the top side were dual reg. dogs for about 3 generations. On the bottom, I think grandparents were dual reg. The rest were all ISDS, with some nice dogs in his pedigree.

 

Much of my dog experience had been with the AKC. Although I ILP'd this dog with the intention of showing him in obedience, I really began to seek info on the working bc. The more I talked, the more I read, I came to the conclusion that registration with a working registry would mean much more to me than a KC or AKC registration.

 

At that time, the border collie was not "recognized" by AKC. At that time, ABC did not have it's ROM program in place either. ABC told me in no uncertain terms, any dog with a KC reg. is not welcome in their ranks. OK, that left me to explore the other two registries at that time, AIBC & NASDS. AIBC was having some problems, so I never got responses from them. NASDS said they would register provided the dog was evaluated by someone they approved of, i.e., someone they felt was knowledgable about working border collies. To apply for registration, I needed a video of the dog working while he was being evaluated. They also had paperwork that had to be completed by the evaluator.

 

I lined everything up. The evaluator is a well known working bc person. The dog was evaluated in outrun, lift & fetch. I didn't know the drive, so we weren't evaluated on that. They asked about power & keeness and there were other things that I can't remember right now. It was not a pass/fail, but an actual evaluation. This written evaluation along with the tape was submitted to NASDS for consideration of registration. Actually, I think my dog was one of the last that Arthur Allen took part in evaluating.

 

Obviously, it's not as stringent as ABC's ROM program, but it still meant a lot to me then and it still does now.

 

NASDS will register a litter if an NASDS bitch were bred to a dog reg. the same or an ISDS dog.

As far as I know, those are the only 2 recoginized for reg. purposes.

 

So, there you go, those of you who up until now were not acquainted with NASDS. The only sure way to find out is to get in touch with them. I'm merely relaying everything I learned in that process.

 

I don't know the historical backgrounds of how these registries came to be, except that there was some friction and splitting of the ranks somewhere along the line. It might not as prestigious to have a dog registered with one of the "other" two registries, but if it wasn't for NASDS, I might not have left AKC & never been forced to scrutinize the effect that such a registry has had on not just the bc, but a lot of other breeds.

 

Vicki

[Northof49]

This written evaluation along with the tape was submitted to NASDS for consideration of registration

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Hi Viki - your dog was then basically a dog ROM'd with NASDS, so yes that would make sense, but in the normal course of things your dog would not have been registered. Congratulations by the way.

 

Digressing a bit - does anyone here remember when the NASDS required testing every second generation or so? I really hate to date myself (ordered a new walker last week, ha ha), but I remember in the 1970s at least I think it used to be that:

Bitch A and Stud Dog A were registered with NASDS all the pups would be registerable with NASDS.

Then Bitch B out of that litter was bred and that litter of pups would be registerable with NASDS.

Then Bitch C out of Bitch B would be bred, but her litter couldn't be registered until Bitch C and the stud used was assessed and an evaluation was sent into NASDS.

 

I remember being out looking at a litter of pups when the evaluator came out to assess the dam and sire for NASDS so the pups would be registerable with them. The dam and sire were registered with the NASDS, so were their parents and grandparents, etc. I also remember a couple of other litters where the dam and sire were registered with NASDS and the breeder had advised me that he had to get them assessed and evaluated before the litter could be registered with NASDS.

 

Anyone else remember this?

[Pam Wolf]

My first dogs were AIBC and that was in the late 70's and early 80's. I heard of the testing and also the problems which made it of little value and hence why it was abandoned. If the kinks could be worked out, perhaps that is what is needed today.

 

Pam

[Northof49]

Thanks Pam - glad someone else also remembers the "old" days. My dogs were registered with AIBC as well back then.

 

I imagine some of the logistics that were tough to deal with, would be to have enough evaluators around so that they weren't required to travel extensively, and it was pretty much a volunteer thing from what I remember. I know the one evaluator that I watched was a well known trialler and breeder back then. He was there for about five hours assessing the dogs.

[Pam Wolf]

I was told that at some point it switched from having evaluators to where you could 'certify' your own dogs. Apparently getting evaluators to volunteer and to perhaps certify their friend's dogs while not certifying those from someone they didn't like was also a problem.

 

Pam