Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Inspired by the post in Coffee Break, I thought it would be fun for those of us who enjoy this sort of thing to have some "trainer talk"!! With Bandit just past two years old now, he and I are starting to move from "enjoy moving with me with tons of reinforcement" to actually heeling training. I find that I am really giving this a lot of consideration because there are so many approaches available to us now! Back when I trained Dean to heel, I stood with him between myself and a straight edge (like a wall or piece of furniture), and I clicked and treated him just for standing there. Then I moved to tossing the treat behind me and he got a click/treat for moving into position. Once he could do that, I started with him stationary, took one step forward, click/treat, and we gradually built duration. Dean being Dean, he had no issue whatsoever transferring this into contexts where he was not against a wall. It worked very well. He is, hands down, the best heeler of any of my dogs. But a lot of other approaches have come into prominence since then. Starting on a pivot disc, long platforms, use of a hand target/visual target, Denise Fenzi's Pocket Hand, and, of course, there are always the "choose to heel" type methods. The cool thing is that with so many different ways to approach heeling, it really is possible to customize the training to the individual dog. With Bandit I am going with a combination of the way I trained Dean and straight platforms to build value and understanding into stationary position. When we start moving, I plan to incorporate a visual target.But it's a great topic to discuss!! With the development of lots of great stuff, have you changed the way you get into heelwork with your dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Dear Kristine, I've no use for formal heeling but do need to control my dogs' immediate environment by facing things FIRST before the dogs do. We may be walking toward a charging dog, an ill mannered kid a Kootchy-koo in a motel or a 4th of July redneck party on the riverbank with toddlers they'll protect and guns to do it with. When things get iffy for whatever reason, I want my dogs close behind me never forging ahead, Presently just three but I have had seven dogs off lead, walking behind. "Get Behind" brings them in from their doggy investigations.. It's easy to train. I take a crook, get them behind and "ach!" and rap the ground in front of them when they forge, "Get behind!" Some learn it two sessions, a few take four. The biggest difficulty isn't dogs forging in front, it's dogs hanging so far back they become a 2nd Unit. They must be summoned back to the pack and then "Get behind!" said sweeter. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 If I could train heeling all over again, I'd likely sample a great deal from the tactics used in IPO to build an intense and drivey prance. It can be so beautifully precise. I think the key is working on the attitude and rewarding with loads of play before movement enters the equation. I suffer from only having the one dog, and from having taught the beginnings of heeling so long ago, so I feel like I've forgotten most of what I've done over the years. Mostly loads of pivots and engagement, and these days I focus less on position and more on attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I've only taught two dogs to heel. One I used luring (basically) and food and the other, who is short, I did a choose to heel type of thing. Both worked fine and got me a nice, heads up, happy heel. And then promptly discovered I hate walking with a heeling dog. It makes me claustrophobic and makes me feel like I'm going to trip over the dog, so I stopped. If I did it again I'd do more pivoting and platforms I think. I probably won't do it again, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I'm with Sekah on IPO heeling, I'm quite envious. I have some friends doing ring sports, I'm going to pick their brains. I taught Keeper on a pivot disk (read: Frisbee). It just really clicked with him for some reason, he now has a rock solid heel, and would have a rock solid side if I were a better trainer. Mom's pup is absolutely not getting pivot work whatsoever, so I'm having to change my tactics. I'm now working him on a wall with light perch work on the ends. He's a very cool pup, but he's super immature. At this point he's just not capable of doing some higher level maneuvers. Keeper knew more at 10 weeks than Scoot does at 5.5 months. Oh well, he's not my dog, my mom doesn't need near as much as I do from a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Dear Kristine, I've no use for formal heeling but do need to control my dogs' immediate environment by facing things FIRST before the dogs do. We may be walking toward a charging dog, an ill mannered kid a Kootchy-koo in a motel or a 4th of July redneck party on the riverbank with toddlers they'll protect and guns to do it with. When things get iffy for whatever reason, I want my dogs close behind me never forging ahead, Presently just three but I have had seven dogs off lead, walking behind. "Get Behind" brings them in from their doggy investigations.. It's easy to train. I take a crook, get them behind and "ach!" and rap the ground in front of them when they forge, "Get behind!" Some learn it two sessions, a few take four. The biggest difficulty isn't dogs forging in front, it's dogs hanging so far back they become a 2nd Unit. They must be summoned back to the pack and then "Get behind!" said sweeter. Donald McCaig Most of the dogs I've worked with haven't needed to be trained to get behind me - LOL!!! In fact, Speedy and Tessa had to learn to have the confidence to move out in front of me!! But we do teach "follow" (behind me) as a Freestyle position. It is required for the upper levels, and it is difficult because the dogs actually have to carry out behaviors behind the handler, without having eye contact. I'll be using platforms to train that with Bandit. It is a handy skill, though, when I need a dog behind me for safety. Typically, though, in those circumstances I must move in front of the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 If I could train heeling all over again, I'd likely sample a great deal from the tactics used in IPO to build an intense and drivey prance. It can