HD and cartrifen

[kaos]

Hello

 

My girl, Kaos (8 years old in 4 days), underwent a strange personality change about 4ish years ago. She began attacking and posturing towards my houndX Sam.

 

Well, fast forward 4 years and we have recently saved up and had her xrayed (although for the last 4 years the vets have been saying she can't be in pain she is too happy, doesn't show it when she walks and that her hips felt fine when manipulated). You see she bunny hops on her return run/jog/canter when she plays. she actually kind of tripods back by tucking one leg in running on only one back leg. So we all thought it was a knee injury or something....

 

The vet said on a scale 1-10 (1 being fine and 10 being immediate PTS) she was a 6.5-7 and had pretty bad arthritis as well. Her femoral head (I think that is right???) is flat on both sides and both hips are radiographically equally bad so she was surprised that she was favouring one over the other.

 

We are unable to afford the surgeries at this time and are going with sub-Q injections of cartrifen (I will recheck that spelling).

 

Has any one else gone the chemical route as well? how were your results?

 

we were advised not to go with pain meds (ie:metacam) because she would just feel so much better and end up doing serious harm to herself.

 

I guess I am just feeling horribly guilty because I am prety sure I am the one who did this to her (ran her solid from puppyhood onwards) and didn't make a better effort to find out what was wrong with her in the first place....

 

Don't you hate failing your best friends? I would have done so much differently if I had known...

 

Sorry for the long disjointed post, just kinda needed to tell people who would understand I guess.

 

Sara

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Maybe the injectable is Carprofen (Rimadyl), which is a NSAID like Metacam, which you wouldn't want to use WITH Rimadyl. Anyone recommend anti-inflamatory nutricueticals (sp) for you to use on her, like MSM, Glucosamine etc?

I can't see leaving her with pain so she'd not be happier moving around, unless you had a cage-rest situation for an injury, even then, inflamatory response is detrimental to her overall health, I'd think, and certainly demoralizing for both of you. If I had a dog who had a year to live with pain meds versus two without them, I'd opt for the less painful one year (all hypothetical). If I had a severely painful dog, I'd look at overall quality of life and make a decision based on how humane it is to leave her that painful. We can do what we can do, looking back now wil only help us realize we learn every step of the way and keep us from making mistakes twice (if possible). Don't beat yourself up over this...it's obvious you care.

My oldest dog (15, also has bad hips) is on Rimadyl daily, and I don't care if it eats up her liver in the end, when she gets sick from it, that's it. She "frolics" and runs, rolls in the grass and is happy, now. Drugs are for easing pain. I'd use them.

[Kerrigan]

I agree with Debbie regarding having her be happy and pain free now. Quality of life is important. I also agree with looking into the nutriceuticals.

 

Please don't beat yourself up about this. Hindsight is great, and there are things we all wish we would have done differently if we had known then what we know now. However, you can't change the past, what's done is done. The main thing is taking the knowledge you have now and doing the best thing you can for your girl.

[kaos]

Thank you for the speedy responses.

 

I have had her on a three in one MSN, glucosamine, chondroiten liquid supplement for the last few years, it has made a tremendous difference in her pain levels as well as her personality.

 

She only displays aggression and pain when she has been exercised or played with too aggressively. I got the impression from our vet that she considered kaos to be quite a tough dog. She always wants to play and run and seems very confused as to why she isn't allowed to anymore (we give her small short games of fetch just for her peace of mind, but her exercise is down to long walks and swimming).

 

I went to the vet FOR the pain meds becuase no one believed what I had long suspected, that her aggression may have been due to chronic pain...I insisted on the xrays (with vet AND husband) because I wanted to be able to prove or disprove those assumptions.

