question about the DNA test for CEA

[steve clendenin]

I bred a dog and bitch that tested clear but to make sure I HAD THE PUPS TESTED JUST TO MAKE SURE THE PUPS WERE CLEAR.

To get the eye exame her it cost $35 for the first pup and $25 for the rest of the pups.

But as far as testing for every thing we will end up not having any

[Bill Fosher]

Samantha and Windscorpion,

 

I've noticed that you discuss the preservation of the breed quite a bit. To me, that's not enough. We want to be improving the breed, not preserving it.

 

To understand what's needed to improve the breed, you have to understand what makes the breed, and you have to understand the fact that every single bit of selection pressure that is placed on one trait by definition takes selection pressure off of other traits.

 

So let's start with what makes the breed: working ability. Border collies should be bred for working abilty first, last, and only. One of the reasons for the concern over CEA and the reason that this new genetic test is so useful is that it allows us to rationally continue breeding dogs based on their working ability.

 

If unaffected carriers were disqualified from breeding, the estimate is that about 25 percent of the population would be out of the gene pool. How many generations would it take before we noticed that, through some quirk of fate, the unaffected CEA carriers also were the ones that had the best outruns or were the ones that read sheep the best? Or worse yet, that they were the ones that had resistance to von Willebrands disease.

 

One of the best ways to improve the breed is to make sure that the pups are placed in places where their ability to work can be tested and proven. Those places are farms and ranches. The tests you propose conducting are either going to have to be funded by you, personally, or by the people who buy pups from you. If you choose the former route and can still sell pups at prices that farmers and ranchers can afford ($200 to $600), then that's all great. But if you try to recover the cost of those tests in your puppy price, you will probably have to charge $1,200 plus per pup, and repeat the breedings many times in order to recoup your expenses.

 

The problem here is that you will be breeding pups that are expensive, you will be under economic pressure to repeat the breeding before the pups have shown whehter the breeding was a good one, and you'll have sold your pups to people who probably have no way to knowing whether the breeding was a good one because they won't be working homes. You'll have incurred all these expenses to gain information that has little or no value to the puppy buyer: you'll have proof that there are no tigers in Saskatchewan.

 

If preserving the breed means producing pups that cost more than they are worth to the people who use them, then the breed is doomed. In fact, I'd say that any breeding program aimed at merely preserving the breed is aiming a bit too low.

[Denise Wall]

Thank you, Steve. I'd like to point out that it was the ABCA (the working border collie registry), the USBCC (sponsor of these BC Boards), and individuals from the working border collie community that were by far the primary contributors to the research that led to the development of this CEA DNA test. That's called putting our money where our mouth is with regard to caring about the genetic health of the working border collie breed.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

To me, that's not enough. We want to be improving the breed, not preserving it.

Here, here Bill! Well put.

 

Honestly, I do not understand why there is even an argument on this subject. Of course, there will always be differing opinions, but how can it be viewed as anything but beneficial? The new CEA test is going to assist in IMPROVING the breed. The years of diligent work that has been put into this research is not something to just poo poo.

 

I was disgusted with the criticism that Denise, Eileen and the ABCA received about the Swafford case last year and I certainly hope that this does not head in the same direction. These people need to be applauded, not condemned.

 

So, I would like to say thank you to Denise, Eileen and the other members of the H&G Committee for a job well done.

[Guest hdk9s]

ok since we are both awake and reading all this we are going to reply together. Hope to not confuse anyone.

 

That's what shifting the focus of selection for soundness, from function to clinical testing, WILL do, until such time that every dysfunction, disease, and other source of unsoundness, is testable and pretty much free of charge.

No one said anything about *shifting* the focus just broading it. We believe in culling. Spaying and Neutering.

 

Because a good working breeder would have more sense than that.

What basis to speak for *all* good working breeders? Everyone is different with their methods. I feel that you are painting the picture of that rancher that says "Ole Jake over there is a good fellow, in his day, before he got old and went blind and got arthrites he was a good hand. we need to get some pups outta him before he kicks over..." That is the picture you are painting for me. Intentional or unitentional. Breeding is more now.

 

Can you say the same? Or does "testing for everything" just seem like a good idea to you. Such a good idea that anybody who thinks differently couldn't possibly have the good of the breed at heart.

