Excited barking - agility related ?

[Zoe]

Before I got Dylan I got a book about BCs and it had a list of DON'Ts which all made sense to me - don't let your dog initiate a play session, don't let your dog chase anything other than an article that can be controlled by you etc, etc. But one thing was "don't let your dog bark in anticipation of a game", and at the moment I am reading a book about agility training and it says that barking is an unwanted behaviour. Dylan has never barked in anticipation of the ball games and other games that we have always played. But recently I have started him on a teeter board - at first flat, and now with a tennis ball underneath. I try to make it fun and I run in all directions around the board and he leaps all over it - he LOVES it. He'll sit on it, lie down on it, do anything on it. But he gets excited and barks ! I can imagine him barking his way around a whole agility course ! Actually, a while ago I tried teaching him left and right. Every time I gave him a command he would bark an answer- as if to say "I got it Mum !" I stopped that training because I realized I didn't actually know enough about agility. There are no puppy classes here. I decided not to teach him any specific behaviours, but stuff that may be useful in doing agility in the future. So far I have taught him to target with his nose, to hit with his front paws, to come to my left and right sides and to play on the teeter board. And he is very good at basic obedience things.He also knows jump, go through, go round and a lot more. I want to start him on a very low teeter plank next, but don't want to reinforce his barking. When he does bark, I say uh-uh and I stop the activity - I just walk away. I haven't explicitly told him off.But to be honest, I don't know why it is an unwanted behaviour !! It is unwanted for me right now because the neighbours might not be happy about it, but does it actually signal that something is wrong with Dylan's attitude or that something is awry in the balance of our relationship ? That would be my concern. He is my first dog and I have too much to learn ! I did go and observe an agility competition and there were very vocal dogs and completely silent ones. And I also searched old posts and there was a mention about barking and slow times ... I don't think that would be a good enough reason for me to worry about his barking though. His having fun would be my main concern. Any advice would be really welcome. Thank you in advance. BTW, I plan on taking him to real classes very soon.

[Rave]

Don't worry about barking. Not sure which book you're reading? The only time barking is a problem in agility is if the dog gets in a barking fit and can't hear/doesn't listen to you. Most dogs WILL bark on course to offer "feedback" to the handler, i.e. "you're late again, tell me where to go next!" You want the dog excited and having fun. By correcting the barking, the dog most likely thinks you're correcting his actions, i.e. running happily over teeter.

 

The only other negative thing I can think of about barking is while crated at a trial. Agility people tend to get upset if there's a dog nearby barking constantly while crated.

 

It's perfectly acceptable for dogs to bark on course, while warming up, while playing with you, etc... My girls bark a lot.

 

I recently read an article about agility in Japan. The author (head of USDAA) was very impressed with the camaraderie and support Japanese agility competitors offered each other. To quote him, "In Japan, sportsmanship stands out as much as their high level of competitiveness."

 

-Laura

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

I ditto Laura! My sheltie barks and the only time it's a problem is when he can't hear me. When I'm spot on with the next command he runs with less barking. We don't start on the teeter here. As an obstacle we leave it for teaching last. We use the A frame and the dogwalk first. The most important thing about teaching the teeter is to control the pivot point for the dog so it doesn't move too quickly and make the dog insecure to be on it provoking a jumping off or over response. Make sure that when you teach the teeter you have one hand on the collar of the dog and the other on the board so you can control the pivot. Make sure that you give lots of encouragement on the obstacle and praise at the end of it. If you want to create a much lower teeter to start with use the largest piece of PVC you can find at the hardware store and use it as a pivot. You might need a shorter board. I've never needed to do this but if you need remedial teeter training because Dillon is not happy with the movement of the board it may help you. If you are interested in backyard agility training you might consider training weavepoles. There is tons of info on the web on training with stick in the ground weave poles and many different methods of training to try. It's the most difficult obstacle to teach and takes a long time to teach but if you start that way you will be ahead of the game when you do get to class.