be so beautifully precise. I think the key is working on the attitude and rewarding with loads of play before movement enters the equation. I suffer from only having the one dog, and from having taught the beginnings of heeling so long ago, so I feel like I've forgotten most of what I've done over the years. Mostly loads of pivots and engagement, and these days I focus less on position and more on attitude. I do have an IPO Heeling class in my Fenzi library!! I should look back at that class, too, as I make my plan for Bandit. (I think I have every basic heeling class they have offered in there, and it's really a wealth of information). I don't think I want a high step prance from him (like Speedy had). He has a smoother more "glidey" gait, and I think I am going to leave that as is, unless he starts to offer a prance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I've only taught two dogs to heel. One I used luring (basically) and food and the other, who is short, I did a choose to heel type of thing. Both worked fine and got me a nice, heads up, happy heel. And then promptly discovered I hate walking with a heeling dog. It makes me claustrophobic and makes me feel like I'm going to trip over the dog, so I stopped. If I did it again I'd do more pivoting and platforms I think. I probably won't do it again, though. I use "training walks" to teach my dogs not to heel when we are "at ease". I will cue heeling, reinforce heeling, and then encourage meandering, sniffing, and relaxed walking. They learn to toggle between the two, and then I rarely get heeling when we are out and about. But it is handy to be able to cue a close heel if I need a dog to walk very close to me to walk by an unruly dog or child or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I'm with Sekah on IPO heeling, I'm quite envious. I have some friends doing ring sports, I'm going to pick their brains. I taught Keeper on a pivot disk (read: Frisbee). It just really clicked with him for some reason, he now has a rock solid heel, and would have a rock solid side if I were a better trainer. Mom's pup is absolutely not getting pivot work whatsoever, so I'm having to change my tactics. I'm now working him on a wall with light perch work on the ends. He's a very cool pup, but he's super immature. At this point he's just not capable of doing some higher level maneuvers. Keeper knew more at 10 weeks than Scoot does at 5.5 months. Oh well, he's not my dog, my mom doesn't need near as much as I do from a dog. I trained Tessa on a pivot disk, and she has a rock solid swing into position!! It did not translate well, with her, to forward movement. I know that can vary from dog to do, but in her case, I had to work on actually teaching her to forge ahead to get her to drive up into heel. It is still a work in progress (not much progress right now since we are all about Agility at the moment). I don't think I will have that issue with Bandit since he has natural forward drive. Tessa is a lagger by nature. I think I am going to go back and read some of the lessons from the IPO heeling class. I might find some "gold" there!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I think I'm a little bit on the fence as to whether I prefer the IPO style or the British style.Since I don't do AKC Obedience, I really can choose the style that I like and run with it. Which is cool!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 In my mind, I need to know what is meant by heeling. I realize that there are several manners of heeling, and I would guess that each may need a slightly different training method? In addition to using different training methods dependent on the dog's personality? I will be following this thread because I do not have an enduring heel on either one, particularly in the presence of distractions. [Although I can't forget to say that Torque is pretty good, but I do have to keep reminding him - and that "reminding' is what I would like to see improve i.e. I don't want to have to keep reminding.] So I am looking for a heel where the dog does not have its head cranked up to look at the handler - and -- I would like to have the dog heel until I release him. [i think I have the tools/training methods to accomplish the second part, but I tend not to have the patience for it - so I accept the blame for that shortcoming.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Good point!! I'd say for the most part, this is what I want (see video below). And, on both the left and the right (Dean can do this on both sides). I'm not looking for the little hop steps he does on occasion (but those were fine). He lags just a tick at the very end, but for the most part, this is really what I am hoping for Bandit to be able to do. In fact, this Dance Division pattern is one of the first things that I hope he and I can accomplish for titling.I think Bandit is going to be just slightly more forward, but what I am really pointing to here is the natural stance (Dean's head position is the head position he chose), and the ability to maintain position. And check him out when he is on the inside of the curve!! He really understands how to move his rear end to stay in position. I definitely want that. Sometimes I think I should just train Bandit the way I trained Dean!! But then I've learned so much since then . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 This is where Bandit is with it right now. He definitely has a "looser" style than Dean. I don't mind that. He can be out away from me just a tick, and he can be a bit more forward. His body is more flowy (which is good because Dean has the hitchy hip). He holds his head up a bit more, but I am letting him choose head position. What I need to build in him, I think, is an understanding of how to maintain the position as we move along. I know he won't look like Dean, and I don't really want him to. But I do want him to be able to understand where position is, as he moves, and work to maintain it. As far as position of arms, ultimately, it will vary. For Freestyle, my arms will be all over the place. Sometimes out over him, sometimes behind my back, sometimes set in front, sometimes . . . well, it can vary quite a bit. For right now, I am training more with the classic Obedience posture, but, of course, he will have to learn to hold position even if my arms are flopping around. But that