Border Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Hello, I'm not a usual poster to this message board but I have some questions on herding and sheep and can't think of a more appropriate place than here. I got my first bc 4 years ago, a second soon followed. Now my husband and I are in the process of selling our house to find another on some land. I'm involved in training and showing in agility and obedience and just recently started to get interested in the idea of herding. It started out as just a bit of curiosity on how the boys would react to sheep and has turned into something that we would like to get more involved with. My questions are listed below, I will be most grateful to anyone that will take the time to give their opinion. 1. What is the minimum # of acres one must have to be able to do a little bit of herding training? 2. What is the minimum # of sheep one can have and expect the dogs to be able to learn some herding skills with? 3. Can someone recommend a book on how to care for sheep? 4. What breed of sheep is good for a novice handler and dog. Hopefully a easy, hardy, hair sheep (no shearing!) breed? I live in Michigan, plenty of cold and snow if climate matters to what breed. 5. Please don't laugh at this question, but we go away camping (with the dogs) quite a bit in the summer, can sheep be left by themselves over the weekend? I know horses need daily attention. In regards to acreage, I'm not interested in a sheep farm This would be a small hobby farm. I can't think of anymore questions at this moment. The nearest herding instructor is a couple hours away and I think if I'm ever going to be able to get anything accomplished with herding we will have to get some of our own sheep to work in-between visits to the herding instructor. Trisha Eifert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Other may be better suited to answer you, but I can give you my 2 cents. 1. What is the minimum # of acres one must have to be able to do a little bit of herding training? From what I have heard, 1 sheep need 1 acre with good grass. For food. For training you should have a larger field. But I know some people which only have 10-20 acres. 2. What is the minimum # of sheep one can have and expect the dogs to be able to learn some herding skills with? No less than 3. And to progress in training you need to have different type of sheep. Dog friendly ones to start with, and more flighty sheep when the dog progress. 3. Can someone recommend a book on how to care for sheep? http://www.workingsheepdog.org/ may have some. 4. What breed of sheep is good for a novice handler and dog. Hopefully a easy, hardy, hair sheep (no shearing!) breed? I live in Michigan, plenty of cold and snow if climate matters to what breed. Someone else have to answer this one. 5. Please don't laugh at this question, but we go away camping (with the dogs) quite a bit in the summer, can sheep be left by themselves over the weekend? I know horses need daily attention. If they have food and water, that should not be a problem. ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Hi Trisha, I don't own any land at all. I have the use of 30 acres of unfenced ground, plus contracts to graze an additional 150. I'd say that the amount of ground you need to train your dog depends on what you want to train him for. If you want to have a good open trial dog, I think at some point you need to get him working on larger fields -- say 20 acres plus. But most of the training of dogs is best done on smaller fields -- say one to five acres. Depending on where you live in Michigan and how much you're willing to provide hay during dry seasons and winter, you could probably run as many as 10 ewes to the acre. If you get down to much less than five to the acre, you'll probably have to do some mowing. I think you need at least 15 sheep to train a dog. Working on a group of 20 to 50 is better. But there are plenty of folks out there who do it with fewer. Hair sheep are a cruel hoax. They often need shearing, as many don't shed their wooly lamb coat properly. They are not resistant to parasites, they do need vaccinations -- in short, they are sheep, just like every other breed. Get real sheep. I'd recommend North County Cheviots or Finn-Dorset crosses. Get a $30 pair of hand shears and learn how to use them. If I can shear 20 sheep in a morning, anyone can do it. The best basic sheep book I've read is called "The Sheep Raiser's Manual" by William Kreusi, whose surname I may have spelled wrong. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Hi Bill. 5 sheep per acre, that was much. Maybe we aren't speaking of the same size. How big is an acre? I thought it was like what we call "maal" which is 10*10 meters. ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Hi Thor, An acre is 43,560 square feet, or about four tenths of a hectare. I believe that the unit of measure you're talking about is an "are," which is 100 square meters, or one one-hundredth of a hectare. If we were to convert my stocking rate of five ewes to the acre to ewes to the are, it would be ... um ... about .12, or just over a tenth of what you're saying. If the unit of measure you're describing is 1,000 square meters or a tenth of a hectare, then we're right in the same ballpark. Stocking densities vary widely in the US (and in Europe). There are places in Texas where a ewe needs five or six acres, and there are places on the East Coast where 10 per acre isn't unreasonable with intensive grazing management. Most places fall somewhere in between, depending on rainfall, climate, etc. One also needs to take into consideration whether winter feed is needed, and if so whether that feed is to be produced from the same ground that the sheep graze. The figures I'm citing assume that all winter feed is purchased from the outside, which is the only sensible thing to do with a small flock in the US. Also, my figures are for a ewe with just under two lambs up until weaning. It's presumed that lambs are weaned either onto a feedlot or onto other ground. Lamb finishing on grass reduces the stocking rate of ewes, but increases the stocking rate of sheep per acre. