Housetraining

[simba]

Have a small older dog who's always had some issues with housetraining but it's been getting worse recently. A culmination came this morning when I came out of the shower to find that she had wandered into the room, done a shit on my clean clothes, and wandered out again. I have no crate (I had one but someone else lost the door of it and I haven't the money to get another), I have no way of blocking off the areas where she likes to 'go'. I have a small room to put her in that she also toilets in, though less often when she's confined in there.

 

She will decide to 'go' on anything that's put on the floor- rugs, carpet, books, anything like that. The areas where she's 'gone' get cleaned with disinfectant and enzymatic cleaner, or washed.

 

She gets brought outside regularly. The other dog runs straight for her regular toileting areas.

 

This dog will look up at you and wait for you to tell her to do something. Or she will shit in the doorway on the way out, pausing to do so before coming out to you. Or go back inside and shit. Sometimes, sometimes she will 'go potty' outside if you wander around the garden with her off-lead, and then I praise and treat. Sometimes we have been out there for six hours without any doing. She reacts to the dark, she wants to run around and bark in it, so if she is brought outside at night she will spend so much time looking around her that she won't toilet then.

 

If she is on a lead when brought outside she will simply sit or walk beside you and wait for some kind of command or something interesting to happen, or a walk to happen. I've been trying to mark the behaviour with a word, but she seems to be taking ages to 'get' it, and it's actually distracting her because she will sniff, or scratch the ground, and then look up at me to see if I'm praising her for it.

 

On walks she's fine, because there are no 'off limits' areas. Part of the trouble is that she can't manage the lengths of walks she used to and so is doing less of her eliminating there, away from the house. Edit: plus, as she gets older, she gets less inclined to go outside in the dark and the cold and the rain with her arthritic hips. She may also be having trouble sensing in advance when she needs to go. I mean, both of these are fair enough, but she also does not seem to understand, suddenly. It's like she was housetrained before but had got into a routine/done certain behaviours rather than understanding what was expected. Now she's changed her routine.

 

It is just so infuriating. I spend a lot more time and effort with her trying to get her to do this, the other dog just 'gets it'. She's very good at picking up things to do in other areas, she's excellent at going out in public, being obedient under distraction etc. But I can't seem to find a way to explain to her what I want in this scenario. It's like she literally does not get the concept.

[Cass C]

How old is this dog?

[simba]

She's pushing 14.

 

She's always been a bit like that, I mean you always had to watch her to check she went outside particularly when it was cold or wet or anything like that. I don't think it's dementia, she's about the same behaviour-wise as she ever was in other respects, though a bit calmer.

 

My suspicion is that it's more that changing circumstances and a new habit have revealed holes in her understanding of housetraining which were probably there all along- but because she got the long walks, was happy to go outside in the cold, could tell in advance when she needed to go etc. she went outside and got into the habit of that.

[Maralynn]

It could be something like canine cognitive dysfunction.

[Shetlander]

Agree it could be a cognitive issue. There could also be a physical/medical cause or some combination thereof. Maybe you should discuss with your vet.

[GentleLake]

I understand the frustration of a dog who's not completely house trained, but given your dog's age I think you're being unfair to her.

 

Just like older people, older dogs can start having difficulty controlling their bodily functions. The urge to go often sneaks up on them unexpectedly and they may not have the muscle control to make it to where they need to go before losing control. If she'd previously had difficulty with the concept (some small breeds are notoriously difficult to house train) even a slight decline in cognitive or muscular function will make it worse.

 

My old gal's having trouble, too. I've talked to a couple vets about it and they agree that it's not something under her control. One even commented that some old dogs just seem to get things backwards when it comes to eliminating. Tilly will sometimes go outside and do nothing, only to come in and pee or poop. She's old. It's not her fault.

 

So you can choose to be infuriated (your word) with your dog for something she probably can't help. I've chosen instead to do what I can to limit Tilly's accidents or the places they happen and remind myself when I'm cleaning them up just how happy I am to have her with me for another day.

[Shetlander]

Just like older people, older dogs can start having difficulty controlling their bodily functions. The urge to go often sneaks up on them unexpectedly and they may not have the muscle control to make it to where they need to go before losing control. If she'd previously had difficulty with the concept (some small breeds are notoriously difficult to house train) even a slight decline in cognitive or muscular cognitive function will make it worse.