No actually it seems like this is most of the boards mentality. If someone tests they are bad. Again just the picture that is being painted. Intentional or not.

 

Okay, on what is your opinion based? What knowledge and experience with border collies? Or veterinary medicine? Or population genetics?

 

Denise has shared with you her credentials. What are yours?

Denise shared hers with the intent to intimadate and validate her opinions. That doesn't impress me. I guess we should just roll over and say "Well good gracious, look at the letters behind her name. She must be right. Crap can all those tests we don't need them". L

 

We have done rescue for the breed for some time, as well as other breeds and seen what genetic problems creeping up into other breeds. As well as what happens to herding breeds that are placed into everyday homes turn out like. We currently have one here that will more than likely stay with us forever because of unknowledge homes. I (Samantha) am a vet tech. The clinic I worked for did a lot of testing for breeders so I know the issues how they work and how they are tested for. I have heard so many breeders say "oh that is not in my line or breed" and then before you know it they are in the clinic with an afflicted dog or litter. I *KNOW* first hand it happens. I have seen a puppy die on the operating table during a ear crop because its heart stopped, but "this breed does not have heart probelms" yeah right it happens is all we are saying. Why not look for and cull it.

 

Carol has Major in Biology and a minor is chemistry, she knows its not much.

 

I know how hard Denise has work on making the WORKING BORDER COLLIE and with out her a few other people that cares for the breed we would still be breed dog with CEA and other problems

And we appreciate that. But 10 years ago I am sure if I was testing for that I would be sitting here being bashed for that too.

 

I bred a dog and bitch that tested clear but to make sure I HAD THE PUPS TESTED JUST TO MAKE SURE THE PUPS WERE CLEAR.

So do you feel crazy or less of a breeder? Or secure that your pups are healthy?

 

We want to be improving the breed, not preserving it.

So why can you not see that testing will improve the breed?

 

If unaffected carriers were disqualified from breeding, the estimate is that about 25 percent of the population would be out of the gene pool.

If they are carriers that can pass on a nasty gene, good riddance. You just culled a genetic deficiency and improved the gene pool that is left and the future gene pool. in the end a healthier breed.

 

The tests you propose conducting are either going to have to be funded by you, personally, or by the people who buy pups from you. If you choose the former route and can still sell pups at prices that farmers and ranchers can afford ($200 to $600),

We are not worried about selling pups are you? IMO if you dont have the funds to do right by the dogs and not bump up the price to make money or cover every expence you should not be breeding. IMO I would rather give a pup to a goods working home than sell one for 1,000 dolllars to a nice rich family. how about you?

 

In summary we just need to agree to disagree. This thread has gone around in circles for too long. You go forward with your programs and we will do the same. Ten years down the road, if we are wrong then we will say so. Just hope that you guys would be big enough to do the same. Or will you still be buying pups outta Ole Jake?

 

Samantha &

Windscorpion

[Denise Wall]

Well, Samantha & Windscorpion you're right that we aren't agreeing and it looks as if that isn't going to change right now. All I can say is I hope you take some time to study some current population genetics principles before you do any serious breeding.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by High Desert K9s:

Denise shared hers with the intent to intimadate and validate her opinions. That doesn't impress me. I guess we should just roll over and say "Well good gracious, look at the letters behind her name. She must be right. Crap can all those tests we don't need them".

Samantha and Windscorpion, this comment was completely rude and unnecessary. Denise's intent was not to intimidate you or validate her opinions. She has done research on the breed for many, many years and is highly informed.

 

Let's see, between you both you have done Border Collie rescue, work as a vet tech, have a Major in Biology and a minor in chemistry. I guess this makes you guys more knowledgable on the subject of genetic testing than Denise or others on the H&G Committee?

 

Are you a "licensed" vet tech? When applying for a job, did you not come across hospitals that would only hire licensed tech's? There is a reason for that. If you did go to vet tech school and received the credentials to call yourself a licensed tech, then don't you think you are much better informed and knowledgable in that field than someone who did not go to school?

 

You need to pull your heads out of the sand.