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-21-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Bill, Wouldn't it be more cost efficient to raise your own hay on the land with less sheep, or does it end up being more profitable with more sheep, that is if you can grow hay on the land. I am getting close to having to make a decision on that , so why I am interested in this. Right now I'm looking at rotational grazing, and haying my excess in the spring. The more sheep I can stock the better, and hay is generally pretty reasonable in my area, generally not more than three dollars a bale for squares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ts Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Trisha, I also live in Michigan. There are 2 USBCHA directors from Michigan. Jeanne Weaver and Dal Kratzer and both give lessons. Their accomplishments are capabilities and well known nationally. The Michigan Border Collie Association is having its annual meeting the first week-end in February at Jeanne's. They do various fun-days etc. during the year. Would love to have you come. The Michigan Sheepbreeders are putting on their annual Shepard's weekend complete with synposium and big trade show the 1st week-end in January. Guest speakers will abound. I know there a sheep producr panel to answer questions on raising haired sheep and one on grazing. Dr. Rook will be presenting the sheep health issues. You sound like you are more interested in getting sheep to work your dogs on than to sell for a profit. You may want to speak to some handlers in Michigan and start out with some previously dogged sheep. Although Bill does not like the haired sheep, and they do have their faults when training open level dogs--for economics purposes; you can't beat them. With 4 acres, you would buy hay versus raise it. I have 40 acres and still buy all the hay. IF you are interested in any of the above events, email me and I will send you phone numbers for the contact people. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 "Although Bill does not like the haired sheep, and they do have their faults when training open level dogs--for economics purposes; you can't beat them." Terry: What are the faults you mention? I have sold all my hair sheep, but I am still curious. Thanks, charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Hi, On the subject of hair sheep, I think it really depends on what you get. We started out with (almost) straight barb, wild wacky sheep that were either totally dog broke to a fault (fine for the youngsters but our dogs outgrew them pretty quickly) or just plain psycho. Other hair sheep breeds like Kathadin, St. Croix, Dorper tend to be sane and more of a "real" sheep feel to them. My favorite ewe is a Dorper/Barb cross, she leads the sheep in conspiracies against the more advanced dogs, something they neeed more of, but is reasonable enough to work youngsters with. And has awesome fat lambs All of my sheep now, except one, are less barb and more Kathadin/St. Croix/Dorper and they are nice sheep to train with and the lambs are big enough. They stay light for driving and all you have to do is remove some of the leaders if you want a challenge. And they eat next to nothing,we have no pastures/haying here, so I buy hay but 4-5 bales per 5 head per month, a little grain after sheep practice, is all it takes to keep them hog fat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danni Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Thanks for the explaination on unit measurements Bill F; I am familiar with acres and hectares, but an "are" is something I had not heard of, well at least I know what size my back garden is now. Danni - France Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Whether to make hay or buy it is generally a no-brainer until you're using 2,000 small square bales or more per year. Just price used haymaking equipment, figure what your time is worth, and ask yourself if you have the sort of life in which you can drop everything that you're doing for three to five days in June with little or no notice and mow, ted, rake, bale, haul, and stack hay. A good used tractor, mower-conditioner, tedder, rake, baler and wagons will cost you at least $15,000, and you can probably plan on spending $2,000 to $5,000 a year on fuel, maintenance, and repairs. If you figure that your equipment will need to be replaced on a five year schedule, that means you're spending $5,000 to $8,000 per year on machinery and fuel alone. Then you need to consider labor and land costs. There's also the fact that you can sell sheep if there's a drought to adjust your numbers to the amount of grass available. Hay equipment costs the same to own and virtually the same to run whether you're standing waist-deep in timothy and clover or looking at ankle-high fescue. You can't sell part of your haybine or one wheel off the tractor. The book I mentioned above has a pretty nifty set of enterprise budgets for the consideration of making hay versus purchasing. I think in most cases you'd be better off investing in more sheep, and spending more time looking after them rather than putting time and money into iron. Let someone else make the hay, pay them a fair price for it, and be glad they're doing it rather than you. (Another possibility if you can arrange it and find a reliable contractor is to have your hay custom-made from