 

Great post. My old dogs who were perfectly house trained sometimes pooped inside, even if we had recently been outside. My Sheltie was increasingly held together by brittle rubber bands the last couple years of her life with arthritis and a variety of other ailments. When I discovered a pile in the house, she always seemed to have the attitude of "What do you expect? I'm 108." LOL. I sure miss that girlie.

[simba]

Thank you everyone, I will try and be less angry about it. I suppose it's also that I posted after I was particularly annoyed, it's not how it is usually.

 

I suppose in a weird way it's harder to take her age into account because she doesn't seem old. I mean, she came to a barbecue today, she went her first train trip on Monday, she comes along to markets and shops and dog shows, and hikes up mountains, and goes on trams, and all kinds of things without ever flagging or seeming 'tired' or 'old'. The occasional tantrum over a cat maybe, but that's it.

 

She really does seem to just have gotten the wrong idea somehow, in addition to the problems caused by age. I mean, she can hold it well in situations where she thinks she needs to- you'd have no fear of her in the car, for example, even on long journeys.

 

She has seemed to improve with putting it on command, at least somewhat- she gets less worried about what I want her to do since she knows that I also want her to go potty. It could be me succumbing to intermittent reinforcement, of course, since I've not been recording my observations systematically. Is there any other way I can explain to her what I want?

[Shetlander]

This isn't so much telling her what you want but maybe look at how to make it harder for her to eliminate inside. That may be tethering her to your side, hating in such a way to keep her right by yoh or when that isn't practical (taking a shower), then have a spot and bed where she can be kept that is easy to clean/launder. Were your clean clothes on the bed or something? Unless they were on the floor, it seems odd that she pooped on them and that would make me wonder about a cognitive issue.

[simba]

The clothes were on the floor.

I wonder if it's partly related to the recallers course we started recently- so back garden time is also potential training time, including at night. But then she never does eliminate at night anyway, outside at least.

[Gloria Atwater]

At her age, I also think it's just her slipping a bit. It does sound like a cognitive problem and if she's always been a little difficult to manage, it may be more so now that she's aging. Tethering her may be a partial solution for things like when you have to take a shower.

Can we perhaps pitch in to help you get a new crate? We all know how it is to have a tight budget.

~ Gloria

[aschlemm]

The vet I worked for had a Jack Russell cross that lived to be 18 years old (some of those terriers do seem to live forever.) Some things she did for him were: having a small x-pen in the yard for him to potty in, she wasn't quick to clean stools up so that he had evidence of what he was there for. When indoors he had a small crate with a comfy fleece in it. She had multiple fleeces so that if one got messed on it wasn't a big deal. If loose in the house he was baby-gated in a small room on linoleum. My cousin has had Chihuahuas that have lived to be ancient and in later years she has a small room to baby gate them into and then she puts puppy pads down (the ones with pheromones to encourage them to go there.) You could check out yard sales to see if you could pick up a crate and baby gates cheaply or (my favorite thing) Goodwill or Ollies (Good Stuff Cheap!) I'm not sure where you live but hopefully you have something comparable. I know it feels mean to confine a dog that has always had the roam of the house and yard but when they are getting older and confused I think having a small space and trying to keep a set schedule is comforting to them plus it makes clean-up easier. Perhaps the small size of an outside x-pen will also give her more confidence at night. Her night vision is probably becoming diminished and she is frightened by what she can no longer see.

[simba]

I hate the idea of pee pads for adult dogs but if it would keep her from peeing on the part of the floor that's damaged...

 

Just to confirm- this is not an "I am not the leader" thing right?

[aschlemm]

At almost 14 years of age I would really doubt it's a statement of defiance. You didn't say what breed but at almost 14 it could be comparable to a person who is in a nursing home, in their 80's, wearing diapers. Maybe just putting her in an x-pen outside, giving her more frequent potty breaks and praising her and giving a treat for going to the bathroom outside and then having her somewhat confined (to one room or area) in the house would work and you wouldn't need to use pee pads. Good Luck. Try to enjoy her senior years, they don't last forever and a lot of dogs don't make it that far.

[simba]

To clarify, I have a friend who insists this. Along with some other odd advice. So I come on here just to confirm "Hey, I'm not crazy, this is totally not the answer, it's not just me?"

 

She's doing all the things, she loves getting out and about so I'm making a bigger effort to bring her out to different places and get her mad foods and generally try and keep the quality of life up. Every year I think she can't possibly be better than the year before and then she is. She's a small-breed terrier so at least she's not that 'old'? It's not like, say, a bulldog or great dane at that age.