[Eileen Stein]

Samantha, on January 21 you posted to these boards asking "So what are the most previlant illnesses in BCs?" Now, less than two weeks later, you know more about the appropriate genetic testing and management of diseases in border collies than people who have been working intensively on these issues for more years than the number of DAYS since you asked your question. You're right -- nothing any of us can say will shake that kind of self-confidence. Besides, if you perceive "the boards mentality" as being "if someone tests they are bad," then not much we say is even going to be understood by you.

 

So let's turn to a different but related subject. You have said several times that OF COURSE you will be breeding the pup you're giving all these tests to only if it proves out as a herding dog. You have said that "in 10 years when I have had a few littlers" maybe you will be a breeder who regularly breeds outstanding working border collies.

 

Tell us about how you see yourself meeting the fundamental requirement of being a good border collie breeder (i.e., the hard part, as opposed to ordering a battery of tests, which couldn't be easier). Where did you go to get your pup and why did you choose the pup you did? What is your plan for training the pup and determining its working quality? Do you have livestock, and if so, what type of operation? Specifically, what will you be doing to turn this pup into a good working dog? What do you expect the timetable to be for achieving this? Again specifically, how will you measure whether you have succeeded or not?

 

The answers to these questions will indicate how much thought you've given to the the most fundamental, basic essential of being a good border collie breeder.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ten years down the road I may be taking a bitch TO "Ol Jake" if he has what I need in terms of working ability that complements my bitch. That's priority one.

 

Let's say Ol' Jake is a littermate of Ann's whose eyes Steve had screened as a pup. By that time Jake will have had a similiar life to Ann's sire, working on a full-time commercial sheep operation and being trained to a high level of competition.

 

Let's say my bitch was DNA confirmed NORMAL (since I will choose to DNA test all my breeding stock). I can breed her to any stud that was CERFed as a pup, or even to any dog that had missed that window, but if I select Ol' Jake I know no affected pups will be produced, and very few carriers in fact.

 

Similiarly, let's say Ol' Jake gets DNA confirmed Normal himself. I import a bitch "off the hill" who's never even seen a vet until gets her travel certification, much less gotten a CERF exam in the pre-go-normal window. Assume she is an amazing asset to the breed in terms of lineage and working ability, and she continues to prove her ability and soundness here. EVEN IF SHE IS AFFECTED - I know the worst she will pass to her pups is "carrier" status.

 

Do you see how testing is used to responsibly expand my choices, not eliminate them?

 

If they are carriers that can pass on a nasty gene, good riddance. You just culled a genetic deficiency and improved the gene pool that is left and the future gene pool. in the end a healthier breed.

The alleles that carry disease are not themselves "nasty" - that's an emotional reaction and a closeminded view that will get us in trouble down the road if we are not careful. Look at the link between sickle-cell anemia and resistance to malaria. We have to be REALLY CAREFUL to weed things out ONLY if they don't pass the functional test until we have a MUCH better understanding of how all this hangs together.

 

we need to get some pups outta him before he kicks over

Or will you still be buying pups outta Ole Jake?

Condescension alert - but she started it. Please do me a favor - if you aren't going to get the facts about responsible breeding before you go for it, please at least learn the vernacular. You get a pup BY Ol' Jake, and "outta" Old Maid.

[Valhalla]

Samantha and windscorpion, here is some information that may be of interest to you.

 

<<Cornell Gives ABCA Genetics Award

On October 10, 2003, Sally Lacy, Chair of the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee accepted the Cornell University's Baker Institute's John A. Lafore Kennel Club Award on behalf ot the Association. This award is given in recognition "of a kennel club or breed-affiliated organisation's outstanding contributions to the advancement of canine health through their support to research and education.

The ABCA has funded genetic research at Cornell since 1999. The award cites the ABCA: "We would like to recognize the Association's enlightened and active role in breeding. The Association's longstanding commitement is helping to ensure health for future generations of companion animals.">>

[Guest hdk9s]

The wording was specificly chosen to accentuate the ignorance of a person who breeds a dog based on performance only ignoring the modern tools to ensure a healthy dog. The pup was chosen based on pedigree, testing (the most we could find which was sorry to say not what we will do but still well within YOUR standards) and working ability of ancestors. We have teamed with various trainers and working owners so that when the 8 week old is ready to work past our ducks, there is a plan. He has an evaluation scheduled this month. Is that okay by you? The thing that you must understand is that he can be the number 1 dog in the country BUT if he doesn't past all our tests he will be herding ball-less. IS that okay by you or AM I A BAD BREEDER? NOW as I said before. You do it your way and I will do it my way. See where we end up. GOOD LUCK and God bless OLE JAKES lines. I hope that they are good. (The sickle cell comment was very weak. I cause far more dispare than it does good. Only researched and isolated THROUGH testing can it be anything but devastating and NASTY)

