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You all gave mudthirsty such good advice, so I'm begging for help too. Jake is a 4mo. old BC. He is wonderful, except for the whole potty training thing. I do not free feed him. I have limited his water intake, I have constricted him to one area with gates- unless I am sitting and watching him play with my other dog, I only take him out on a leash and always to the same area, I am crate training him, I only use the Nature's Miracle cleaner to clean his accidents, and I am totally frustrated! I tried treats after he went and stopped that-he would go a tiny bit and stop expecting a treat-now I praise him. He definately knows that he did good when he goes outside, so why is he still going in the house? This is the first pup I have ever housebroken, I figured it wouldn't be this difficult since I potty trained two kids...obviously I was wrong! I've read books about this, asked at the pet store, and now I'm ready to pull my hair out of my head, any advice?

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Hopefully we can help you and Jake too.

 

How long have you had him? How long have you been gating him off - doing the leash outside to potty - using Nature's Miracle thing?

 

How often does he have accidents? Poop or pee? Is there a pattern, like at certain times or after certain activities? Is it when he's gated, or when he's playing, or on the way out the door to go potty, or right after eating, or...?? Do you take him out often enough? Are you sure?

 

Any chance of a urinary tract infection?

 

What are the consequences for his accidents (type of punishment)?

 

Is he an extremely submissive dog? If so, any chance it's submissive peeing? If you don't know what that is then do a google search for "submissive urination".

 

I can't think of any other questions right now but someone else might, and that will help us narrow down what the problem is.

 

Keep up with the crate training. It will help alot, but it's just a part of the whole potty training process.

 

Welcome to the boards too!

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My pup was no where NEAR being potty trained at 4 months old. Some folks, it takes in a day or week. Others, there are growth issues, health problems, stress, etc.

 

We never had a #2 in the house from the pup. But we had PLENTY of pee-accidents. But again, I'd say 95% of these were health related. The other 5% were:

 

-Puppy is playing, playing and forgets she has to pee and then WHOOPS! it just happens.

 

-Puppy asks to go out but I'm .001 seconds too late getting to the door and WHOOPS! it just happens. (right at the door!)

 

-Puppy asks to go out and I don't hear her. (That happened a lot so we went back to putting her in her x-pen while we were home.)

 

-Puppy asks to go out, goes out, gets distracted by....oooohhh...a bee!!!...forgets to pee. I forget to make sure she pees and she comes back inside and pees.

 

While we had cases of pure defiance (I'm on the couch! haha! Catch me!) we never had a case where she messed the house in that way. She did it, she would come running to us with a look of "oh no!!!! oh no oh no!!!" and curl into a little ball at our feet. She can't lie.

 

So don't get discouraged. True, there are those lucky folks out there that had a potty trained dog in a week or less. But it will happen, just stick with it and make sure you find a place where you can keep him (crate or x-pen) where he won't go. And then it is up to you to take him out every few hours on leash, so that he can learn what's expected of him.

 

We were not able to let our pup have the run of the house while we were home until she was about 9 months old. Again, she had health problems, late developing kidney and constant UTI's, so that made life much more difficult. And I'll remind you to make sure your pup is healthy before you restrict water. If your pup has problems concentrating urine or kidney issues, lack of water could do much more harm to him in the long run. Please check with your vet - before you make these decisions. We learned that from our pup.

 

Good luck,

 

Denise

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Some dogs just take longer to figure things out. 4 months has been typical for my pups to "get it" as far as the basics of housebreaking (though my Lhasa was over a year before he seemed to see why he should be bothered to go outside). However, they are not fully trained at that age. The learning and reinforcing of good behaviors continues.

 

When a puppy is still figuring things out, I take him outside every hour pretty much, unless he is sleeping or crated. No kidding. And sometimes more if he's been playing hard or just ate or just got up from a nap, etc. And even after the puppy seems to get it and is doing well holding it, I take him out a lot. Maybe not on the hour but maybe yes, again depending on activity level and what he's currently doing. If my 6 month old is lying on the floor, quietly gnawing on a toy, I leave him be, but when he gets up and starts moving around I often let him run out to pee. He will whine at me if he needs to go out, which I appreciate and anytime he does that even if it's 10 minutes after he came in, I'll take him out.