[juliepoudrier]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of pee pads, but for the last year of Kat's life, they were lifesavers. That and an X-pen. I actually bought the washable whelping/pee pads. She was kept in an Xpen in the house (on a large whelping pad that covered to entire floor of the Xpen with some overlap) when I was at work. She would no longer tolerate being crated, but mostly didn't mind the Xpen. In good weather I had access to an outdoor kennel (under a building so she wasn't exposed to any weather). When I was there, I just kept washable pee pads on the places she most often slept. I would even set the alarm to get up in the middle of the night to take her out. Yes, it was frustrating and I was sleep deprived and I felt bad for her because she couldn't help herself. Often she would wake up having already had an accident or clearly unable to get to the door in time (assuming I would have heard her get up anyway). Sometimes poop just happened (Willow also had this problem some nights; she'd wake up and poop would just be there).

 

Like Roxanne, I just reminded myself that I should be grateful for every day I had with her. Even when I'd come home to find that she had pooped and then paced in it, getting it on the walls, the wardrobe next to her pen, etc. Fortunately I live on a farm with a boarding operation and the one woman who takes care of the boarders loved Kat dearly and took it upon herself to get Kat out every day to help mitigate clean up when I got home from work.

 

Anyway, I lost Kat in June. I no longer have to clean, or get up in the middle of the night, or work my schedule around the fact that she could no longer really travel without a great deal of stress. I'm sure you know where this is going. I still miss her terribly and would put up with all those accidents and inconveniences to have her back.

 

But I'm not trying to make you feel bad. There were plenty of times when I was really aggravated, frustrated, wanted to scream, got extremely tired of doing laundry every freakin' day, the constant pee smell as dirty laundry accumulated in the laundry basket. And if you're looking for confirmation that this is something that happens with old dogs, it is.

 

That said, 14 is not as ancient for a small dog as it is for a border collie. I don't know many border colles who live past 15, but small dogs can certainly go to 18, at least IME. Still I think the combination of being an older dog and one who may not have been perfectly housetrained in the first place is what's causing the problem now.

 

If you can find an inexpensive Xpen, it could help save your sanity. Check out Craig's List and eBay, where you can often find really good deals. If she's not a jumper or climber then you can get by with the really short ones, which are cheaper (my good friend had to keep her papillon contained in just such a pen for the last year or so of his life; I think he was 18 when he died). Consider washable pee pads. They are a bit more expensive up front, but they more than pay for themselves compared to the disposables (unless you have no easy means of washing them). I found that the surface, especially of the whelping pads, stayed remarkably dry despite being peed on, so I didn't have to worry about Kat's comfort if she had an accident while I was gone. I bought mine off Amazon. And as others have said, little or no freedom in the house. And don't put anything on the floor that you don't want the dog to poop on (which won't happen if she's contained anyway).

 

I'd probably also stop any distractions while outside. If you think she's confused about why she's outside, I think I'd go back to making going out in the yard a time for ONE THING ONLY. Once she's more consistent about doing her business outside, then you can add the other training back in.

 

Just my two cents.

 

J.

[GentleLake]

Julie, I'm so sorry to hear you lost Kat. I lost Tilly last week.

 

Our worlds will be a little smaller without them . . .

 

My sympathies to you.

 

roxanne

[simba]

I'm very sorry for your loss, both of you, Gentlelake and Juliepoudrier.

[gcv-border]

So Sorry to hear about Kat and Tilly. I was rooting for these senior wonders.

[simba]

Well, the other two dogs have started to copy her, all of them have decided that if you can't hold it, you can pee on the floor. Today I found my bag on the floor with the food taken out of it and my bag and shoes pissed on. Bastards.

[Tommy Coyote]

I am not a dog trainer. Fortunately I have really good dogs that manage to just pick up on stuff themselves. And they really do pretty well.

 

Zeke was an outside dog for 3 years before I got him. I think he peed in the house 2 times and then got on to going outside. He is the best of my dogs.

 

Joe does really pretty well, too. He rarely - actually I can't remember the last time - pees in the house. He will run in and poop on the papers.

 

Tommy (the girl) is paper trained. I have to take her out especially to pee before we go to bed. Then they wake me up about midnite to all go out again. And then they get up at 4 because I have to get up early. So 4 to 5 hours is about their max. And Tommy will just run in and use the papers if she has to go any other time. She has never learned to "hold" it. I had her checked for UTI and she is fine. All her blood work is perfect. (I can't use pee pads because Zeke eats them).

