Training for pet or future endeavors

[buckeyemanohio]

I have yet to own a Border Collie. I have read about these dogs for years now and have wanted one for so many years as well. I have always been so amazed and interested in the incredible intelligence this dog breed has. I have always wanted an extremely smart and obedient dog. It seems like the Border Collie is the best dog for me. I currently have a black lab that I trained from a puppy who is very smart and very obedient. I never had an issue training him to sit, come, stay, or crate. He was always a quick learner and a true lover to our whole family. He is 13 now so I feel it may be in the near future that we would get another dog most likely after my lab passes away (maybe before that but I'm not sure). I still want to get as much information and learn as much as I possibly can about Border Collies before finally getting one for our family.

 

First and foremost this dog must be a pet and love our entire family. I have 4 barn cats, one horse, a black lab, and a pomeranian. My daughters will be both gone to college so it will just be my wife and me. I do work full time and my wife will be working full time soon (I hope, she is still looking for a job!!). How do people own Border Collies and work? Should I not own a Border Collie because I work full time? I heard that they won't want to be in a crate all day. Should I just give up on my dream of owning a Border Collie because we work full time and won't be able to be with our dog? If that's the case i guess my dream will only come true when I retire in 20 years.

 

In the future I had this "wild dream" to own a "goose chasing business" where my border collie would chase the geese off people's properties such as golf courses, parks, large estates, condos, etc. In my field of work (horticulture) I visit houses all over the place and geese are every where destroying grass and leaving a mess every where. Any advice on this venture or is this just a "wild dream" as I have already stated?? What a great job that would be to be able to be with my dog every single hour of the day AND making money doing it!

 

ADVICE ON OWNING A BORDER COLLIE AND WORKING FULL TIME AND USING A BORDER COLLIE FOR A GOOSE BUSINESS

 

 

THANKS ALL!!!!!! This is my first post so please be gentle!

[CptJack]

Working full time shouldn't be a problem. They're adaptable dogs. Farms have down time and farmers aren't throwing a ball for the dog 16 hours a day (or moving sheep 12 months a year, 8 hours a day).

 

Cats may or may not be an issue depending on the dog. My BC loves my cats - but she also loves to chase my cats, and she's been around them her whole life. OTOH, she's not quite 9 months old and is starting to get it.

 

I know nothing about goose chasing.

BC are smart, yes. However they are not necessarily obedient. The two don't really... go hand in hand the way you'd think. They're definitely not point and shoot dogs. Someone here once called them handler mistake magnifiers. It's accurate. They are often biddable dogs who want to work with you, but they THINK too much and pick up on too much to be obedient and they are sure as heck not above making their own decisions and thinking you are wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong - and then doing what they believe is right. Kind of like ... Hermione Grangers of the dog world. Straight A students but they'll blow your rules to heck if they don't think they're just, fair, sensible and correct and are smart enough to get away with it (or think they can).

ETA: Insufferable know it alls! That's kind of what I wanted to call them, but the words were escaping me.

 

And also they just vary a lot and some are smarter and more biddable and energetic than others.

[Root Beer]

I work full time and my husband works more than full time. We make a really good life for our Border Collies, who are active pets and sport partners.

 

That said, having just raised a Border Collie puppy, and having spent a year finding people to come let the puppy out during my work day, I would recommend starting out with one who is at least 10 months - 1 year old, unless you and your wife work "staggered" schedules, or you have people who can help out with a puppy for a good bit of the first year. I made it work, but it took a lot of legwork at times.

 

And I concur with what CptJack said above. They aren't necessarily obedient!! They can be very well trained, but it can take a good deal of work. It's well worth it, I think, but it is nothing like having a Lab!!

[Cass C]

I concer about borders being nothing like a lab. My mom had a lab when I was at home and while he was easy to train and super obedient he never really made decisions for himself like border collies do. Border collies were bred to think on the fly to best capture escaping animals and keep a group moving forward, when the Shepards may not have even noticed. Retrievers were bred to wait for a command or signal to go retrieve game the hunter shot down otherwise it could get them hurt.

 

I work full time and raised puppies, but I was able to come Home from work at lunch most days to let them outside to potty.