 

I have to say I was alittle surprised when she said no to the metacam too... She told me that the surgery would be the ultimate pain reliever and that she could jump and play after that, but that with the state her hips are in now, that any crazy activity (as I have no doubt she would do!) would lead to a completedestruction of what little movement she has and lead ultimately to the surgery (which my husband would not agree to, nor could we really afford at the moment)

 

The Cartafen (damn just forgot how to spell it again) is supposed to be for helping her arthritis I believe, it rebuilds cartilage or something... shoot I wish I could remember exactly how she explained it... I even asked her to repeat it to me because I didn't quite get it the first time. She said that it would have a very similar affect to the pain meds and we could expect a favourable response almost as soon as receiving the injection.

 

She doesn't show pain and now that we are not running her or allowing her to run herself into the ground she is doing wonderfully. Her quality of life is pretty good, she is always very happy and cuddly and just loves to be with us and she is much better around Sam (ever since the msm,gluc,chond supplementing).

 

So is do you think the med I have consistently misspelled is the same as the one you are talking about?

 

Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate them very much and take them to heart.

 

Sara

[Tassie]

Hi Sara

 

My guess is that the injections are Cartrophen (or that's how it's spelt here in OZ). It's pentosan polysulphate. Here's a link to some info about it. Cartrophen link

And another link link 2

It's very widely used here in Oz, and with good success in many cases - moderate in others. Seems to be one of those things that probably can't do any harm, and may do some or a lot of good. I had a couple of series of injections done on my previous old dog, and it did seem to help, even though she was over 12 at the time. I probably should have started them earlier.

 

It's usually a series of 4 injections, given 1 week apart. Then the series is repeated in 3 or 6 months, depending on how the dog's doing etc. Vets here usually recommend a series going into the winter. My vet said it seems to be more beneficial when started with younger dogs, but can still have benefits for older dogs.

[kaos]

Hi Barb

 

Thank you for those links, it really helped jog the old memory. That is exactly what my vet was discussing (administrator had misspelled it on our receipt). Kaos is to have 1 shot each week for four weeks and then once she is at a therapeutic level she will receive one shot per month. Which, after reading through those links, further leads me to believe her hips are pretty awful, poor baby.

 

I have opted to give her the shots myself, so next friday we head back to the clinic where she will observe me administering kaos's second dose and then, if I do well and seem competent she will load us up with some supplies.

 

I have my hopes set on this, as I am hoping for an even greater decrease in our inter dog aggression as well as her ability to enjoy life. To be honest, I think I already see a positive change in her realtions both to people and other dogs. She is less quick to posture and become snarly, is definitely initiating play even more with us and with sam and seems to have a more jolly/contented appearance. That said, I have nothing really to base it all on, and it could just be wishful thinking.... awww forget I am determined to be positive!

 

 

Thanks for all the help and the personal anecdotes. It is nice to have personal stories to draw from and compare to.

 

Sara

[Bluzinnias]

The injections also sound a lot like Adequan. My two year old has HD to a moderate degree on one side. He wasn't in pain, I work at a vet hospital and we had just gotten our xray machine serviced and my dog was under having dental surgery so we shot his hips. So I was totally taken by surprise. Parents were good and excellent OFA but you can never guarantee good hips.

 

I'm trying to proactively delay any onset of symptoms and prevent more damage. So far, he's on Cosequin and having acupuncture on a bi-monthly basis. Our holistic vet practices acupuncture on a lot of HD cases in conjunction with traditional pain meds. You might want to check it out. Around here, it's not that expensive.

 

Michelle

[Tassie]

Hi Sara

 

You're very welcome. I found, even with my old dog, that a combination of Catrophen injections and glucosamine et al supplements was able to keep her pretty comfortable, and put off the time when I had to put her on NSAIDs - although, like the others, there comes a time when you need to do that too. We used Rimadyl, since for her, Metacam didn't seem too effective (apparently it varies from dog to dog.) I think there are some new pain meds being developed too, so the options for managing these arthritic etc. dogs are increasing all the time.

 

Good luck to you and Kaos - and I'm sure your Sam will appreciate a happier ocmpanion.

 

And as the others said - don't feel bad. I think we all know a lot more now than we did years ago - and might do things differently. The important thing is you're onto it now, and can manage her from here on in.