Obsessive-compulsive behavior?

[Cholla1]

My 4 1/2 month old puppy Zip has been coming with me to a house building site on another part of the ranch than where we live and was roaming around there while I was working yesterday afternoon.

 

She has been running around, happily climbing up the sand piles and sliding down etc. until yesterday afternoon, when I saw her running up and down the dirt road for about some 200' and chasing the little puffs of dirt she was stirring up with her feet in the light wind.

 

She had been evidently at it a while, by when I noticed that it was odd that she was in the same spot so long, as she had her tongue hanging out and slobber on her front legs.

 

I went over and tried to call her back, down her, anything to stop her but she didn't even know I was there, was "working" the dirt like in a trance.

 

I gathered a few pebbles to throw at her when she came close but she didn't even notice them so I finally had to tackle her, easy to do, once I could get in her erratic path, since she didn't seem to see me at all.

 

Even after holding her, she kept straining to chase some more, goofy like.

I took her to her water bowl by the pickup and she drank and drank.

 

We went home and she still was spaced out, looking for something around the yard, with jerky head movements, for a little before she finally gave it up.

She was fine after that, no seizure activity or any other strange behaviors.

 

Obviously, I will not put her in a situation again where she can practice being goofy again.

No more loose dog for a while.

 

AK Dog Doc, seen any clients with such?

 

Anyone else has a dog that obsessed like that?

Will it go away or get worse?

Can she work cattle if she will go chase dirt puffs in the meantime and "lose it"?

 

I guess that we will have to see how things go from here. Hopefully this "goofiness" will not be repeated in this manner or any other, but it was sad to see her like that.

[blackacre]

Bad bad bad. I would put her on stock right away, in a way appropriate to her age. Say, two or three short sessions a day. Keep her confined or under your supervision the rest of the time. Hopefully, the behaviour will then be transferred to an appropriate target ie working stock.

I have a (totally unsustantiated) theory about this, that the traits we value and breed for are on a continuum, from totally absent at one end to pathological at the other. Occasionally things will go awry and you end up with a dog that is pretty close to pathological ie one prone to 'working' shadows, dust puffs, water draining down the drain, imaginary flies. I would think that it was critical that this type of dog be focussed on stock as soon as possible. I am not saying your dog is pathological, but it might be that she is being left to her own devices too much of the time.

I believe that they have studied pointers that have gone over the edge as a means of teasing out the genetic basis for behaviour. These dogs will 'freeze' when excited or frightened and essentially become catatonic. They've been able to breed a whole line of them and (I guess) in this way are trying to find the gene or genes responsible.

I also read somewhere that they were studying border collies as a way to get at understanding attention deficit disorder in kids.

Anyone have references to these studies?

A.

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with what I take Andrea to be saying -- that it's desirable for working border collies to be on the obsessive-compulsive side, and that sometimes there's a little too big a dose of that in the genetic mix, or it can get focused in a way that is not constructive on dirt, water, shadows, etc. I don't believe it's usually that big a problem, though. I think of one dog I know who was fixated on "the dirt game" in puppyhood, and who has turned into a real good dog who is now placing in Open at age 3. Her person just casually discouraged it whenever it occurred, but didn't take any drastic measures. The dog still will do it sometimes, but only very occasionally, and never while working. So if it were me I'd just take steps to make sure it didn't happen again within the next couple of weeks (when the habit-forming potential would be strongest), and then just mildly discourage it through repeatedly stopping her if/when it happens thereafter.

[AK dog doc]

I haven't had any patients with this behavior (or similar ones) but Finn's sister went through a stage where she'd jump over any shadow she saw (or tried to), including her own, and my office manager, when telling people why they might not want a BC like that pretty one on TV, likes to tell people of one she saw when she was camping at the beach, which spent to entire day herding the waves as they went in and out. I agree with the idea that we WANT a certain amount of obsession in BCs - they need to keep their focus to do their job - and that removing the pup from the situation for a while would be a good idea - partly to discourage the habit, and partly because it sounds like she just exhausted herself with it, both physically and mentally. Maybe too overstimulating for a pup her age, like that thing where you try not to overstimulate small children because it overwhelms them. I don't think this is an indicator of a health problem, however. In another breed, I suppose it might be, but it seems like she just got overexcited with it and sort of got stuck in a loop.

 

As far as how to focus her attention elsewhere - on an appropriate target - I'll leave that to the training experts here. However, it does sound as if she has a lot of drive. If she's showing that consistently, she may be coming to a time when it would be appropriate to give her a little bit of an outlet for it. However, in this I'll bow to the expereinced stockdog people.

[Cholla1]

Thank you all for your informative posts.

 

I knew one border collie that at about this age started chasing imaginary flies, but she was not "intent" on them, just snapping at the air indiscriminately. She also never "turned on" on stock, would only play with them, tail over her back, happily sauntering around.

I am not sure that her problem was part of a proper herding instinct.

 

Another puppy was biting at imaginary flies at seven weeks of age and the vet thought that it may be a liver shunt involved and that snapping being part of seizuring.

 

There were some studies in cocker spaniels, I think, that had several dogs in some lines that did the fly snappping and in them it was determined that it was part of epilepsy.

 

Zip was intensely focused, not playing around and it seemed that she was "heading" the dirt puffs, going from one to the next.

 

This puppy is really not coordinated enough to put on stock, I don't think. She is growing big, lanky and gangly right now.

She wants to work soooo bad, so is not around any stock now, except the horses, on leash, that she knows to leave alone.

 

The breeder is out of pocket this weekend and will have surgery next week, so I can't talk to him quite now, to see what he thinks.

We had talked about waiting for more physical development before starting her, but may rethink that now.