 

I have customers with dogs that routinely go 12-14 hours a day before they are let out when their owners get home from work. I don't like that and I don't think it's good for the dogs but I don't think it's all that uncommon. I wonder sometimes if making a dog hold it that long day after day doesn't eventually cause kidney damage.

 

My dogs can't do that.

[CptJack]

I don't *make* my dogs hold it that long, but to a one every last one can and will. Usually that's their choice - ie: they'd rather hold it than stay out in wet weather and get rained on - and I've also had the odd emergency that meant I wans't home for 12-14 hours and, yes, they held it rather than going in the house.

 

I work from home. When I'm home, the dogs have unfettered access to the back yard - don't even have to ask. It's RARE that, once adults, they go out to the bathroom from between 8 a.m and about 5 p.m. The dog door is closed and locked overnight and unless someone is sick, they NEVER wake us up to take them out. That's at least 8 hours, more often 9.

 

SO, basically they go out at 7:30, 5:30, and once again before bed at about 10:30-11? There might be another trip about 9 p.m if they've had a lot to drink, but rarely. They're out more than that, but even out running, playing, and exercising or in classes that seems to be their potty schedule. They're certainly not dehydrated and have access to water all day, every day, too. Their blood work is also beautiful, and I've never had a dog with a UTI

 

This is the schedule nearly every dog I've ever had has kept, more or less, once an adult and in possession of bladder control.

 

 

Would I want them going 12-14 hours during the day without a break frequently? No. I think it's kind of mean and that's a long time to hold it. In general though, an adult dog who needed out every four hours and was waking me up to go out in the middle of the night would drive me up a WALL. I can not imagine putting paper down for any healthy adult dog as a viable option to going outside. Health issues and emergency situation s, seniors and babies, fine, but as a regular thing? OH HECK NO.

 

 

I sort of wonder if this is another situation where we get what we unconsciously train for.

 

(In response to TOmmy - not the OP. Senior dogs just do that sometimes and it's sad and frustrating but not really IMO a housebreaking issue - juts one of physical and mental limitations)

[Tommy Coyote]

There is a little more to the story. I have no set schedule. Most mornings I leave by 4:30 and I'm in and out all day long - sometimes coming in for the last time about 9 at night. And I'm always up during the night so the dogs get up with me. I almost always let them out if I'm out.

 

Tommy got paper trained because she had auto immune disease and was on heavy pred for several months. She could not wait for me to get home.

 

Really, they do pretty well. It's not like they are peeing in the house all the time. Just once in a while.

 

I'm not a good housebreaker and I am the 1st to admit it. The boys do really well. After Tommy was so sick I have gotten paranoid about her health. I'm just so afraid that all those drugs have harmed her in ways that may not show up for a while. I'm sure I let her get away with murder. But I don't care. I'm just happy to have her with me and if she wakes me up to go out I'm happy to get up with her. Besides I don't sleep well at night so it doesn't make any difference.

[simba]

In a house full of clean, bare, washable floors why would the little monster (young dog, now, not the older dog who this thread was initially about) choose to climb onto a pile of books to pee?

 

It wasn't even a hardcover with a dust jacket. The book was hardback, clothbound, a present a friend gave me when I was small. She had to CLIMB to get to it, onto a low table. What the hell?

 

I chased her around the house making incoherent angry noises and flailing my trousers at her (I was just coming out of the shower when I caught her just coming away from the pile). All 'pure positive' intentions of earlier this week went out the window as I threw my socks and towel at her. Of course she had no idea why the angry naked person was chasing her.

 

And the book is just not fixable. Fucking family heirloom stuff and it's now got permanent dog-pee stains on both sides of the cover. Little bitch.

 

Tearing up a duvet I can handle, that's just a dog being a bit of a tit. But this 'pissing on books' business is serious.

 

She went out an hour ago!

[Tommy Coyote]

Someone here might know how to get the smell out. Or call the library and see if you can talk to one of the people there that fixes the books. There may be a way to salvage it.

 

Sometimes really old things have kind of a musty smell. There must have been something that attracted her. I had trouble with Tommy for quite a while when she would eat library books. I think it was the paste. She has stopped that but I still keep all books up on the table. Zeke munched a paperback library book not too long ago. First time he has ever bothered one. I have to keep everything up or Zeke will get into it. No reason except that it's something new and sitting on the floor.