Dal & Mad's Mom Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hypothetical sort of. My neighbors have a B&W female who has a Merle Mom they Bred her to a blue merle male and Got 1 B&W 1 Red and one Blue Merle. Now my queston is if you took the Red pup can you safely breed it to a Red Merle female? Also do the solids carry a merle gene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot pole.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted July 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 I've been reading the back stuff trying to put it togher but, now I know why I'm not a geneticist.SP? I guess my neighbor was taking a risk breeding her two. Glad they are fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Sheryl, a dog has to actually be merle to produce merle - regardless of what color its parents were (merle or solid). There is no "merle factoring" like there is tri factoring or red factoring. Does that answer the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Thanks Laurie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Merle is dominant, so you only need one parent to have the gene to get any merles. You might not get any, or any combination of the solid colors and merle/not merle, with a 25% chance that any one pup might be merle. I would not breed a solid from a merle breeding to a merle, deliberately. There is too much chance for a "phantom merle" occurance in the supposedly solid colored dog from the merle breeding. That is is when an apparently solid color dog actually carries merle, but it only affects a difficult-to-see part of the coat, such as under the tail, or near a tri or white pattern marking, or on an ear tip. Phantom merle is particularly hard to spot on red or lighter colors. In general, it's a really bad idea to breed just to get candy colors. Breeding strictly for livestock working ability is the best way to maintain the health of the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 These are well bred dogs they are related to Mirk. I was just asking to be sort of nosy and to learn more since the concept is a bit tough. When I read about phantom merle stuff it made it sort of worse. I guess merle is a funny thing in one litter I saw from a merle only one is merle out of 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 I think the phantom merles are really rare. I've been around alot of merles, but have only seen two phantoms. I had one recently - a rescue - who only "obviously" had a tiny bit of merling around her neck (which easily could have been mistaken for ticking by someone who didn't know the pedigree) - but in her puppy picture, she was obviously a "muddy" blue merle. Actually, I'd bet she was actually a dark sable merle, but I don't have genetic proof. Her dark guard hairs just came through and masked most of the mottling, but her undercoat was mostly a light grey. I agree with Rebecca though. Even if breeding for certain working traits, I wouldn't tempt fate when there are so many solid color families of Border Collies out there to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 What is the danger of breeding merles? Don't worry! I have NO intention of even attempting it! I am just curious for knowledge! The reason I ask is, wasn't there a woman from England, or somewhere, that ONLY bred merles? She seemed rather proud that she consistantly produced merles. So I was just wondering what the danger is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronHorse Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 What is the danger of breeding merles?Without getting into a long worded answer dealing with genetics (which you can search and find on the boards) the simple answer is that the danger with breeding merles is the high percentage chance of producing physically defective puppies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Linda - Since I can't edit my earlier post - I just meant that I agree it is not a wise choice to breed a solid color son or daughter of a merle to another merle unless you know for certain that the solid color one is not a "phantom merle". Merle to merle crosses usually produce an array of physical problems -including blindness, deformed eyes, deafness and internal malformations (not just in Border Collies - it is the same with Aussies, Shelties, dappled dachshunds, and other breeds that carry the merle gene.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Okay, thanks. I thought that might be the reason. That woman from England was on the boards a while back but left cuz I believe she didn't like what people said about her breeding for a certain look(which I agree with) and she swore that all her pups were healthy, just merles. So, I wonder how many she dumps in shelters or just PTS herself? The messed up ones I mean. Jeeze! It is so hard to just breed so most of the pups can work without throwing certain coloring and such into it too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I should note that it IS possible to have a breeding program which consistently produces merles, without resorting to shady breeding practices. Since merle is dominant you only need an obvously merle dog or bitch to produce some merle pups. Careful breeders can use judicious outcrossing to ensure that their merle lines stay healthy. I'm not defending the practice of breeding for the sake of color, just clarifying this point. We simply can't assume the breeder you are refering to, "dumps" puppies. It's a common practice here unfortunately, but merles aren't all that popular over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by Dal & Mad's Mom:These are well bred dogs they are related to Mirk. Which Mirk? Do they actually work, or are they just well-bred? Breeding really is more complicated than just crossing "well-bred" dogs or dogs who are related to a well-known dog, but I assume you know that. The only reason I can think for breeding red to red merle is to get reds and red merles, and that's simply not a valid breeding criterion. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I asked that part of the question to learn using pups I know. Not an actual plan. Mirk is Dick Williams dog I'm not sure what his current National ranking is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhborder Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Ok, well I want to ask this while everyone is on the subject of merles, I was told that Merle Border Collies have pink skin-leaving them more sensitive to the sun. I haven't been around any merle border collies to know if this is true or not, I did take a look at my cousins Blue merle Aussie and as far as I could tell, his skin was the same collar as my Black and white Dogs, of course it would be worth mentioning that I'm color deficient. Thanks Guys!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Originally posted by Rhborder:Ok, well I want to ask this while everyone is on the subject of merles, I was told that Merle Border Collies have pink skin-leaving them more sensitive to the sun. I have a friend with a Blue Merle and she said that the dog was more heat sensitive than the average BC. She had discussed this with someone who has had many BC's and sees lots of BC's and that person's observation was that the Merles do seem to have more trouble with hot weather. Nothing scientific though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 My merle is very heat-tolerant - she was always the last BC to get the big lolling tongue in the bunch. I always figured her silverey color reflected more heat. She did have some pink skin underneath, but all her dark parts were dark underneath, I believe (she lives with someone else now so I can't check for sure). My black and whites have pink bellies... but they get a lot hotter a lot faster than my merle did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhborder Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 I noticed that my black and white ones have pink bellies as well, especially Kiowa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronHorse Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Jasmine is the first merle I have ever had so I by no means would claim to assess all merles,but as far as skin pigmentation goes she has the same colorations as my black and whites. As far as being heat tolerant I would say that of my bunch go she is by far more heat tolerant then either ThunderBolt or Lulu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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