bcnewe2 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I have a question for AK Doc or anyone else who?s run into this issue?. I have 2 LGD?s that I love very much, they are minimally trained, i.e. will come when called, will stay where or when I say stay, they let me heartguard them and I have no problem doing health things to them, like putting frontline on or trimming dew claws. They do a great job guarding my flock and making me smile. Here?s my dilemma. Lonesome is wonderful but a bit human shy. He came that way and I hear his Dad and Mum are the same way. He is now about 10 months old and way over due for neutering. I haven?t been able to get him leash trained, he totally freaks out after I put the leash on and try to make him go somewhere he?s afraid to go. He follows me everywhere when he?s not guarding but I can?t get him loaded into the car. I could probably get him in a crate and then load him but when we get to the vet, I?m afraid he?ll freak out when I try to get him out of the crate. He?s never offered to bite but a fear bite would not be out of the question. SO?.the vet and I agreed that drugging him to get him there would be a good idea. He suggested ace, I?m not sure about this drug. I voiced my concerns to him and he didn?t agree. We decided on a trail acing here at home to see how he?d respond. Can AK Doc or anyone else recommend a different drug or a different way to get him to the vet for his neutering? Or assure me that I?m worrying for nothing about the ace. I also fear when I get him there that he will be so freaked out the vet won?t be able to handle him so we agree that drugging him would be easiest for all concerned. Any suggestions? TIA Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Kristen, Jack was given ace a couple of weeks ago when he had to go to the e-vet (ripped toenail that was so painful he wouldn't let them touch it). After seeing the reaction he had to ace, I swear, I will never let any of my dogs have it again! It was awful. He came home and laid on the couch for about 4 hours, with his eyes wide open. He wasn't able to relax enough to sleep, but he couldn't get up, either. When he did get up, he couldn't walk straight, didn't focus his eyes on us, he whined, cried and howled (three things he never does). Everything was "off" with him, and it took a good two days for him to get back to normal. It was heartbreaking to see him that way. I read that some people give it regularly for separation anxiety and car sickness, but I can't how anyone could do that, unless their dog reacts differently, which could be the case. I'm sorry, I don't have any ideas for alternatives, though. I just wanted to share my experience. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Ace will not ease anxiety. Check with your vet for suggestions of a sedative since you don't want interactions with what will be used for neutering. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Ha, Mark put it better in one sentence than I did in my whole post! As he said, ace did not ease Jack's anxiety, only made it physically impossible for him to react to the stimulus making him anxious/afraid/painful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Thanks That's the jest of what I was trying to tell the vet. Mark, do you have any articles handy on ace not easing anxiety so I can be ready for a valid explination, other than the board I'm on agrees with me? I will try again or a different vet might be in order. Thanks again Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberkaster Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 My new vet is younger and keeps all the meds. I need for Ambers anxiety in stock. Five other vet practices in town and only one had meds. in stock call around. jeanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Many vets carry diazepam, which IS a specific anti-anxiety med, and has been around long enough that most of us are comfortable using it. We use this as part of our induction protocol, so it wold be compatible with OUR regimen (although it might not be compatible with every regimen.) Every dog differs on response to meds, and I've had some dogs do very well with this and others not so much. No one can predict how your dog will respond to a given med BEFORE you try it. Also, bear in mind that it IS possible for diazepam to INCREASE the risk of biting... in situations where the dog is considering a bite but is a little worried about the consequences, taking the anxiety out of the picture means they have no worry at ALL about biting, thank you, and will go right on ahead with that. If it's strictly fear biting, this should not occur, but you'd want to be sure it is STRICTLY fear biting. (This may be why your vet isn't thinking in terms of diezepam right off the bat; also, it's a controlled substance, and it's a bit uncomfortable to be giving that for a dog which has not ever been examined by that vet. OTOH, I personally would not want to give Ace to a dog whose heart I had not listened to recently, and would actually be more comfortable with diazepam in that situation since it has less potential to affect the cardiac picture.) Another consideration would be to give nothing at home but use something like Domitor on the dog when he gets to the vet (you cannot give this med at home). This is an injectable sedative which causes a very deep sedation (deep enough to do some surgical procedures with), and it can be given IM, so all you'd need to do is be able to reach a flank. (If I have dogs or cats in a crate who are very fearful, rather than dragging them out the door and freaking them out as well as risking getting bitten, I take the crate apart, take off the top, and - in a case like this - have the owner manage the head +/- a muzzle while I approach as non-threateningly as possible from the rear or side, listen to the heart, and then give the drug.) The disadvantages to this are that if you can't listen to his heart, you're blindly giving a medication which can significantly affect the cardiac picture. The good thing with Domitor is that it's reversible, which means that it there's a problem, you can give the antidote and reverse the anesthetic; however, if you're REALLY in trouble, you may not be able to reverse it fast enough (I personally have never seen this happen, but I can't say that it would be impossible). I would not do a neuter with Domitor alone as a sedation; it's not enough drug for that much procedure, and dogs CAN still move while they're sedated with it alone. However, I WOULD use it to help me sedate the dog sufficiently that I can get other medications on board. Domitor makes the veins hard to hit because it lowers the peripheral blood pressure, but if you can't find a vein you can mask induce. Generally what we do is use a decreased amount of our usual induction meds and then once the dog is intubated, if we have any concerns about it, we reverse the Domitor. I'm not sure from your post if the dog has ever been examined by this vet, but if not perhaps you can persuade them to try another protocol because there's been no cardiac exam before the Ace. (Again, they may have concerns about doing the Dieazepam because it's a scheduled drug.) Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Thanks for all of your thoughts and advice. I plan on talking to the vet again. He hasn't been examined because I haven't gotten him to relax with doing what scarres him. We'll contiune working on it. I like the idea of using Domitor. I'm pretty sure I can get him loaded into the crate down at the lean too, then load the crate into the truck. My fear comes from the thought of getting him out of the crate, into the office or for that matter getting him out of the crate at all. When we brought him home he stayed in the crate till we all went away and sometime during the night he came out on his own. Yesterday he had a tick embedded in his cheek. I tried to remove it. He was a bit upset/worried that I was fiddling with his face. Eventually he laid down, his own choice, then laid his head down on his side and let me remove the tick without anymore trouble at all. He is one of the coolest dogs I've had the pleasure of working with. I'm still not done with the idea of working this out w/o any med. I will only resort to meds if I can't get anywhere. Thanks again for the advice. I'll let you know how it works out. Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhborder Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Ace isn't used for anxiety? I did not know that. My friends' Viszla became very thunderphobic, and was put on Ace, it was a low dose I beleive, because he took it often due to his severe phodias and sensitivities. He typically acted like a normal dog while on it, and You could definately tell when he hadn't had a dose. Perhaps different dogs react to it differently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Ace will slow the body but NOT the mind.Can you imagine being terrified of something and your body cannot respond...talk about making matters worse. I use alternate therapies for my storm phobic bitch, 3mg of melatonin at first sign of a storm...works well and extremely safe. Rescue Remedy, available at health food stores,Fosters and Smith...is also helpful with stressful situations ie vet visits,storms,injured/going into shock. For those interested a good book that has some good ideas for fearful dogs and info on alternative therapies ie Rescue Remedy,DAP,Anxiety wrap, TTouch Check out 'Help For Your Fearful Dog' by Nicole wilde at www.dogwise.com Another resource www.fearfuldogs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Storm Phobias Sep 1, 2004 By: Karen L. Overall, VMD, Ph.D., Dipl. ACVB DVM Newsmagazine Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhborder Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Thanks Mark, that was a very good article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Actually, that whole SITE is great. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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