 

On the other hand, if this was an once only occassion and she will grow out of that tendency, we may be better off waiting until her brain comes ALL in line, before starting her on another sure enough obsession: Herding!

 

The cattle we have now are too large and just weaning, would not be right to start a puppy, only cause frustration in one, if not getting it hurt.

 

That place where we were is the only one where she was turned loose to run and play. I have a 10' by 10' dog pen there for her and she was in it while I was working with the tractor for about two hours and then I let her out.

Every time I looked over she was laying in the pen, asleep or looking at me, but maybe she did get frustrated in there and that wound her up?

 

Zip is an excellent puppy, minds extremely well and learns very fast.

She doesn't have to work cattle anyway, if she doesn't is fine with me.

She is resting around today, so she did get tired yesterday from all that running.

 

I will watch very carefully now, to be sure she doesn't get into such a situation again.

She has not tried to chase anything today and the wind is really blowing weeds and dirt by the yard this afternoon.

 

Glad to know that another dog did the dirt chasing and still could be kept from doing it too much.

 

Thanks to all.

[AK dog doc]

"Fly-biting" behavior CAN be part of a mental disorder (epilepsy , brain injury, distemper-induced seizure disorder, etc) but in that case it's *imaginary* flies they're biting at - your pup was chasing *real* dust motes. So I don't think I'd worry about it being a mental disorder - although I'm absolutely sure Finn has any number of those!

[Cholla1]

Oh, thank you! That is an important distinction I didn't think to make.

She was seeing the dust go by.

 

We went for a walk now (on leash!) and yes, she would like to chase the weeds going by this windy afternoon.

That is normal puppy behavior but I am jumpy about it now.

 

My other puppy was very quick, coordinated and steady at this age but this one is quick but takes tumbles once in a while, when her legs go faster than she can handle.

Not the best way of moving to start one on cattle.

 

Zip told me to tell Finn: "From one odd bird to another, keep them guessing!"

[HerdinGal]

Imaginary Fly/Air biting is totally different that what you are seeing. The imaginary stuff can be epilepsy, vision issues, mental issues, even a response to a vaccines (as identifed by Dr W Jean Dodds DVM at a seminar I was at) like the Rabies one.

 

What your dog is doing is probably the result of a very bright mind, opportunity, and boredom. We had a pup start the same thing, but fortunately I was there to see the triggering event. In his case he pawed the dirt because he saw a frog hop, then he realized that there was more than one, in fact lots, all hopping and moving and great fun... and presto...habit born. It took 3 strong minded adults and constant supervision for months to change his mind about hunting those funny frogs (even if there weren't any) at every chance he got.

 

I've seen BCs do similar things with squirrels. They start out chasing them, then try climbing the tree after them, and shortly they don't need the squirrel for real...just the tree and a bright imagination. And a helmet because the habit just gets worse until they are climbing an falling out of the tree over and over and over again.

 

If you didn't see the triggering event you would have thought these dogs were nuts.

 

Put your pup up if you can't watch him closely and make sure it's in a place that doesn't allow him to continue the habit. Start taking him to stock as well, or if he's not turned on yet increase his mental and physical exercise under supervision. And if you see him start the habit a stern, unrelenting NO is called for. Do not put up with it even if you can live with it at this level. Because remember...this is a BC, and even bad habits come under there motto of "faster, higher, better". Left alone bad does not get better...it gets worse.

 

My tree climber is working cattle in Oklahoma (no trees) and the frog chaser is turning into a superb nursery dog on both sheep and cattle.

[SoloRiver]

I believe that they have studied pointers that have gone over the edge as a means of teasing out the genetic basis for behaviour. These dogs will 'freeze' when excited or frightened and essentially become catatonic. They've been able to breed a whole line of them and (I guess) in this way are trying to find the gene or genes responsible.

 

There's some description of the project (from a New Yorker article) here:

 

http://www.jeromegroopman.com/dg.html

 

And a Pubmed search (for "nervous pointer dogs"):

 

http://tinyurl.com/3hbmv

 

They were featured in last week's NOVA special "Dogs and More Dogs," in a segment with Solo's shrink. (The succeeding segment, which I found fascinating, featured a narcoleptic Dachshund and two narcoleptic Dobermans.)

[blackacre]

Interesting stuff.

A.

[Cholla1]

Well, I took Zip up there with me this AM and she came out of the pickup ready to chase.

I made her heel and we heeled and downed there for a while.

Then I kept her tied to me or on a down by me and later did some more heeling around that spot and she by then didn't try to look at anything to chase, was working fine for me.

 

She is a little sore today on her right front foot, from Saturday's chasing, I assume, where she made most turns to the right.

Will have to watch that when herding, if she has a tendency to turn better right.

She is left handed, normally, so maybe it was the direction of the wind that made her turn right so much.

 

A neighbor came by and she held her down (she loves people and had a few issues about straining to see them and jumping on them if she could).

 

Maybe we will be able to get past this little problem if she doesn't have any chance to repeat, but I wonder where that anxiety will surface next if she doesn't outgrow it.

 

Those were interesting articles. Thanks.

 

P.S. A friend's golden saw a squirrel in a tree as a puppy and chased it around and around and has since spent every chance she get's outside still chasing that squirrel.

The squirrels are not around sometimes for six months but she is still running out and around that tree many times a day.

I won't let mine repeat those kinds of actions over and over, of course, if I possible can.

[Bounce]

I had to smile at Blackacres post. I'm a school bus driver amd I LOVE my job. My second run of the day involves transferring about 15 kids with attention deficit disorder to school with a program for them. They are known as the Border Collie Bus. Great kids individually, but as a group they're more trouble than the other 95 kids I see in a day.