[buckeyemanohio]

Interesting info on the comparison of a lab vs BC. Thanks so much for the replies. I was really starting to think I will never own a Border Collie until I retire. It was so nice to hear that I can still work and own a Border Collie!!! I love dogs and all animals and can't wait to own and train a border collie! One additional question I have for Root Beer or anyone who works full time and leaves their border collie at home. Do they do ok in a crate? That is what I am thinking he will be in when I go to work. Also, I should be able to have someone let him out in the middle of the day for a few months during his early puppy training months. But what happens if I can't get anyone to let him out after about 5 months and he is used to a schedule of going out during the middle of the day??? He will probably be totally screwed up and become destructive or "mess" his crate up. These are the fears I have. I would LOVE to take him to work every day but I don't think that is going to be possible. Any advice? I want the best for my dog but I also have to provide for my family.

[gcv-border]

Welcome to the Boards. Personally, I think that you can have a Border Collie and work full time IF .....

 

Rather than type a long note about your questions (they cover a lot of ground ), I urge you to invest a lot of time (like hours and hours) reading the archives. You can scroll through or, for specific topics, use the search function at the top right of the page. You will gain an incredible education.

 

And to emphasize a point, IMHO, if you don't have the time to raise a pup, DEFINITELY look into a rescue group that fosters dogs (not necessarily the local animal control group who keep dogs in kennels). It sounds like a pup (from 6-18 months) would work well for you. With a 'teenage' dog, you will have a much better idea of their personality, adult size, instinctive behaviors, work/play ethic, etc. And by going through a rescue group that fosters, the foster will be able to provide you with a description of the dog (see above) so you have a higher chance of getting the dog that fits your lifestyle and other needs. You will also begin to train immediately and will probably spend less time with housetraining.

 

Note: you may also be able to buy a 'trained' goose control dog. There is a woman who lives about an hour from me who has a goose dog training business - or at least she used to. Not sure if the website is up to date.

[mum24dog]

Does chasing geese away actually work or do they just come back when the dog's gone? They aren't stupid.

 

I assume that we're taking wild geese that can fly so why would a dog bother them that much that they wouldn't return to a valued spot?

 

A goose herding dog that keeps a specific population under control is different from someone bringing in their own dog to chase them away I'm sure.

[CptJack]

Does chasing geese away actually work or do they just come back when the dog's gone? They aren't stupid.

 

I assume that we're taking wild geese that can fly so why would a dog bother them that much that they wouldn't return to a valued spot?

 

They aren't stupid ;-) There are places they can go to nest and feed where they aren't being harassed by predators.

 

They actually DO work. When used on runways the geese tend to come back, but that's a quick job. Used regularly at golf courses and the like, they STAY away. Because that's no longer a valued spot. Because it has a dog chasing them every time they set down and get no peace.

[CptJack]

OP, you should not have a problem transitioning to being crated for a full work day. It's no different than taking a puppy out every 20 minutes when it's tiny and out and moving around, and then every hour, then every couple of hours and so on. Once the physical ability to hold it is there, it's going to hold it when crated.

 

As an aside, please don't dismiss 'not obedient'. It sounds like we're saying it with a wink and a nudge about how smart they are, and a lot of people take that, but there's no joking here. They are NOT always obedient dogs. Smart and obedient DON'T go hand in hand, and neither does speed of learning a command translate to reliable, consistence in doing it because you told them to.

Definitely read these boards more and see what kinds of things people deal with. Some of that's that free thinking decision making, and some of it's prey-drive (because that's what herding IS) and some of it's reactivity, and some of it's fear/shyness issues.

Also another thing to be prepared for re: differences from labs. They are way more inclined toward being soft/sensitive than a lab. You can smack a lab with a 2X4 and yell at it and most labs will be fine. Most border collies will crumple like a wet paper sack.

[juliepoudrier]

I work full time and currently have someone who works at the farm and can let my dogs out. Usually I just let her do that for the very old and very young. For most of the puppies I have raised while working full time I have been able to safely bring them to work and then use my lunch and breaks to get them out for potty and play. I have one I couldn't do that with, but fortunately I worked about 15 minutes from home. I couldn't get home for a half hour lunch break, but it did mean that an 8-hour work day wasn't much longer for the pup. In her case, she was in a very large crate with a specific place inside set aside for pottying. It didn't take any longer to housebreak her than any of the others.

 

Others have already commented on what "smart" really means when it comes to border collies. They learn very quickly in general, and that means they can learn bad habits/behaviors as easily as good ones. If you start with a puppy, just keep that in mind. What's a cute behavior in a pup might not be so cute in an adult, and it's much more difficult to "untrain" something onces it's been learned.