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by High Desert K9s:

The pup was chosen based on pedigree, testing and working ability of ancestors. We have teamed with various trainers and working owners so that when the 8 week old is ready to work past our ducks, there is a plan. He has an evaluation scheduled this month. Is that okay by you?

Just out of curiousity, how is your pup bred? And what kind of an evaluation do you have scheduled for an 8 week old pup this month?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, Steve keeps slapping my hand for letting my eleven (I think) week old pup get access to MY ducks.

 

She won't get to try out sheep until six months, probably, and then probably won't start serious training until she's a year old.

 

After that it will take her a minimum of two years to get to Open. After that I suppose it depends on whether I ever get my act together, but if she's a nice dog she'll start showing consistent ability in yet another year or so.

 

That's four years.

 

Now, I might also add that if you've never done this before, it's very rare for anyone to get to the level in four years where they are able to confidently assess their own dog's working ability. A lifetime in livestock is a big help but it's still a steep learning curve. It's taken me seven years to get to a point where I can even troubleshoot a dog someone else trained for me.

 

All right, let's go in a different direction. My first three dogs were rescued/purchased to work my sheep. I didn't even have breeding in mind until my third dog turned out to be something of a prodigy. I rarely even trialed for many years, in fact.

 

I get leery of a breeder who buys a pup with BREEDING in mind, not working livestock. What kind of livestock do you have, that your pup potentially will match in style of working? My sheep prefer little eye, a dog that will take charge of multiple animals at once rather than working the head, and need a confident approach. Good flanks are a must as my operation contains many, many tight spots and quick independent thought combined with a cool head is usually required as my sheep are quick to take advantage of weakness.

 

So tell us what you hope from your pup. People couldn't get me to shut up about my new young un and her parents and I'm sure you are the same way. Give us the scoop!

[Eileen Stein]

The lack of specifics in your answer makes it pretty clear you've given little or no thought to what is necessary to breed good border collies. What do you mean when you say the pup "was chosen based on pedigree, testing . . . and working ability of ancestors"? What specifically were the features of his pedigree that made you choose him? What specifically was the testing that made you choose him? What specifically was the working ability of his ancestors? Were they his parents, or were they more remote ancestors than that? What other pups/pedigrees did you consider, and why did you select the one you did rather than them?

 

Who are the "various trainers and working owners" you have "teamed with" (not necessarily by name, if you don't want to identify them, but how many are there, what is the nature of their experience in training working dogs, and what is their relationship to you)? Are they the "two lovely ladies" you referred to when you said, "we bought a dog to have fun with and IF he turns out we will test him for health stuff and if all is well we will get input from the two lovely ladies we know and get a suitable excellent female," or are they additional people? And what does it mean that you have "teamed with" them, exactly -- what form has your "teaming" taken? What is the "plan" your team has come up with? What is your 8-week-old pup going to be evaluated for, who will be evaluating him, and how is the evaluation going to be conducted? Also, you didn't really address this part of my query:

 

"Specifically, what will you be doing to turn this pup into a good working dog? What do you expect the timetable to be for achieving this? Again specifically, how will you measure whether you have succeeded or not?"

 

Of course, you don't have to answer any of these questions if you don't want to, but the fact that you don't seem to want to talk about this very much suggests to me that it's not of as much importance to you as testing for as many genetic diseases as you can think of.

 

>

 

Oh yes, I understand that part. I'm very familiar with breeders who put more thought and effort into coming up with an impressive array of genetic testing than in producing good border collies, bred for working ability. I believe I commented on that type of breeder earlier. I thought you assured me you would not be one of them.