comes later. For now we need to focus on understanding of position. I'm starting to think that the way I trained Dean just might be the way to go. He obviously came to understand that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted April 2, 2016 Report Share Posted April 2, 2016 Guess because a friend and I worked hard to develop the pylon heeling method used in Max Parris' book years back, I kinda like that way. I've made modifications over the years, but it is essentially l/r shaping the proper heel position for competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted April 2, 2016 Report Share Posted April 2, 2016 use a combo of "pocket hand" and choose to heel, and since my goal is high scoring heeling I go slow, increase duration slowly and do a lot of games to teach my dog to "drive" into heel position. Best thing for my heeling was the distraction class I take which motivationally (is that a word?) challenges my dog to attend and work it right away. Now distractions are seldom an issue. Dogs who don't do obedience don't learn to heel, they learn to walk in a group ahead but not pulling and to drop on a dime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted April 2, 2016 Report Share Posted April 2, 2016 It's easy to train. I take a crook, get them behind and "ach!" and rap the ground in front of them when they forge, "Get behind!" Some learn it two sessions, a few take four. Donald McCaig Yeah, with my Gláma no prob. Max is quite a different story. I contend myself by keeping him next to me, training him to stay behind me would go to much on both our nerves. Pick your battles I say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobedvm Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 It will all depend on what I truly want - I have a loose leash walking - "with me" that means just stay near me on my left side, not pulling on leash, I have an "off you go" meaning run in my general area, but you don't have to stay near me at all. and then i have true heeling, which means you are at my side, looking at me with no variation in your position and you are paying me 100% attention. for true heeling, its a combination of me luring, thousands of reputations, and reward placement. I'm curious to know how many people truly focus on heads up heeling with their BCs? I've been working to get him a bit more upright especially in the slow, also bringing up his front feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Your "with me" sounds similar to my "let's walk", which Hannah understands (on or off lead) to mean "walk by my left side, but nix the head craning bit". She does the latter with "heel", but it feels unnatural to me so I don't like it for any length of time. Of course, we do not compete so I don't need it that much. Our "with me" is an off lead command; not a heel but a "come stick close and stay out of trouble". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'm curious to know how many people truly focus on heads up heeling with their BCs? I've been working to get him a bit more upright especially in the slow, also bringing up his front feet. I allow my dogs to choose their head position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobedvm Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Your "with me" sounds similar to my "let's walk", which Hannah understands (on or off lead) to mean "walk by my left side, but nix the head craning bit". She does the latter with "heel", but it feels unnatural to me so I don't like it for any length of time. Of course, we do not compete so I don't need it that much. Our "with me" is an off lead command; not a heel but a "come stick close and stay out of trouble". Exactly - I just want to make it clear what is expected from the dogs. On off leash hikes I typically always have cookies to reward a good recall and I do have to say, the border collie in my pack does typically by the end try to offer heads up heeling because of the large pay off. He also knows what works and runs off just to come back. He's working the system! I allow my dogs to choose their head position. For me i think it's a mix - since I lure from the very start at 8 weeks old, it creates naturally (in a dog physically capable of it) a heads up position. My doberman cannot maintain that so she has a slightly above neutral with head turn, but the BC is capable of heads up and front feet flying - and I admit to loving how it looks, so I encourage it and train it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I personally find the "heads up" look of obedience heeling terrible. It makes my neck feel sore just looking at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I personally find the "heads up" look of obedience heeling terrible. It makes my neck feel sore just looking at it. LOL Me, too. I think it feeds into handlers' narcissism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I personally find the "heads up" look of obedience heeling terrible. It makes my neck feel sore just looking at it. Me three with not liking the look. Also I hate it in function. I don't mind my 'neutral head, but walk with shoulder against the seam of my jeans, sit when I stop and turn cleanly heeling. When I said I hated heeling because it made me claustrophobic and like I was going to step on the dog? It's invariably because of that cranked up and around head and high prancing front end. Close to me, by my left side (or, with another cue, right)? That has a function in daily life and I use it. That other thing gives me no benefit and makes me tense and uncomfortable when walking with my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobedvm Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Well, I don't use heeling in daily life, this is purely a highly cultivated behavior that has lost any function in normal life (as is anything tested in an obedience trial today, isn't it?). Heeling style (in a formal heel, not loose leash walking type as discussed above) does all become about personal preference, doesn't it? No one else has to like my dogs heeling style but me, so I guess it truly is narcissistic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I don't see how it's narcissistic if it is the dog's chosen head carriage.Please . . . explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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