Guest PrairieFire Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Ah Frank, I've seen you and Maggie and I wouldn't worry about it... The worst case is that you might chase sheep for awhile, and that can be a learning experience as well... I found myself sheep-tending 200 sheep at our first novice expereince at our first time at the club trial - in a spot where there was no fence to keep the sheep in - simply because folks "forgot" me and Craig were just running Novice and he was only 18 months old..or they thought it would be funny to watch us lose a couple hundred head...or they thought we oughta push ourselves out of our comfort zone... Either way, we did fine, no lost sheep, no panics, and the trial went on for the "real" handlers... Remember, a good novice dog can do nearly all the chores most of us have on the farm - they just might not be as pretty at it, or might require more "help"... Just think, expect your dog to think, and remember what was enblazoned on the cover of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" - DON'T PANIC! ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Frank, I generally train in unfenced fields. I've had to walk around the woods a few times, but nothing too bad. You have to trust your dog sometime. Trailing sheep through the woods is a good time to start. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Posted December 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 Bill Gary wrote "There are TONS of folks to work with in Michigan, as Terry says, not the least of which is herself, so you should be able to find folks to work with and perhaps not need any sheep at all..." Well that would be the best situation of them all. If anybody lives in Michigan near Grand Haven, or knows of somebody that does and would be interested in renting out some land and sheep please email me.... trishae@chartermi.net The nearest big city would be Grand Rapids. Unfortunately Bay City/Midland is too far away so I guess I won't be able to share any sheep with Frank. And for Amy who suggested I might want to get out while I still can... it just might already be to late. My gift certificate to Barnes and Noble that I received for Christmas will we used on a "How to Care for Sheep" book. My husband thought it was bad when I got into agility and had the backyard converted to an agility course in just about a year. An "eyesore" he says! That is nothing compared to this new herding adventure that will require smelly farm animals! Nobody has mentioned herding with Shetland Sheep, what do you think about that breed. Trisha Eifert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 25, 2002 Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 Trisha - contact Jeanne Weaver, she is a USBCHA Director for Michigan and her phone number is listed on that webpage - which is linked to the first page of this website...email me privately if that doesn't work out and I'll shoot you some names... First question on shetlands...why? Fleece is the ONLY reason to keep shetlands, no meat on the buggers - stockyards won't buy them - niche market for lambs doesn't exist...and unless you are willing to keep them jacketed, housed correctly (and expensively - nearly all year long), and never, ever, ever let the fleeces get burrs or hay seeds or grass or dirt in it - you won't catch much of a handspinner market, and even to do that you will need to shear and crop specially, handle the fleece specially, and then direct market it...cultivating either wool festivals or internet marketing... If you want to, and can, do all those things - shetlands can be herded by a good dog, but aren't good to start dogs on, usually, being too flighty, easily panicked, and rather prone to running their little heads into wooden walls... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 25, 2002 Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 The (only) good thing about shetlands is that when one crashes into the wall and breaks its neck, it's a single serving for a family of four plus dogs. No need to clutter the freezer. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank/Maggie Posted December 25, 2002 Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 Trish, Jeanne Weaver is in Perry, MI. Another contact is Dal Kratzer. He is in Olivet, MI. Both are a couple of hours from you. You might also email Terry directly. She is very active in the Michigan BC Association herding club and may know of someone closer to you. If you can make it, come to the annual meeting at Jeanne Weaver's place on Feb 1. It starts at 3:00 PM and everyone is supposed to bring a dish to pass. However, we are planning to work dogs before the meeting. Come early and bring your pup. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Posted December 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 Why shetlands? I guess they came to mind because they are small and cute. Both wrong answers I'm sure, but I was thinking that if I was to get trampled it wouldn't hurt as much. I'm certainly not going to keep jackets on any sheep though! What a funny thought.... leather jackets. I've been looking on the internet and the North Country Cheviot that was mentioned seems to be a popular breed that everybody agrees is resistant to parasites, long lived, etc. They aren't too shabby looking either, I'd be proud to have them in my back yard Trisha Eifert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 Hi Trish, North Countries are indeed wonderful animals. At lambing time they will make you wonder what all the fuss is about. THe lambs hit the ground looking for milk, not a place to die. The lambs are a bit slow growing, but are well muscled and quite thrifty. Make sure you get north country Cheviots, not Border or South Country Cheviots (which are often just called Cheviots in the US). The south countries are much smaller and flightier than the NCCs. They are, however, no more or less resistant to parasites than any other breed of sheep. (And another thing, it's pronounced CHEEV-yit.) ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 Geez Louise Hair sheep are SHEEP. Wake up, I see no difference in the way they behave on a daily basis than the heinz 57's, shetlands, Texels, or Suffolk crosses that I work. Some are heavy some are light and unless you mix them with a wool breed they definitely do not need either sheering or docking. But they flock the same, fight the same yada yada. After having Katahdan Dorper crosses in our flock for 3 years, the biggest thing I can say about them is that they are a very unremarkable but hardy sheep. They never get eye infections when the other woollies do and they never have singles (in our limited experience) and sometimes have triples. Otherwise, the same. Certainly there is no "cruel joke" of which I am aware. ------------------ John McKay Woolly Acres Alberta, Canada 403-395-3998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 I'll jump in again on this topic after reading the questions at the beginning on the thread. There are few things about sheep where one must learn from sheep,not from books. Books are great to read or have it around as a reference,not every detail is covered. You're asking about hair sheep,while most don't require shearing,some will not shed completely. They are far easier to shear than the wool breeds since they don't seem to have as much lanolin and excess unshed wool is more open. As far as disease resistance or parasite resistance,as long as they graze,just about every sheep are susceptible to everything is carried on earth and grass. Some flocks will grow resistance by selective breeding,however,lambs and yearlings are notorious about grabbing any larvaes off the earth/grass,so they must be dewormed fairly regularly if you cannot know or see the signs or get a fecal test for larvae and/or worm burden counts by a local vets. Most sheep will become more and more resistant as they age. Next,you dont want large acreage yet you like to work dogs. Best to avoid XXX brands since sheep are known to become familiar with their terrains rather fast and almost always will look ways to beat the dog,hence removing chances for dog to work properly,especially if they are young or inexperienced dogs. Brand named sheep are most likely registered,that means they cost more than most,reselling them as registered animals are almost nil if you haven't been dealing sheep for a long time. A lot of money for no return. Start calling around to find culls or wethers where you can flip them within few months when you'll stop progressing in your dog work,also you'll get to learn about them to see if you wish to pursue having sheep around,possibly breed them to have few lambs for your freezer. If you'll like having them around,start with non-brand animals who had lambed unassisted previously and are bred when you'll buy them. Let them teach you how lambs are born and taking cared by their mamas all alone. If you'll like what you'll see,you can proceed to acquire such and such breed of your desire. During your travels,you still have to have someone coming over and checking up on them to make sure they are thriving. While sheep could survive perfectly on their own,there are those pesky dog owners who thinks their dogs must run free and it takes only one time for couple of dogs to get a taste for chasing after them. If you're not there to care for your sheep,their next encounter with dogs will leave them very injured or dead. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 Feeling testy today, John? Sheep are NOT just sheep - or there would be no reason to argue which are the best, would there? The best are the ones we each raise. I'm against buying sheep as "dog toys" - no matter the breed. If you have a desire to be a shepherd, then sheep are good - and there is a reason to have a well-trained dog...but sheep are animals and deserve the respect and treatment we would show our dogs - being a shepherd is important work, and the duties can't be shirked - or you wind up with sick and dead sheep. That happens often enough even with good shepherding. If you just want to "play herding" - there are ways to do that - as has been mentioned, find someone to take lessons from, go ahead and buy a handful of wethers, care for them properly for the summer and sell 'em before any overwintering problems come up...etc. However, whatever you do - remember that the dogs exist for the sheep - the sheep don't exist for the dogs - an important distinction that can mean the difference between being a shepherd and mistreating animals in your care...and a distinction you may want to understand before investing in a bunch of woolie (or hairy) characters hanging around your place.... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 Hi, as long as we are asking questions on sheep, how long do they live?? we have two that came to us in a round about way from an neglect case. the vet guessed the mother to be eight or nine, is that old?? Tina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Eight is getting up there - but I have some old girls that age that still threw (and cared for) twins last spring... Some of the grannies that I've let live out their life here (because they were good sheep who loved thier babies) have died in the sun on summer pasture at 13 years old...and others that may have been older, but I didn't have records that covered them... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 In the commercial world, an eight year old ewe is spent. While she might still rear lambs, there's also a higher-than-normal chance that she'll develop ketosis or other lambing problems. Like Bill, I have had some wonderful old ewes that I have allowed to retire. The oldest yet died at age 13, a week after weaning her last set of twins. As they get up in age (say 9 or older) you want to make sure that they still have adequate teeth to graze. Sometimes they're actually better off without any incisors at all than with a broken mouth. But there's nothing that can be done for a ewe that's lost her molars aside from saying thank you and goodbye. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Good points, Bill... As I was thinking about this post, I realized that the way I raise all my animals is probably pretty wierd by modern agricultural standards, but it suits me... In my flock, there are always a few "grannies" as I call 'em, that "babysit" the lambs close to the barn while the younger mothers go off grazing on the hill or wherever...these grannies are the ones that still eat, but maybe have arthritis, or just don't care to wander too far from the water and minerals and suchlike, just to nibble on some grass - I guess you'd call them old enough and expereinced enough to know that the grass isn't ALWAYS greener somewhere else - and I think that is more "normal" to animal husbandry than seperating and raising lambs by themselves or whatever...and during weaning, the lambs aren't so lonely... It may not be the most profitable, it may cost me grass and some time to check on them occasionally, but it somehow seems more fitting to let them lie in the sun after a worthwhile life than ship 'em off to the packers to be dog food...and besides, if I do have bottle lambs, these grannies are incredibly good at keeping the babies warm and with company and teaching them "sheep things"... May seem silly to some, but I sure enjoy watching that flock - especially with the lambs out tearing around the place and mama's racing in to tell 'em not to play with those ruffians over there and old granny taking it all in and "just bein' proud to be there"... But part of bein' a shepherd is knowing when granny needs your help in passing away rather than starving away... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-28-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Bill G., You are such a softie. (insert one of those big smiling Forrest Gump face here). Long,long ago,I bought several Border Leicester ewes. Most were imported from Canada,yep those who are bigger than ponies with huge Roman noses. When I got them,the registry papers showed few around 5,few at 7 and one at 10. That 10 year old was a notorious triplet producer ever since she was a yearling. She was a slut sheep,if she got a glimpse of a ram,she would dig under the fences to get to him and always wanted to be the first to be bred. If she took,she found ways to jump fence and follow me around begging for grain,if she didn't take on her first cycle,she followed the ram everywhere. For almost 5 more years,I got triplets out of her but since I've kept rams around and didn't want her to get bred,I gave her to a friend who came over to buy the Leicesters. She had exactly the same experience with her for the next 5 years where she used to chop her food and spoil her endlessly. So,at the age of 20,she went on to become a yard pet where there were no rams anywhere within 50 miles. I'll bet she would have taken herself for a trek if she got a whiff of one. Last time when I asked my friend Nancy Starkey about what happened to Ma last year (had to give her a name),she was still alive. All her daughters produced triplets as yearlings and went on to drop the same year after year. Then you get some,they crawl away to die at a tender age of 1 or 2. Go figure! ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Well i guess i will have her and her yearling daughter aroung for a while, the age thing was a guess from my vet who went by the condition of her teeth and such. she is a pasture, stupid but very sweet!! Tina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Posted December 31, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 I found a local veterinarian that owns a sheep farm and is willing to let me bring my dogs over. I have offered to pay him for the "rental" of his land and sheep. However I have no idea what what be an appropriate amount. Does anybody out there have experience with this? Trisha Eifert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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