 

There comes a point in every pup's life where they stop being let out so often. If a pup can sleep through the night, it can also sleep through the day. When they are up and active they need to eliminate more, but if in a crate and basically sleeping, they will manage to hold it rather than soil their den (in general). I have a 4 month old now who could probably last all day. If I thought she couldn't, and I couldn't get someone to let her out, I'd give her a large enough crate to place a pee pad or similar in (caveat: they will sometimes chew such things; current pup has no bedding or pee pads or anything because she started chewing that instead of the plentiful chews I left her with). But if it's a worry for you, it never hurts for a first time owner to start with an adolescent dog and then add a pup later when they feel more ready for dealing with a border collie puppy.

 

I have raised 8 puppies now, and there may be a ninth coming along sooner or later, but I started with three rescue dogs (obtained sequentially, with some time in between each one), all of which were a year to 18 months old when I got them. Even with the first adult, there was something of a "buyer's remorse" period when I was asking myself "What have I done?!?" But all three were a great introduction to the breed (the first was a border collie x Aussie) and I felt ready when I got my first puppy (incidentally, the dog that followed that puppy was a 5 year old, followed by a semi-retired open trial dog, who was 6 or 7, and then a 3 year old trained working dog before I ever got my second puppy).

 

Everyone's journey is different. I love puppies, love raising and training them, and now that I live in a place with a concrete floor, don't even mind puppy accidents in the house, lol! I know people who really don't like the work of tiny puppies, and prefer to get them at 4-5 months or older.

 

My point is that if you want a border collie and are worried about how to raise a puppy and work full time, a adolescent/young adult would allow you to learn about training and living with a border collie without jumping feet first into raising a border collie puppy.

 

As for goose control work, it's more than just "chasing geese." It can be a lucrative business, depending on your location and the willingness of people there to pay for your services, but there are aspects of training, as well as legal issues related to control of a federally protected species, that you would need to learn about. There are people who have businesses based around providing trained dogs for goose/bird control work. I'm not trying to discourage you from this, just letting you know that you'd need to do your research, and especially if you'd be doing such work in very public places be prepared to deal with folks who don't want the geese bothered and also with the need to train your dog to deal with the public, traffic (for its own safety), etc. You also have to have the sort of personality that makes you a good salesperson because although some people will seek you out, if you want to be profitable, you're going to have to be able to reach out to the community, learn to quote jobs, recognize what your limits are during the busiest times of the year (now, when geese are getting ready to start nesting) so that you are able to fulfill all of your contracts successfully and so on. Training for goose/bird control work is not as in depth as training for stockdog trials, for example, but there is training that's necessary for your dog, and of course you have to learn how to work the dog appropriately for the job you want to do. (Many goose control folks also use kayaks or canoes for larger bodies of water, so there's that aspect of the business as well). If it's something you're interested in, start doing your research now.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Mum24dog,

As Capt. Jack noted, if the geese are harassed regularly, they will eventually decide it's not worth coming back. That can take a while, depending on the value to the geese of the property in question. The goose control people I know make their rounds on a regular basis (daily or twice a day for particular problem areas) in order to convince the geese to move on.

 

Someone just randomly letting their pet dog chase geese around could get in trouble because they are a federally protected species here in the states.

 

There's a whole public PR aspect of any goose control business that is probably as important as actually convincing the geese to move on.

 

J.

[gcv-border]

Re: goose control --

what Julie has said is very important with regard to public protection of geese, PR issues, marketing, demand for your services, etc.

 

Yes, the geese are chased away multiple times per day particularly in nesting season. The idea is to prevent the geese from laying eggs because (1) one can not legally destroy goose eggs and (2) generally the geese will come back to where they were raised. Therefore, if no little ones are born, the only population to control are the resident geese which will eventually die due to old age or predation or disease. Of course, there are probably always new geese looking to move into available territory. Hmmm, sounds like a self-sustaining job.

[Root Beer]

I do crate. My young boy doesn't actually like to be confined and I actually ended up getting him a HUGE crate - German Shepherd sized! But that's him. Back when he was young and was in a Beagle sized crate, my big adult Border Collie used to try to squeeze himself in there! He adores being crated and I have to leave an empty crate open in the house for him, so he can crate himself when he takes the notion.

 

Bandit adjusted and he's doing fine. He would prefer to be loose, but just can't be trusted yet. I did transition him to sleeping loose in the bedroom as soon as it was reasonably possible to do so (he was about 6 months old and I puppy proofed the heck out of the room).

