Huntley's Mom Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Who saw the report on ABC last night about the Grey Wolves' reintroduction into Central Idaho and Yellowstone? Their amazing success has stymied the rancher and the Feds both, according to the report last night. I watched the whole thing, and still don't know how I feel. I thought both sides of the discussion had merit. What did that one fellow mean when he said that "Hamburger prices would not increase a single penny a pound if grazing on Federal land was stopped completely in Idaho"? Can that be true? Are ranchers really losing significant numbers of calves and lambs and guard dogs? Aren't the ranchers subsidized significantly by the Feds in land leases, water, feed, health care, breeding practices, compensation for beef/lamb/wool prices? One wolf pack was feeding exclusively from one ranchers stock, The Bakers, I believe, and that pack was destroyed because they determined that the had become habituated to the stock. Could they not be relocated? I am fascinated with the idea that the west is "Managed", and not at all a natural place. From what I could understand, if the Feds had not "Managed" it in the beginning, it would basically be uninhabited still today. That is my idea of a good thing. I am of the opinion that their are too many humans and not enough wolves, but I am not a cattle or sheep rancher, nor do I live in the west nor near wolves. I have lots more questions, but I hope this will stimulate a discussion, and I will learn. Don't get me wrong, I love a good steak, a juicy leg of lamb, and while I don't live in a climate where we require much wool, I do have leather shoes. If lives must change, I tend to say, OK, that's what life is, change. No one subsidizes the printing industry for me. I compete pretty much in the free market. I change with the times. I do all typesetting/prepress on computer, where before it was all photographic. I have some expensive darkroom equipment you can have for the hauling. I scan digitally, were before we shot lots of halftones. We do still have a handfeed press, but mostly for nostalgic reasons. It looks way cool, and the kids love to see it run. Do you see what I am asking? Why are ranchers special? Why are wolves expendable? Where is the answer? Sincerely, Patti Jo ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Hey Patty, how's Hunt? Actually, there would be plenty of space for both ranchers AND wolves if all you city people would just go away... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted September 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Hunt's Grrrrrrrrrate! He gets better and better all the time. The other day I picked up the neighbor kids from school, and Hunt went along for the ride. When they loaded in, I said to Hunt, "Go lie down in the back now, we need the room, and you won't be there very long." The kids all laughed at me, but had looks of amazement when he did as I said. Sabina said, "How did he know what to do?" How indeed! I still think the only problem we have on the planet is overpoulation. Too many folks, not enough resources, or in other words, Too many humans, not enough wolves. How do you solve that problem? Especially when we are based on an everexpanding idea of everexpanding! Less is definitely more in my book. I can see both sides of the Rancher/Wolf thing, I guess being a Libra makes me try to keep things in balance all the time. What a crock! The Turner Fund guy seemed a bit fanatical, Babbitt seemed worldly, and the ranchers were just downright in shock about what was happening to them. I think the point about the Ranchers feeling entitled to Federal Lands is right on, but how do they NOT feel that way? And oh yes William, I would be happy to leave the city if for no other reason than Hunt's wellbeing. He deserves his own flock. Maybe one day! ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Oh, yeah, I guess old "Scabbit Babbit" is worldly alright...after all when he was Gov. of Arizona he called in the National Guard to beat on the striking miners... Quite the bleedin' heart, ay? "Millions for wildlife defense, nothing for the working man", or something like that... Sorry, just babbling...long day getting ready for the trial... You all got any rain down there? Oh, and the "Turner Fund" - would that be the Ted Turner/Jane Fonda fund that spends millions for wildlife preservation, and even more millions to dam trout streams for a private "swimming hole" on their ranch? In the process cutting off the water to ranchers downstream and destroying the trout spawning areas? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted September 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 I belive the full name of the Fund was the Turner WildLife Fund, or something like that. It must be Ted/Jane. How ARE their Bison doing? Ranchers shootin' 'em yet? Tonight's In Search of America episode is about Boulder,CO HS kids putting on the play HAIR! "When the Moon is in the Seventh House...." Flashback! What is Peter Jennings doing to us? Not much rain here, but better than the past 4 years. We are still in a deficit. We need a good ole hurricane. Whoops! Did I say that? Well, a little one would not hurt. Hunt is disgusted with us 'cause we are babysitting a 10 week old Maltese for a few days. Bossy little thing. How COULD we? Of course she loves Hunt, and pesters the daylights out of him. I rescue him every so often so he can get some rest! Peace & Love, Tiger Lily PS Wish we could give you a hand with the trial. We will one day. ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) [This message has been edited by Huntley's Mom (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Hello, I didn't see the program in question, although I have seen a few on wolves/rancher issues. But I did want to put my two cents in for the ranchers, especially the small business/family operations. I live in Nevada, which is, I think, around 90% Federal Land. Some of it is mined, some grows bombs and air forces, and plenty of it is rangeland managed by the BLM. I think the system works well for Nevada. Rangeland is accessible in most areas by the public, you can take a hike in many parts of BLM rangeland and no one will question your right to be there as long as you don't shoot whats not supposed to be shot, and be sure to shut the gates. Rangeland supports wildlife, sometimes better than unmanaged lands. Good grass for cows means good grass for deer, elk, antelope, etc. Predators are where the situation gets rough, but city folk are as guilty of "managing" pesky predators, specifically bears and coyotes in certain areas, as much if not more than ranchers. In my state, if you don't live in Reno, Las Vegas, or one of their affluent suburbs- you live in a depressed county, one that relies on mining and agriculture to support any people. C.J Hadley wrote in the Atlantic Monthly a few years ago about this, and pointed out that even though ranchers get gov. subsidies, their families get subtantially less tax dollars spent in their benefit than city folk do. So, maybe I don't get subsidized for my desk job, but more money is spent to make my life easier in town than it would be if I held the same job, for far less pay I'm sure, in a rural area. Ranching does provide the nation with a consistent, stable food source at an affordable price. Too affordable, we seem to feel ok to waste it all the time. Lastly, on ranchers feeling "entitled" to use public lands. Yes, I think they do. Many of their families have been there from the beginning, and thats part of it. But I think the point missed all the time is that the rancher does pay more than grazing fees. When a rancher purchases property, they pay a higher price for the value of a BLM allotment. In a way, they have "bought" the right to be on there, and as long as they follow the rules, they are entitled to what they have paid for, or their families have paid for. ------------------ Jaime R. Green http://www.hometown.aol.com/smokjbc/SmokinJbc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 One thing I get a kick out of as well is when folks who work or live in the city complain about "subsidies" farmers/ranchers get... The school your children attend is funded by govmint subsidies - as is the school bus they ride on - and the roads you drive to work... Your phone company is likely using phone lines that are underground - you don't think the phone company paid for that street work, do you? Oh, and Fire and Police - here we pay for a fire call or a police call if we need it - seems like our dollars go to support those "free" things in your area... That Mall you shop at? Who do you think paid for the water, sewer services, electrical lines, roads, traffic controls, plice and fire protection, etc.? You don't think Macy's did, do you? And airports - ever heard of the Airport Commission? A government funded group whose job is to repair, improve, and maintain the runways, terminals etc, used by "airlines"... And don't forget that corporations in this country pay less taxes, in proportion, than ANY individual taxpayer - sounds like a subsidy to me... My daddy, Patti, was in the Printing Industry for years - and if you don't think there are subsidies floating about for paper mills and thier pollution, ink manufacturers, foresters, equipment makers, etc., you just haven't looked deep enough... As far as grazing - there is substantial evidence that PROPER grazing IMPROVES the grasses, native prairie, eliminates erosion around water sources, etc...enough evidence that even the "smart" environmentalists are taking a look at it. If govmint susidies were removed across the board - completely - which area do you think would suffer worse, Patti? The truth is never easy, sometimes simple... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted September 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Point well taken, Bill. But, I will argue with you about the subsidies in the printing industry. Or maybe I should say small business. 