sugarpup Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Some of you have been following my story about Freyja the feral dog who was seven months in the dog pound. She's doing quite well, very happy and affectionate with me, getting better with my husband but she's become very very vocal towards my autistic daughter who has not done a single thing to agitate her further. My daughter will not interact with her in any way (even when i am not there) so it's not like she's teasing her or touching her or even looking at her or something. I don't know what to say to Freyja. I was told NOT to stop her barking as it would make her eventually bite instead, but ignoring it has just made it worse. I tried just saying in a very calm voice "hush Freyja, it's just our Lonnie". Makes no difference if i acknowledge it or not. The barking is quite frenzied and stops when Lonnie leaves the room. The dog can leave anytime she wants. Autistic people with sensory issues do not care to have loud hysterical barking occurring as you can imagine. It hurts her ears and frightens her. I love this dog but i love my daughter more. All my daughter wants is to be ignored in this situation. I need some concrete advice. Soon please as it is getting worse daily!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Control Unleashed, the Puppy Program. It's a book and a highly recommend it. So highly, in fact, that if you can't access it, that if you give me your information I will mail a copy to you. (Give it via PM). This is, basically, reactivity. "Reactivity is an information-seeking strategy. A reactive dog will rush toward something or someone that he is uncertain about, barking, lunging, growling, and making a big display. People sometimes perceive reactive behavior as aggression, but the reactive dog is not rushing in to do damage; he is attempting to assess the threat level of a given situation. His assessment strategy is intensified because he is panicking as the adrenaline flows through his body. If a reactive dog learns to feel confident about something, he is less worried about that thing and therefore reacts less to it." Leslie McDevitt The quote above is from the book I mentioned. I have both a reactive dog and an autistic teenager. Bottom line? Your daughter isn't teasing the dog but the way she behaves is 'off' to the dog's perception. You can deal with this but you need to absolutely not shut her up but instead to teach her how to handle that uncertainty.That means create distance FOR the dog (the dog will not walk away, you are going to have to move the dog) and play games like 'look at that' and reward the dog for glancing (from a distance she does not react) and reward for taking her attention off your daughter and putting it back onto you. Expect it to take time, and absolutely practice heavy supervision and separation while you do. BAT ( http://empoweredanimals.com/ ) may also help. But mostly, you want to teach the dog how to handle it and practice and not force the issue. Reward for what's right, as in everything, and that's keeping her attention on you, and ignoring your daughter. Be sympathetic for everyone. It's not fun for your daughter (trust me, I know) but from the dog's perception your daughter is behaving in strange and scary ways and she needs to learn HOW to cope with that, not just taught how NOT to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Is is possible that she's trying to alert you to something that's atypical regarding your daughter's behavior or the way she appears to Freyja? Maybe she's realized that you act a certain way and your daughter does not...I don't have any experience with this, but I was just thinking of all the stories I've heard that dogs are really intuitive and now that she's learned that your house is safe and friendly and understands how things are supposed to work, she's perhaps identifying the things that don't quite fit into her limited understanding of the world? Just a thought...Good luck to you and your family with pup. Sounds like things are really progressing well for you and I'm sure you'll have this behavior under control in no time too! P.S. - Callie alert-barks at all sorts of things that we don't care to know about or identify and we have always just told her "Shhh, it's fine. You're okay" and now when she alert barks, she looks at us as if to say "Is it okay?" and goes closer to investigate quietly if we tell her it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugarpup Posted February 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I would say that Freyja absolutely sees a difference in behavior. The differences are extremely obvious. My daughter doesn't have language the way ordinary people do and her singsong vocalizations are definitely peculiar though many people find them charming surprisingly enough. Like unique birdsong. I have been taking cpt.Jack's good advice and will read Control Unleashed when I receive it. Today I gave Freyja numerous tiny pieces of smoked turkey while she was being quiet. Even turkey was not enough to stop the barking when my daughter actually approached me, but Freyja then retreated to another area and did not bark from the other room. Our home is sort of open concept on the main floor so there's places where