your own land. In some cases you can do this for a share of the crop, in others you keep all the hay and pay X per bale or X per hour.) --------------- Part Deux -- why I don't like hair sheep I have yet to see a flock of hair sheep that lives up to the billing that some of the breeders give them. In most respects, they are generally about the same as well-selected wool sheep in terms of parasite resistance, resistance to foot rot, need to medication, etc. The problem is that they cost 15 to 20 percent more to purchase. So the only cost they actually avoid is shearing (and many of them do still need shearing, at least once in their lives) which is $3 per year, but they cost as much as $40 more than similar quality breeding stock of a wooly variety. I can shear a sheep for 13 years on $40. Most don't live that long. Commercially, hair sheep are getting better, but are still only okay as a source of lamb carcasses. Their muscling is better than a Finnsheep or a Romanov, but not as good as most maternal breeds such as Dorsets, Romneys, Targhees, etc., and does not even approach the muscling seen in the terminal sire breeds such as Texel or Suffolk. Their mature size is small enough that the carcasses are generally light when they finish, or are overfat if brought quickly to the weights that markets are seeking. No breed or type of sheep is perfect. You need to look at the whole picture, and not just sieze on the fact that you don't have to shear them when you're looking at sheep breeds. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-21-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Hi, I do have to agree with Bill on the cost of hair sheep, to a point. The "registered" purebreds- especially Kathadin and Dorpers go for what I would consider obscene prices. And unless you had the market and the motivation to work with registered, quality purebreds- the hair sheep are not really a commercial option. However, as school sheep and supplying your personal freezer as well as some side income selling lambs, I think hair breed crosses can be be a good option- they are generally less (in my area) than wool breeds, and while you won't get as much carcass weight (and not as much fat either), you will have low maintainance, low expense sheep to train on. And generally, you will be saving in feed as well as shearing. I don't know the statistics or science on whether they are hardier or not, but I haven't seen any significant problems and can only recall one ewe that succumbed to an actual illness at a younger age and she was a registered purebred. The crosses seem to be a very hardy lot. Alot depends on your area, I live in a dry area and foot rot and parasites aren't a problem unless you keep your sheep in a tiny, soggy pen. I think hair sheep can be a good option for someone starting out, if anything the crosses are cheap enough that you won't shed as many tears over sheep problems/deaths as you would more expensive "real" sheep. The only tears I have shed is over sheep killed by dogs, but other than that the hair sheep I've had have been very easy to keep happy and healthy, and lambing problems are almost zilch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Thanks Bill, we got the tractor, rake, but have been hiring round baling out. I'm to the point that I will need most of the hay I produce, so it's get a baler, and do the work, or pay. I'd like to keep more sheep though, especially if it can work out where I'm still making a profit while paying for hay. I have to say I like my hair sheep, haven't had to shear any yet. I do keep wool sheep around too for variety for the dogs. Only a few of my ewes have ever challenged my dogs, and that was with new lambs. There are some nice ones out there, with good meat on them too, you just have to look, as there are some poor ones too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 For low maintenence and dog training I love my hair sheep (or loved them, they are slowly being phased out here). I bought mine from my trainer and they were heavily selected for dog friendliness and low care. However, my market is for a bigger, younger lamb so I went over to wool (Border leister cross) this year. I found Storey's Guide to Raising Sheep to be very helpful when I got started. Just don't let all the descriptions of various ailments scare you. It used to be called Raising Sheep the Modern Way. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Posted December 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Cost of sheep....hmmm looks like this is a question I forgot to ask. I remember a trainer once told me if my dogs killed a sheep, I would have to buy it for $50. I kinda assumed all sheep were around that price, is that about average for a mutt sheep? So what can those fancy pedigreed sheep go for? I really am enjoying this discussion and appreciate you guys answering those questions. Thanks, Trisha Eifert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Trisha, You can get probably older cull ewes for $50, but don't expect a healthy productive ewe for less than $80, and probably more like $100. Purebred ewes can go for several hundred dollars. As an example, last year I bought 145 crossbred ewe lambs exposed to rams for a final cost of $122 delivered, and I felt I got a very good deal because I know the flock they come from and its health status, and have seen the results. When we had the flock appraised, the appraiser agreed that I had made a good purchase, as he set the value of these ewes -- now yearlings -- at $200 each. I also took 49 sheep off someone's hands (just paid for a vet check and trucking) and felt like I probably got the short end of the stick. On the other hand, older cull ewes (provided that they're not being culled for disease) could be all you need if you're just out to train dogs. You might only get a year or two out of them, but if you're training dogs all the time you'll want to be changing them that often anyway. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ts Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Buying sheep is very much a "buyer beware" deal. I have watched purebred sheep sell at auction for over $100,000. per head. However, registration papers are not what makes the sheep valuable. Some sheep may be worth $1000's with papers---some sheep with papers are not worth market price. Too many newcomers look at that registration as some sort of guarantee. It is kind of like dogs, just cause Daddy and Mommy were champions (sheep) or trial winners (dogs), the offspring are only valuable when said offspring prove themselves. It has been my experience that good sound young haired ewes sell for about $75-$100. Bill, come to Michigan. Shearers get $5.00 per head and it is very hard to get them on a timely basis. You are right on the money about purchasing hay equipment. You also don't stand the chance of having your hay crop ruined by rain before you can get it baled. We have a neighbor that causes it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights everytime that he cuts hay. No other neighbor within a 20 mile radius would cut hay when he had his hay down. Farmers make up their own superstitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Trisha, You've got plenty good advise for sheep,acreage and hay. I'll give you my two cents worth. Buy wether lambs from your local auction (castrated males). Cheapest by far as long as you can avoid certain holidays. Most folks who herd will keep wethers strickly for dog work and those goes for about $35 a head from private sources and most are dog broke. Finding hair wethers may not as easy but it will be worth trying to locate about 8-10 head initially,you could add more later or get rid of them when the hay feeding season comes around if you don't want to feed them. Making hay,as Bill states,unless you have the pastures, time, temperament and the big bucks for the equipments,it may be worth the time. If you ask me,unless one has the hay market in their back pockets and the time,making hay is the worst time in the world. We need not only the mother nature's full co-operation,also equipments are known to break down just as you're in the midst of cutting with a forecast of thunders rolling in that evening. Getting anyone to fix the equipment during hay season is harder than landing in the moon. We used to make our own hay but both my husband and I decided it was not worth running the risk of killing each other,so now we have someone doing it for us. We pay him whatever he asks and try to give him more hoping he'll be bribed to continue in coming years. I'm in south central PA where we have abundant amounts of rain during spring and early summer. If you have to cut your lawn twice a week during those times,stucking rate for sheep is about 8 head to an acre without damaging your pasture by close grazing. Find the nearest extension office and get all the information from your soil to rain fall to who owns sheep and where. Whatever you'll decide to do,glad to have you amongst us as a herder. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Hi Terry, No offense, but I have spent the last couple of years of my life arranging things so that I wouldn't have to go to Michigan. There are some parts I'd like to visit again, but I need to figure out a way to avoid Detroit. Shearers are hard to find everywhere you go, and perhaps my glib dismissal of shearing as a factor to consider in the selection of a breed of sheep is based on having a larger flock and the ability to do at least some of the shearing on my own if it comes to it. Certainly small flocks are the hardest to get shorn. When I think about the flocks that I've helped people with, the biggest train wrecks have been hair sheep flocks owned by doggy people who had been sold on hair sheep because they were supposedly low-maintenance. They weren't supposed to need worming, vaccination, docking, shearing, etc. I've seen hair sheep with bottle jaw, so thin you could slip them through the eye of a needle without dusting either side, and when you tell people they need worming, they act surprised. "But these are HAIR sheep. They don't GET worms!" I suppose that's not the fault of the sheep, but of the people selling them who offer up a line of bull and the people buying them who buy it. The hair sheep I own (Dorper crosses) are wonderful dog training sheep. I have to admit it. They aren't flighty like Katahdins or Barbados can be, but they will move off a dog readily. I will probably keep 20 or so around just to train some pups on this winter. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank/Maggie Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Bill F, you mentioned you have 30 acres unfenced, that you use. Do you use tempory electric fence to keep the sheep in? Here is my situation. I am renting about 1.5 acres which I fenced last summer. I managed to find someone who let me pasture 5-8 Dorsets last summer which worked well for training a young dog. We were able to make it to Novice by the end of the summer. However she has outgrown 1.5 acres for outruns. My landlord has other pasture that he says I can use but they are unfenced and about 1/4 mile from my current pasture. I would have to drive the sheep through some woods to get to these pastures. My question is, do I put up temporary fence around the big pastures to do training? What kind? Do I chance driving with my Novice dog to the new pastures? Any help you can provide will be appreciated. Frank ps:We are also in Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Unless