'Bout the only compensation we get is for complying with the handicap access to our business required by the Feds, and that has nothing to do with the printing industry in particular. Maybe in the past, when the paper industry was young, but most R&D was/is privately done and financed. Hell, I can't even get Microsoft, HP, Hurst, and Adobe to provide me with a workable driver for my 12 x 18 laser printer, even with my supplies guys(Hurst) in my corner. I'd be spending big bucks on polyester plates if my printer would work, and yet all I hear is: No, Microsoft needs to do it, no, HP needs to do it, no, Adobe needs to do it, no, Hurst needs to do it. Hell, SOMEBODY do it! Dang! Yet, good ole all-American competition should solve this right? Well, it's been almost a year, and all I get is "It's coming, I promise!" From where? From whom? When? When I bought the HP printer/Microsoft operating system/Adobe software/Hurst plates, not one mentioned or asked if the driver would fly. Just took my money with a smile. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well, look out. I know we are inexplicably intertwined with government almost everywhere. Ranchers have roads and phones and water and electricity and sewage mostly, too, just like us city folk. Their kids go to public schools, and get scholarships and loans, too. They ride on a "free" school bus, many eat a "free" breakfast and lunch at achool. I pay lots of property tax, school tax, sales tax, income tax, equipment tax, etc.,etc., just like most, too. So I conceed the point about subsidies, and that it is probably a weak one. Still, I ask again, how much does it cost the Rancher in livestock lost? Will meat/wool prices skyrocket if ranching goes away in Idaho? Will the land really deteriorate without cattle and sheep grazing? Do I care whether the long time Ranchers continue their way of life? Yes, I do. I know what it is to be uprooted rudely. But, once again, life is change. I'm not saying it's good change, but it comes even when we don't want it. Not too many hand feed presses anymore. I guess this "managed" change is what rubs the wrong way, but it is all "managed" to some degree. Just is it "managed" to your liking? Again I say, Too many people, too few wolves. Regards, Patti Jo ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) [This message has been edited by Huntley's Mom (edited 09-05-2002).] [This message has been edited by Huntley's Mom (edited 09-05-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Remeber ZPG? Zero Population Growth. A big idea in the beginning of the environmentalist movement - but one that hardly gets mentioned anymore as it doesn't seem to be "correct"... Small business gets NOTHING from the guvmint - whether that be farming or printing. The guvmint supports the biggies in any industry... What would be lost would be a lifestyle that helped to shape this country and it's ideas - what would be the actual loss? Dunno. When all the farmers and ranchers are gone - except for big business - then the impact will be huge - and I think you can guess at what that would be, Patti... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Bill, I have to agree. The ranching industry is what MADE the west in particular - everything from roads to towns to "culture." However. (and this is a huge "however")... Times do change. Used to be that every town had a blacksmith. How many of them are around anymore? Used to be that every postmaster knew everyone in his town. Now? Used to be that the grocer knew where his products came from. THAT would be a thesis work now! Not to say, of course, that all this change is for the better....some of it might be, but philosophically and economically - probably not. Big business agriculture has so many problems - this board isn't big enough to get into them all. We all know most of them (though undoubtedly there's lots we DON'T know too...). You're absolutely right - the impact will be huge - but most of the country's population won't know, and because of that, won't care. I'm able to get the beef for my dogs' raw diet from a local butcher shop, who gets his meat from a single small cattle ranch - where they don't use hormones, very restricted antibiotics, range-fed, etc. etc.. I pay through the nose to support both of these folks! But I see that neither is going to be able to continue this forever - because they don't get the subsidies that big business does. And geez, Bill, how many things can we agree on in one day? ZPG - you betcha! The source of nearly all the problems in the world! Probably, somehow, even the demise of the working border collie. I think the key in all of this is: yes, the lifestyles will pass; but hopefully the IDEAS will remain. That depends on a lot of "you" and "me" and the others that can pass them along. I think it can be done - but it won't be easy. Back to Patti's original statement, "I am fascinated with the idea that the west is 'Managed', and not at all a natural place. From what I could understand, if the Feds had not 'Managed' it in the beginning, it would basically be uninhabited still today. That is my idea of a good