 

Housebreaking takes repetition, consistency, and time. Dogs have different timetables for learning. Personally, I sometimes feel like it's a miracle that anyone -- dog or human -- gets potty trained at all. But if you hang in there and use good management, it will get accomplished. He's still very young. It probably feels like forever, but really it isn't uncommon for a pup that age to be vague on the concept. If he seems to have no control or is peeing all the time, you may want to check to make sure he doesn't have an infection (this was the case with one of my puppies). But my guess is he's still learning.

 

When you say you restrict him to one area, are you with him or is he on his own somewhat? If he is loose, let's say in the kitchen, but you aren't there to keep an eye on him, then that may be too big an area to be effective in helping him learn to hold it. That's where crate training is so helpful because most dogs do not want to soil where they sleep. But if they soil over in the corner of the room, while they can sleep, play, eat, etc. over on the other side of the room, they're ok with it. So sometimes we need to make sure that we aren't giving the puppy to much room which can make things confusing for him about where he needs to eliminate. Also, at 4 months there isn't much time between realizing they need to go and needing to go right that very second. So if the pup is by himself, he may be giving a sign that he needs to go out, but since no one is there to see and immediately take him out, he ends up having an "accident."

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I won't say too much of what others have already said. But I do agree with it all.

 

Those of us who trained their pups in a day/week don't wait for the pup to ask, instead take them out EVERY hour or two until they are older and can start to warn you before it happens. They just get so surprised at that age and by the time they know they have to go, it is to late. It will be awhile until the pup can warn you in good time that they need to go outside.

 

Until then, keep your shoes and coat on and leash in hand at all times! :rolleyes:

 

oh, and Welcome to the boards!

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Thank you for all of your responses. First I did check with the vet and he checked him just for peice of mind. He does not have any medical reasons to go potty so much. We have had Jake for 2 months. There is no consistant time when he has accidents. We could be sitting in the kitchen with him 10 minutes after he just went outside and if he has to go again he just squats and goes. We went to a potty training class yesterday and it seems like we have been doing everything right. Last night we had him tethered to a very small area, right in front of us and he all of a sudden just squated and started pooping! Right on his toys! Of course I jumped up and said, no potty outside and undid his leash and he ran to the door, when we went out he finished. We have been using nature's miracle for 2wks. I don't really have a consequence for accidents, but if I feel that he is not done I crate him for a few, then I take him out, and he usually goes. He is basically having 1 or 2 accidents a day, other than that he is going outside. But he doesn't tell us. I started training him yesterday to speak on command so I can train him to speak when he needs to go out. But what do I do in the meantime?

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Are you sure he isn't giving you some kind of signal he's about to go? Like sniffing the ground? Or pacing a bit? You will still need to watch him when he's tethered to you or he will go when he needs to. I had to learn their signals before I could teach them anything new. And it varies for each dog. Pepper was a sniffing thing, she would begin to sniff the ground and it wasn't long, maybe 4-5 seconds after that, when she would begin to pee. I had to be that quick to ask her, "do you need to go out?". She would then look at me and we'd go out. But I found I had to read them first before we could come up with a solution that worked for both of us. If I could use the familiar "need to go out" BEFORE they had an accident, they learned to come to me first because I caught them AS THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT IT. Not as they were doing it.

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If the dog will not go in the crate - keep him in the crate ALL THE TIME. Until you can watch him 100%. He has already learned that going in the house is ok. Now you have to un-learn him!

 

Don't think of the crate as punishment. It's not if used correctly. It should be his den, where he gets food, rest, water, etc. If he starts to make noise - take him to potty. ON LEASH. If he doesn't potty, back in the crate. Take him out every hour or so. When you can, and ONLY when you have nothing else to do - take him out of the crate and play with him. Keep him on a leash so that you can get him if she starts to squat or sniff. After you play - take him right out to potty using that key word. Then back in the crate.

 

He has developed a sense that it's ok to go in the house. He may even prefer the surface. Now you need to start over and you must be 100% diligent in your rules.