[SoloRiver]

(The sickle cell comment was very weak. I cause far more dispare than it does good. Only researched and isolated THROUGH testing can it be anything but devastating and NASTY)

 

The effect of an allele and its relative value cannot be divorced from its context. Sickle cell trait (analogous to the "carrier" condition of CEA, in which the individual has one normal allele and one sickle allele) is highly beneficial in areas where malaria is endemic because malaria is often fatal and sickle cell trait confers resistance to malaria. We're not talking about laboratory testing here, we're talking about natural selection in action. The relationship between sickle cell and malaria in subsaharan African populations is the classic example of a balanced polymorphism in nature, which anyone with even a passing interest in population genetics should be well familiar with.

 

http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html

[steve clendenin]

"So do you feel crazy or less of a breeder? Or secure that your pups are healthy "

 

I will not debate with you about me being crazy because, in a lot of peoples eyes I might be.

 

As for feeling secure I do not need any test to make me feel secure. I know my dogs very well but to make sure a human had not made a mistake about passing my dog and bitch when they were pups I spent the money for the test. If I can not make the breed better then I will not let pups leave me with any defect I know about.

I'm going to get kind of rude with you about my dog the WORKING BORDER COLLIE.

I told this to a woman about 15 years ago and I still feel the same way, since I use my dog ever day to handle my livestock. I trial for my ego not the dogs because they don't care or know when we win or lose, just that they got the chance to work livestock. But trials show us humans which line of dogs have the instinct to work and the personality to take training.

I would rather have a dog that is blind in one eye and can not see much out of the other eye and running on three legs that will go out and bring my stock to the barn than to have a dog that only lies on the back porch and licks where his testicals use to be.

I might be the old farmer that has OLD JAKE

[steve clendenin]

I did not finish the last post the last line should read.

that past all of you test

[Bill Fosher]

Samantha,

 

Do you really think that the Border collie can remain a genetically healthy breed if you eliminate 25 percent of the gene pool? That's one dog in four. Think about it for a hour or two.

 

Now think about what you're trying to avoid. A gene that causes disease in less than two percent of the population, and in many cases the disease is so mild that it's not even detectable except by clinical examination.

 

And then think about what we don't know about the dog genome and what may or may not be linked to other genes.

 

The Border collie is a very healthy breed at the genetic level, and would certainly not benefit from the elimination of carriers of CEA, particularly now since we have a sure fire way of determining whether their offspring will have the disease.

[Guest windscorpion]

First I remain vague because you guys are so quick to bash. You have an excellent knack to enlighten. You should be teachers. The pup was chosen for the reasons listed. The Club that invited us to the evaluation was upbeat and happy to have us. I AGAIN say we disagree but you like to argue. I will not change my views no matter what you say. SAM will test her dog. Be afraid or be relieved whatever. IF you think that breeding carriers is okay so be it. I think it is LAME. YES I think the gene pool would be better without them and will be a vocal advocate of that. Working means nothing if a dog is geneticly weak AND VISA VERSA. The best to the best each and every time or you are just in it for the money. I am so glad that I come here for entertainment versa education. And yes everything has a reason for being but would I have children if I carried the sickle cell gene. HELL NO. Live in fear. Go through life with blinders on. I think that you are NUTS not to take advantage of the tools given to you. If anyone here is Amish raise your hands. Now. I am past the novelity of entertainment here. I don't know where Samantha stands on it but I personally think you guys have your heads in the sand. So give Old Jake a pat on the head and hope for the best.

Windscorpion.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Steve,

 

>>I might be the old farmer that has OLD JAKE<<

 

I would honored get a pup from you.

You have what it takes as well as your dogs

 

Diane Pagel

www.deltabluez.net

[Pearse]

Steve.

 

This was one of the most "right on" comments I've had the pleasure of reading for a long time. I've heard similarly put before from people like yourself who know dogs and stock and have put in the time and effort to understand both but it's good to see it put so eloquently and succinctly:

 

I told this to a woman about 15 years ago and I still feel the same way, since I use my dog ever day to handle my livestock. I trial for my ego not the dogs because they don't care or know when we win or lose, just that they got the chance to work livestock. But trials show us humans which line of dogs have the instinct to work and the personality to take training.