 

Enjoy,

Annette

[Rave]

I'd have to disagree. Start the teeter early, the earlier the better. Start with a "wobble board" (small piece of plywood with a small ball underneath) and teach the dog to get used to and learn to control the movement ON THEIR OWN (click/treat/praise for any foot interaction with the board, then for movement of the board with front feet, then back feet on, then running over). You NEVER want to teach any obstacle by "holding the dog's collar" for many reasons (mainly safety) - teach the dog to do it on it's own. You also don't want the dog to slow or stop at the pivot point...that teaches a sloooooooooow scaredy-cat teeter. Instead, teach your dog to be comfortable with the movement. So start with a small wobble board and progress up to a mini teeter as your dog gets comfortable with controlling the movement.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

REALLY Laura! That's wild. It's the exact opposite of everything I've ever been taught. Except the wobble board (but I started before the wobble board was well known as a tool) and not teaching a dog to stop at the pivot. Whose method is this? Do you know? I'd like to read up. I'm always interested in new theories. I've trained in Louisiana and Ohio but the only beginner/puppy classes I've taken were based on Flash Paws methods (in mid 1990's) (I also taught baby class for my club). I've taken Puppy class in Ohio with Medina Swarm (who used mostly the same methods) (they do the Great Outdoor Games for ESPN) and with the Boltons, who are long time British Agility Competitors and were founders for UK agility training. So perhaps my training methods are dated. I've taken advanced classes with lots of good trainers including world team members but as you know they don't usually do baby classes and seminars are open to intermediate and advanced dogs mostly.

 

Please pass on your resourses.

Thanks,

Annette

[airbear]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

The only time barking is a problem in agility is if the dog gets in a barking fit and can't hear/doesn't listen to you.

Wick agrees! She barks when she runs agility, and I don't mind one bit, so long as she's not barking AT me. I don't believe it slows her down at all, and my friends always know when we're running.

 

This is one of Wick's 'quieter' runs - but she's moving ahead nicely, even as she's barking: Wick - Elite Tunnelers. Hey, if she's doing 7+ yards per second, as she does in some of her runs, I don't care if she's barking, yodelling, or reciting poetry.

[Rave]

Most trainers nowadays teach their dogs to go to the end and ride it down. Stopping/slowing for pivot is an outdated method (like turning your shoulders to get a turn or doing the "weave pole dance" ). No idea who started it, but it's widely accepted and taught now. My last two dogs were started this way (starting back in 2002). In fact, once my current puppy learned the wobble board (or "Buja board" as it's sometimes referred) and *very low* baby teeter, she proceeded to a full size teeter (w/o my permission) and was unstressed by the whole event... just ran to the end, stopped/rode it down, then looked up at me when I didn't immediately click (I was too shocked) ... all at the age of 3 months (something I do NOT encourage!).

 

I was just working this past weekend with a training friend of mine and completely blew her mind by having her cue a jump with her outside arm to get a tighter turn. It completely went against everything she'd ever been taught, but alas worked beautifully. I'm still giving her a hard time about that. I really enjoy blowing people's minds.

 

-Laura

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Hi Laura,

 

I've always taught my dogs to run to the end of of the teeter- could never stop them from it anyway

 

Cuing a jump with an outside arm is actually an old trick but we used to call it a windmill. A very exaggerated outside arm movement. The newest thing I've learned for sharper turns is an inside arm "flip". Works very well for "threading" in and out of jumps.

 

I guess the reason we hold on to dogs when teaching new obstacles is to prevent them falling off and getting spooked the first times on. Especially for dogs that don't know where their back legs are.

 

Before baby teeters (or adjustable ones) were invented, we used to use pause tables to keep the board from going all the way down. Then someone came up with the idea of using 2 or 3 inch PVC with a board to simulate restricted movement. Cheap and works well too.

 

Annette

[Rave]

Nah, this is different than the outside arm people typically use, or the "travolta" style front cross cue, which was entertaining for it's short existence.

[3crazybcs]

LOL

 

Travolta style front cross cue (or should we can it a pre-cue?), I've never heard it refered to as that and it's such a great description of it.

 

Laura, can you explain more detail about cueing a jump with the outside arm? Cueing a cross after it or just to go on over it?

[Zoe]

Thanks everyone for replying.

 

Laura, thanks. I won't worry about his barking anymore ! He IS having fun and that is what I want. And I'm teaching the teeter like you describe earlier.I'm reading Jane Simmons-Moake's Excelling at Dog Agility Book 1, which I really like. It gives a lot of options for training methods and I also have Clean Runs special issue on teaching Contacts. I didn't plan on having him on-leash when introducing the teeter proper. He is on a board only at the moment and I will progress to a teeter plank over a pole ( very low ) to start and work up gradually. I feel going really slow is probably better than rushing it and having him be fearful. He is pretty fearless actually !