 

Good luck,

 

Denise

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I do use the crate a lot, but if I put him in too much he won't go to sleep at night and he will keep my husband and I up all night. That is another issue. I really think tashakota is onto something. I figured out he does circles for poop, and if I don't see him I understand that it is my fault. But for the life of me I don't see any pee signals. Should I be very concerned if he is having accidents 1-2 times a day? Am I being overly concerned? Will he catch on eventually and stop having these accidents? And on another subject--Jake is EXTREMELY aggressive to my other dog. So we are trying to deal with these 2 issues at the same time. He did do much better yesterday when I had the whole day to devote to my dogs because I didn't work, he was much calmer, and he slept through the night! But he still had 1 small accident of pee...someday I will be happy to post we got through a whole day!

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I think it sounds like your pup needs more exercise (both mental and physical) and more leadership on your part.

 

If you do crate him a lot, but he keeps you up at night, have you tried taking him on a nice long walk before bed? How about playing fetch right before his last time outside to go potty (pups need to go out after playing so this might help the housetraining and the energy level).

 

How much exercise a day does Jake get? What type (play in the yard, fetch, walks, with other dogs, etc.)? How much training?

 

Is Jake on a Nothing in Life is Free program where he is asked to 'work' for food, toys, petting, and anything else he enjoys by performing simple commands (i.e. sit, down, come, etc.)? If not I would highly recommend it. A search for NILIF on the "general" board should get you some more info on the program.

 

What do you mean by being 'aggressive' with other dogs? Often puppies play rough w/ adults and when they start adolescence, the adults start correcting their unruly behavior. Has he had much chance to interact w/ dogs other than your own? This might be advisable if you can find a stable dog that is willing to discipline a pup appropriately - some dogs just put up with it, so it won't show him he's being rude.

 

I actually "rent" my BC out to puppy owners - my friend had a 7 mo hound mix that loved playfully beating up other dogs and wouldn't stop even if the other dog tried to get away, so Maggie got to work with him; after a few "How dare you touch me you little worm" (snarly, slight chase, some body blocking) reactions from my girl, he started to play appropriately. Now they are best friends and he will read her signals accurately and respect them.

 

HTH

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With Kota, when he was a pup, he came mostly housetrained but if I was in another room, he'd walk away into the room where the door is. If I didn't call to him, he'd pee in that room. So if he walked away, I'd call to him, he'd look at me and we'd go out. He was about 5 months old. Tasha, she was mostly housetrained but she seemed easier, I knew more. :rolleyes: She would kind of stop what she was doing. Whether chewing a toy, or playing, she would stop and I'd ask her, "do you need to go out"? She would look at me and out we'd go. I took her out A LOT! he he... but it seemed to do the trick. If I couldn't watch her, in her crate she'd go. Even if we were watching TV, I'd keep her in front of me where I could half watch her. Once movement stopped (movement being playing, chewing, etc) I'd ask that question.

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I do know that Jake needs a lot of exercise, he is much better when we walk and train a lot. Yesterday I went with him and my other dog to the doggie park, where it is fenced in and he did wonderfully playing with the other dogs. There quit a few comments from other dog owners how "the little one" really stands up to the other dogs. I have started a new rule in my house that the kids have to take him for a 15min walk before they go to bed every night. We started it last night, so we'll see if it works.

 

Jake plays a lot with my other dog while I am watching, and he loves being tied up outside, but he sits on the porch there and I still watch him. We go for walks in the mornings that I can, my schedule doesn't always permit it. He and my other dog walk wonderfully! I really enjoy it since we live in a very scenic area.

 

The times that Jake is aggressive to Max, my other dog, is when food is involved. I have to tether him to the kitchen table when Max is going to eat, if I don't he attacks Max like a rabid animal, and poor Max backs down and yelps. Any treats, same thing. And, he hords all the toys, even if he doesn't want to play with them.

 

I know a lot of these issues are probably me needing to be trained, but I want to learn now what to do before these behavoirs stick...

thanx.