Thanks,

 

Pearse

[Tassie]

On the breeding CEA carriers issue. Could I suggest that Samantha and Windscorpion read carefully the information on the Optigen website. Optigen are pretty clear that their test allows CEA carriers to be bred confidently, provided they are bred to a mate that tests normal. This means that carrier dogs with the outstanding stock-working abilities which means they should be producing offspring to improve the breed (in the working sense) *can* be safely bred. Good breeders of working Border Collies will ensure not only that the proposed mate complements the carrier in working style, but that the proposed mate is DNA tested normal. Affected dogs cannot be produced from this breeding.

 

The point is that the CEA DNA test is so important because it allows us to retain worthy (in their work) carrier dogs in the gene pool, thus not losing their special working characteristics which might not be found in the same degree in CEA normal dogs.

 

My understanding is that the majority of people on the Boards who have an interest are *not* anti-testing, but anti unnecessary testing which does not promote the strengthening of the working abilities of the breed. (And I mean proper working ability, tested ?on the hill? in real livestock operation.)

 

My credentials? - A keen interest in the topic, since I have a very mildly affected CEA bitch, a show/sports bred dog who through some wonderful accident of genetics has thrown back to her dim distant working ancestors, and is proving to be a pretty useful little farm dog, even in my novice hands. She is desexed, but if she were not, should she be bred? No ? not just because of the CEA, but because even if she were CEA normal, she would not add anything of value to the breed. She is a useful worker on the farm, but not special enough to improve the breed.

[Guest windscorpion]

Yes I did ask that 2 weeks ago. And in those two weeks I have done a lot of reading and guess what, as if you all care, VwD is in the breed. SO will you now test for it?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, I will test for Von Willebrands, and many things you didn't mention in your genetic laundry list. I will not breed any dog until it has had many years of hard work, to screen for Von Willebrands, as well as many, many other possible unsoundnesses for which NO clinical evaluations exist today.

 

Do you understand? By combining rational clinical screening for things that are difficult to catch while working (or things I'd want to know before investing a lot of training in a dog, like hearing, eye, and hip problems) with the kind of work for which these dogs were originated, we can focus on the whole dog instead of looking at pups like little lab animals.

 

But I've noticed that about breeders who focus on their dogs as potential breeding machines. Instead of discussion of their dogs' abilities and potential, and what they get out of their partnership with their canine other half, you hear a lot of talk about "beauty and brains" and "structural soundness". As if the shepherds whose bread and butter depended on the ability of this breed to run for miles every day, weren't interested in soundness - and these modern breeders just invented soundness.

 

Let me ask you. Did you make sure the parents of your pup could work all day in all weather, on hills and on rough terrain and in woods where a well-coupled body and sharp hearing and split-second accurate eyesight are crucial? At night? Have you seen them work pens/chutes/trailers and take the beating that goes on in there? Did you make sure they have the temperament to adapt to different types of stock unfamiliar to them, or working stock in a totally environment?

 

Do you plan to do this with your pup? Do you plan to evaluate your pup's mate in this way?

 

If not, then you haven't done ALL the testing needed to ensure that what YOU produce is at least as healthy as the previous generations, not to mention making improvements.

 

Good luck in your endeavors. You sound very young - my hope is that you will come to understand the serious error of what you are proposing someday. Your roommate has been inquiring about vitamins, food, other basic dog care questions - possibly you both need to sit back and enjoy your new pup and learn more about dogs in general and this breed in particular before you consider breeding.

[Guest hdk9s]

Good luck in your endeavors. You sound very young - my hope is that you will come to understand the serious error of what you are proposing someday. Your roommate has been inquiring about vitamins, food, other basic dog care questions - possibly you both need to sit back and enjoy your new pup and learn more about dogs in general and this breed in particular before you consider breeding.

Um, its great that you will be testing. Yes I will be doing all that with my pup. I will have fun with my pup. I am sorry if you guys thought I bought this pup just to breed. Like I said I may not ever breed him have no plans as of now to breed him.

 

As far as the topics I have started about vitamins etc, I was stricking up conversations. I feed the food I feed, I know about caring for dogs. Like I said I am a vet tech. Doesnt mean much but it does not matter. I know about caring for dogs, dont act like I am stupid please. I really dont want to argue. It was a stupid arguement.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone. Hope to maybe meet all of you one day at a trial I am sure if we are not all worked up about breeding we coul dhave a good conversation. We have agreed in the past so lets just leave this subject be.