you really want to become a farmer - I'd go along with Inci - get the wethers, and plan on selling them every winter and not have the hassle of keeping sheep only to be "dog toys"... If you do that, you won't have to worry about shearing, unless you are silly enough to buy them in full wool...and worm them once when they first set foot on your land and they'll be fine all sumemr... The only drawback is simply that you are, more than likely, bringing "Stuff" onto your land - worms, bacteria, etc...and you won't be able to keep "good" sheep without cleaning your land...by letting the used sections lie abandoned for awhile. As well as the fact that you should practice at least some minimal biocleaning processes before going anyplace where someone keeps "real" sheep... There are TONS of folks to work with in Michigan, as Terry says, not the least of which is herself, so you should be able to find folks to work with and perhaps not need any sheep at all... Shearing costs, by the way, vary immensely depending on the number of head you have, how you treat your shearer (by this I mean not only lunch, but equipment, catchers, bagging, etc.), the type of sheep (meat breeds have clean faces and legs so require less time) and many other factors...just as the market for particular breeds will vary hugely... After doing some market checking here on Dorper crosses, our packer don't want them as feeders - because they aren't "proven" yet...they pretty much want a "dorset" head on their feeder lambs... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Frank - How are things? I don't know what Bill F.'s answers gonna be, but here's my take ... Many times I have folks come out to my place and ask to "do big outruns"... Most of these folks want me to use my dogs to sort out the sheep, take them to a spot, and hold them, while they pretend they walk to the post at a trial. Wrong training attitude, in my mind. These dogs were meant to "work sheep" - not "run trials"...if you and your dog can't sort out a few sheep, drive them to a settled spot in the field (perhaps even using a flake of hay or a small bucket of grain)...then you aren't ready for "big outruns".... This isn't meant as a putdown at all, but a suggestion that EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY you have to move sheep, sort sheep, drive sheep, count sheep, sheep tend, is a training opportunity for you and your dog. A training opportunity that will make you and your dog better at "shepherding".... If a person and their dog have difficulty driving, while walking together, a long distance, then why push the dog to do long outruns? "Real work" is a prime training motivator, when we fall into the trap of "setting up trial situations" and only training our dogs for that - then we also fall into the trap of creating false dogs whose only response is to trial situations...much as the evil empire does in IT'S herding programs... Do the work. Drive the sheep. Your dog is your fence, and a better one than you can build... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Frank, First off I'm with Bill..When I want to practice long outruns I have to hike "outback" though the woods to a large open area. Part of the learning experience is working in real life situtions. Which is why I was so thrilled with Inci's and Bill F.'s offers for me to help. Too bad Bill F. scared my off with his wussy winter comments! I don't do weather under 70 degrees!!! Trisha, Alot depends on what your area has to offer in the way of sheep..Down here there isn't much..No auctions nothing..I started by taking what I could find..Prices run about $125 for hair sheep..$100. for wool sheep. I sheared them myself the first year, then was lucky to get a shearer..like Bill I wined and dined him... I picked up 2 barbs..the one can not take the heat just about dies. There is a great ethic market here so culling my rejects are not a problem..These guys will even eat 100 yr old ewes..I've worked up to some hair sheep, some wool sheep..I have two rules they must fit into my herding plans, and they must be trouble free..if not they go. As far as worming, shearing etc. that is part of the herding learning experince it will make a much better handler out of you, it has me. I now have a ram and in a few months I will have my first lamb crop arriving..should be another big step in learning for me and my dog.. Oh one more thing..that nobody mentioned..STOP now while you can.this whole thing is very addicting and once you start there is no stopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabreur Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Someone PLEASE archive this where I can find it again in a year or so.... Merry Christmas, MR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank/Maggie Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Bill G., I think you answered my question. Go for it when I feel we are ready to drive to the big field. We were working on driving the Dorsets before the farmer sold the sheep. We are still working on driving with our trainer. It is just that the only opportunity to do a long outrun (greater than 75 yards) is when we get down to the trainer's field. The other question is it safe to train in an unfenced pasture with a dog at the Novice or Pro-Novice level? If I had an Open dog, it is a no brainer, but you can understand my anxiety. With dog broke sheep, one of us can hold the sheep for the outrun, but if we have a crash and the sheep heads for the woods, it will be interesting to say the least. Trisha, I do not know where you are, but if you are near Midland/Bay City, send me an email. Perhaps we share sheep in the spring. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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