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I highly recommend NILIF now that I hear about how he reacts to your other dog - this is a puppy that is basically screaming for a leader; if you don't take this role he might, and little tyrants are no fun for all involved. :rolleyes:

 

I'm glad it sounds like he's getting more exercise - that should help some for sure and its good for people and dogs alike. Congrats on the walking well on leash part too - that's one of the toughest skills for pups to master I have to say.

 

How much training time does he get btw? What does that involve? Sometimes brainwork will tire a pup out way faster than physical exercise alone.

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Can you enrol in a puppy class? Something where you have the "ear" of a trainer? You need to get on all of these issues (they are all connected I'm sure) ASAP or you could have your hands full 100 times worse than you do now.

 

Mental stimulation in the form of training = #1.

#2 - NILIF and you AND the entire family MUST stick to this.

#3 - Exercise - and not just the sort the is dull and self rewarding. Make that dog work with you and FOR you. That will help establish some laws.

#4 - routine. Routine for potty, routine for training, routine for fun walks. Dogs thrive on routine. Daily walks are not only good for the dog, but good for the owners too!

 

Good luck and stick with it.

 

D

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I'm going to look at the home page to see if I can find what you are referring to as NILIF, I don't know what that is. Basically I think of our day as 2 seperate periods. Mostly because I am home by myself during the day, then he is in his crate while I work, then the kids and the hubby come home and we start "family" time. He seems to do much better when it's just me...but if he is going to be part of this family he needs to get used to the commotion. I am going to look up the NILIF right now. Thanx.

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Well, as I said in another post, doggie door! I wouldn't know what to do with out it. Jackson had a hard time when we tried to break him. Until we showed him to use the doggie door. I swear, he never had another accident after that. And if I am in town, I don't have to worry if I take too long that his poor bladder is about to explode! And yes, leaving him the run of the house was a problem for a while. We would come home never knowing what he would distroy! But when he did I would just carry on something terrible, and would with hold all affection from him. When I came home after only 30 min once and he had not distroyed anything,(no time he he) I just lavished attention and threw his ball for about 30 min. And now, no matter how long, 3 days once, I am gone, I come home to two happy dogs and a relieved old cat! And my house in one piece!

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I'm a big fan of dog doors too and both my shelties were quite reliable in the house at 4 months of age due to using it. The downside I found was it was harder for the dog to learn how to hold it for long periods of time since generally they could go whenever they felt like it.

 

I didn't allow them full access to the house but instead kept them contained in the kitchen where they could do minimal damage. As it turns out, I use the door hardly at all any more because one of the shelties became a nuisance barker and someone shot paintballs at her (fortunately they missed). I tried hard to curtail her barking, but it was too self-reinforcing to overcome except when I am home (she's hugely improved under those circumstances). With the paintballs, I realized that not only was she annoying people (I already knew that) but she was at risk by being out for long periods of time unsupervised. So another downside is dogs who can be out by themselves can get into trouble and develop habits you don't want.

 

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

And yes, leaving him the run of the house was a problem for a while. We would come home never knowing what he would distroy! But when he did I would just carry on something terrible, and would with hold all affection from him. When I came home after only 30 min once and he had not distroyed anything,(no time he he) I just lavished attention and threw his ball for about 30 min. And now, no matter how long, 3 days once, I am gone, I come home to two happy dogs and a relieved old cat! And my house in one piece!

I do have to disagree very much with this approach. Not only would I hate wondering what my dog was destroying if he was left loose at too young an age, I'd worry about him getting sick or injured that way (eating things he shouldn't, for example). I also do not believe that dogs understand why we are angry and ignoring them for something they did hours or even minutes after the fact. They know we are angry, yes, but I really don't think most of them can figure out why. I strongly feel that dogs slinking off and acting guilty is either a reaction to our behavior or in anticipation that we will be angry ("When she first comes home, she yells and acts mad at me. I better act submissive."). I think most dogs grow out of their destructiveness whether we contain them somehow to prevent it or punish them for what they do when they are not contained. But I don't think it is the delayed punishment that stops the destructiveness.

 

I'm not sure if you're saying you left your dogs for 3 days at home because you had the dog door. Someone must have been checking in to see the animals were alright and had what they needed for that lenght of time, right?

 

Liz

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