 

Kristi ! Thank you for the Wicker video. I LOVE it and Dylan wanted to have a peek too !! Do you have any more ??!!! You are so lucky to have that kind of indoor facility. I don't think there is anything like that here, although I'll have to check.

 

Annette - I plan to do weaves at home too, but still think he is a bit young ( just turned one )I am still undecided as to which approach to try. The FlashPaws method looks tempting according to the book I'm reading, but it may well be that author's preference.... And you have to start with 5-6 poles, so Dylan would still be too young I believe.

[airbear]

Originally posted by Zoe:

...Kristi ! Thank you for the Wicker video. I LOVE it and Dylan wanted to have a peek too !! Do you have any more ??!!! ...

Oh yes, Wick has lots of video. http://www.runwickrun.ca/video.htm You *may* want to turn down the volume (except for her music video) as the barking may set off all the dogs in your neighborhood. Enjoy!

[Rave]

Hey 3crazy's, it's actually described in the recent Handling issue of Clean Run, if you get that. I use it combined with turning into my dog to "pre-cue" a wrap or front cross if I'm close enough to the jump.

 

That's actually why I stopped getting Clean Run and Whole Dog Journal, there wasn't anything "new" to read about. I think these mag's do a great job of informing people who can't get out to trials to watch other handlers (or live in good-handling deprived areas) in the case of CR or read these great message boards on the 'net in the case of the WDJ.

 

-Laura

[3crazybcs]

I don't get CR anymore for the same reason. Not much new and if there was something I wanted to read I'd borrow one. I seem to luck out and be at trials where CR has donated copies so I get more than I miss but I don't have the handling issue. I'll find someone who does though and pick it up, sounds worthwhile.

[zenotri]

I think barking is a personal choice. Of my 3 dogs, 1 barks constantly throughout the whole course, 1 only when he is frustrated & 1 never.

 

And guess what? I trained them is that order, LOL.

 

I think you need to decide from the beginning whether it is acceptable to you or not. My dog that barks constantly drives me insane, it wasn't too bad in novice, but as we progressed & the courses got harder, I felt he & I needed all the concentration we could get.

 

I am just starting to run my pup now & decided right from the beginning that there'd be no barking. I ran 2 of them last night and was truly amazed at how irritating the barking is after running the one that doesn't bark.

 

I think it'd be almost impossible to stop my older boy from barking on course now, without him thinking I was correcting him for his agility performance. But it sure does get on my nerves and I know I'll never have an agility barker again.

 

Vickie

[INU]

Zoe, sounds like Dylan is a good candidate for disaster SAR dog if you are still planning on testing him in the future

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

The only other negative thing I can think of about barking is while crated at a trial. Agility people tend to get upset if there's a dog nearby barking constantly while crated.

 

It certainly drives ME crazy when I'm out, and no matter how I try, it gets ME wound and tense. So what would you (anyone) do to stop this? Crating out of sight of the action, covering the crate, ignoring, correcting, etc, methods don't work. And no, I can't "relax and accept it."

[Rave]

a quick bandaid fix if the barking is driving you batty in practice, either have the dog carry a toy through the course or put on a Gentle Leader. Granted, it'll only work in practice, but it may help your sanity.

[tessa_s212]

At our(my dog training club hosts dog shows A LOT) agility trials we don't mind at all. It shows the dog loves what it is doing and is having fun. (Sure, it can get just a bit annoying) That is what agility is about(I believe), having fun!

[Alaska]

Zoe wrote:

 

There are no puppy classes here. I decided not to teach him any specific behaviours, but stuff that may be useful in doing agility in the future.

 

You might find Greg Derrett's foundation training video useful. This is exactly what it covers, and I guarantee you that Greg will set some challenges that haven't ocurred to you yet. I also live in an area where there are no puppy (or adult) classes, and I have found that no amount of reading about agility equals a well-made demonstration video.

[Zoe]

Thanks again everyone - I am keeping up with this post and appreciate everyones comments, but am busy getting my driving license ( so I can take Dylan to agility and SAR classes ! ). In Japan you have to attend driving school for a minimum of about 60 hours before you can take your license test. It is crazy what with taking care of Dylan and my work etc, etc. And I have to work really hard as a non-native speaker, but I need to drive to get Dylan to places he needs to go ! Isn't it silly - I have always been a bit anti-car before I got him and at 37 don't have a driving license, but it has become a big priority right now ! I'll let everyone know once I pass !!!