thing." Patti, there are certainly a LOT of folks out here that would agree with you about that last statement! And yes, indeed, even "wilderness management" is a big deal in most land management agencies. BECAUSE of so many humans, there just isn't much in "nature" that can take care of itself anymore. And the conflict begins there. Everything from mountain lions plucking poodles off back porches to deer grazing in suburban lawns to wolf and livestock conflicts - too many folks, taking over too much land. ZPG!! diane [This message has been edited by diane allen (edited 09-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 I went up to Yellowstone one winter a few years ago. Already the wolves had been introduced up there, apparently. People told me that one unexpected side-effect of the wolf introduction there is that the wolf packs were, in effect, eliminating the coyotes. Anybody else heard about this? Is it true or just a legend? Now they will have to re-introducue the coyotes, I guess. The road to hell... charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 It's true. Wolves and coyotes don't get along. The coyotes used to prey on a lot of the smaller animals. The wolves got rid of the coyotes. Wolves prefer large prey - deer and elk. They don't bother the little guys. So, the end result has been that a lot of species have done a lot better since the wolves were reintroduced. Of course, I'm on the side of the wolves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 I had a coyote eat one of my sheep a couple of years ago. I saw it leaving my pasture; as luck would have it, my neighbor saw what happened and shot it as it was heading down the road. (Good thing, too, or it would have come back regularly.) I got a nice close look at this coyote. It was really quite a magnificent looking animal, to me anyway. It was a shame to have to kill it. What's my point? I don't know. I like wolves just fine. But I like the coyotes, too. As I heard it told, the near elimination of the coyote in Yellowstone was pretty much unexpected. It scares me when the experts start adjusting things and they get unexpected outcomes. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Your point is well taken. But, if I am not mistaken, the wolves and the cougars were the top predators in the Rockies - not the coyote. So introducing the wolves back into the mountains actually returned the ecosystem back to what is was originally. It is a much healthier ecosystem. I know a lot of people just hate coyotes - but they have their place, too. Just like all of the other scavengers on earth. It would be a pretty terrible place without them. I just wish we could find a way so that the animal world could live and so could we. There is someplace in Montana or Wyoming where they were able to balance things with the Elk herds. They opened up a huge area so the big elk herds could move in a much more natural way. And it really benefitted the ranchers and the elk. Had to do with government land and ranch land. They just sort of moved things around so that it worked better. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Whenever I think about "ecology", I'm reminded of a cartoon that was passed around my Environmental Science Classes in 1971... It showed two cavemen running for thier lives from tigers, bears, snakes, etc...and one saying to the other - "Seems to me there's too damn MUCH ecology around here!"... I reckon we've been "managing" our environment ever since then...including the paleolithic folks who happily ran herds of bison and elk-ish things off of cliffs... Diane, ZPG was the one "true belief" I had before Border Collies - but you simply cannot get modern environmentalists to approach the subject seriously, seems like that would be encroaching on "native cultures" in many instances, and smacks of "birth control (nee abortion)" to others... When the small farmers are gone - I think it will make a HUGE difference and one most folks won't even realize... For example - the largest "organic" dairy in the United States has over 3000 cows and is certified organic by every sancitoning body available - but this outfit also runs a regular dairy and any cow that gets sick or is underproducing simply gets a shot of antibiotics or BGH and gets shipped to the "unorganic" side... This may be "organic" under some defintions - but it certainly ISN'T sustainable... And non-sustainable means that eventually it will catch up and bite us in the ass... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted September 6, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 About the same devastation as the loss of small businesses like ours. I don't want to think about it... Keep up the good work, Patti Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted September 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Environmentalists Hail the Rancher Here is an article talking about The Rancher versus The World. Regards, PJ ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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