 

I had various people coming to let him out during the day and they couldn't all come at the same time. If you think the time for his break will vary, maybe have the person, or people, letting the puppy out come at different times from the start. He has never had an issue with someone coming earlier or later than might have been "usual".

 

He's about a year old now and I only have someone come in once a week, and then on any long days that I might have due to a meeting.

[buckeyemanohio]

_{WOW! Awesome advice and info from ALL of you! That's why I love coming on to these sorts of forums. There is always a lot of people with a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. I love it, I just soak it all in and will reference these discussions as I move forward. I will continue to ask questions and post on here since you all seem like really cool people that are very knowledgeable and experienced border collie owners! I will continue reading and learning more about this intelligent breed on here and wherever I can get info. When I get closer to the time I get our puppy I will definitely be reaching out to all of you. Like I said, I have trained a few puppies before (the best being my 13yr old lab) but I have never trained a border collie. I'm ready, excited, but nervous too.}

[juliepoudrier]

Just a point of clarification: people working in goose control can damage eggs, either by coating them in oil or by addling, which is essentially shaking them up, so that they don't hatch. Doing these things requires a permit, I believe, and there are specific rules about when it can be done. (For example, if one were to break the eggs, the geese would likely simply abandon the nest and go lay another clutch elsewhere, but if the eggs appear normal externally, the goose will continue to sit, which means she's not out laying more...).

 

J.

[ourwully]

I got Juno at 10 weeks, and she was my first puppy. There were times when I was pulling my hair out but even during those times it was such an adventure. I got Juno thinking that she would train quickly, I would get on with my life and she would fit in where dogs usually fit in . Juno is now 15 months old and I am still training. The funny thing is that the journey (helped along with this forum) was something I had never thought about yet it is probably the best part. When things start to go right you feel like you've just climbed Everest. Right now I am in my recliner and Juno is sleeping quietly at the bottom of the chair with her head resting on my knee. In a couple of minutes we are going to go out for a long walk in the woods. We will still be working on all kinds of things but they are all coming easier now. We are a pair now and I swear that she seems to understand half of what I say. Get a Border Collie and enjoy the ride.

cheers

Bill

[GentleLake]

The goose control people I know make their rounds on a regular basis (daily or twice a day for particular problem areas) in order to convince the geese to move on.

 

And, as people have noted, the geese aren't stupid, so they'll learn that certain times of day aren't safe if goose patrols arrive on a set schedule, and then just come back when the dogs have gone. So they usually have to have a varied and unpredictable schedule so they can outwit the geese.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Yep.

 

J.

[buckeyemanohio]

thanks Julie & Gentle for the insight of goose chasing. Im sure if I ever get to that stage or desire to start that sort of business I will do a LOT more research and seek out someone that can help me train my dog to do such chores.

 

Bill thanks for the vote of confidence! I hope to make the "plunge" possibly this summer! In the meantime keep sending advice and info my way I will keep soaking it in!

[moosikins]

My husband and I both work full time. We just make sure that we spend quality time interacting with her in the evenings and on weekends. For us, that entails a lot of talking to her like a member of the family and letting her "help" with stuff. We'll make a pile of her toys for her to sort through and pick one, hide some treats in corners and on top of chairs to sniff out, and she gets all the junk mail to destroy (although it took some time before she learned that not all of the mail was hers to shred). She also works for her dinner either with training sessions or if we don't have time to hand feed, a Kong Wobbler that she has to smack around with her nose or paws to spill food. Oh, and her favorite activity is making sure that my husband and I are in the same room. If we're not, she'll go seek out one of us and nudge or poke us back into the "right" room.

 

On weekends we go to the Metroparks or sometimes even just for walks around our house to sniff all the neighbor dogs' yards. She also gets many doggie play dates with our friends' dogs because she's very social and gets pretty visibly lonely when we go too long without one (we only have the one dog and no kids yet). We also met a lot of new dogs at training so that was great socialization as well. Lastly, we try to take her to different places with us like the store or if we're visiting friends. On visits to the store, she's usually left in the car with the engine on (a remote starter was the BEST investment we've made in the vehicle) and naps while we're in there. I think she really enjoys the ride and being included.

[buckeyemanohio]

Great! Thanks moosikins! Love to hear positive feedback about both husband and wife working and still owning a border collie. I continue reading and waiting for that day that we finally get one. Thanks for the info too!