you can't see the other side of the house but because there are no doors, you can definitely hear. I thought today was a definite improvement, so I was happy with how it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Good job so far. I don't have much to add except that turkey may not be her jackpot treat. It could be beef, venison, duck, chicken, cheese, hot dog, or tons of other things. You may try a few different treats to try and find the one that makes her ignore all but the yummy treat. Each dog is different Lyka loves beef, Lily loves venison, and my grandma has a poodle that goes nuts for cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugarpup Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Turkey is all I had available today! Lol. The other day we had roast pork and that was a big hit, so I may make one for her and freeze it in portions. Today I bought "salmon and brown rice" treats and both dogs thought they were icky but reluctantly ate them. Those are going back to Costco! It is a journey of discovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sugarpup, if the meat bits still aren't awesome enough to get Freyja's attention, think a bit beyond them. My departed Buzz absolutely loved dried sour cherries. There are stories on the boards about dogs liking broccoli, lettuce, and various other fruits and vegetables. Once you find the Really, Really Good Stuff, only bring it out when you're working with Freyja around your daughter. It will help your girl to change her mind from 'this human acts very oddly' to 'this human means the Really Good Stuff!'. And that makes it easier. Good luck! Ruth and SuperGibbs, who is a lover of apples, oranges, grapefruit and broccoli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Something else you might try - have a stuffed kong ready to go. If she starts barking, call her to you and when she's calm reward her with the kong that she can take into the other room and work on. It will help her learn that being around your daughter is okay and rewarding. It should also help her learn that she is able to leave a situation that she is uncomfortable with and do something else. You're redirecting her from something not appropriate for your home to something she *can* do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think a lot of people had good luck with liverwurst, even those who had dogs who weren't food-driven. I gave Kieran some pâté once and even though he is incredibly food-driven, he went even crazier for that--like some little liver fiend. It's pretty unhealthy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 That spray cheese in a can is doggy crack. And easy to have a few cans sitting around in different locations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Dear Doggers, Some years ago enroute to a dog trial I stopped at my autistic son Jon's group home for a visit. One of his minders suggested I introduce him to Luke and June. Since Luke was very - and seriously - crate protective I left him in the back of the wagon and let amiable June out. Jon, who loved cars, ignored June entirely to climb into the back of the wagon, sticking his hands through the wire of Luke's crate to help himself in. Instead of biting Jon, Luke scooted to the back of the crate petrified and docile. Jon never "saw" either dog nor, on subsiquent visits to the farm has he "seen" the sheep. He does, however "see cows" and is fascinated by them. Temple Grandin is wonderful on ruminants but doesn't "see" dogs. Border Collies are hyper-sensitive to anything unusual or out of place and the dog's alerting on autistic behavior is probably what's going on here. I hope some suggestions here help. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I definitely agree with CptJack's advice. There are multiple types of barking and each case can be treated differently. If this was just an alert bark or a happy bark then you could work on capturing it and turning the bark into a trick. But this seems to be a reactive bark. Freya is trying to assess something that she doesn't understand and it frighten's her. Control Unleashed (CU) has a lot of good training advice (although, can be a lot to sift through to get to the actual exercises, but the author wants you to understand what the exercises are trying to do), I am using it for my 8 month old BC who is hyper vigilant on walks and mildly reactive. There are a few things that I want to mention though. First, I don't believe that "hush Freyja" is going to do any good in this situation. As you will learn from CU, Freyja is likely way over her threshold. At that moment she is probably super stressed out. Yes, Freyja is being annoying, but think about her state of mind. Consider a kid who is terrified of dogs. Lock him in a house with a friendly dog and what do you think will happen. Is he going to approach the dog and overcome his fears? No, he is going to cry, be terrified, probably scream at the dog, and be super stressed. The best thing you can do for Freyja is remove her from the area and take her to a place where she can calm down. When she is over her threshold you can't work with her. Don't attempt to calm her in the presence of her trigger (or basically when she is close enough to her trigger to be over threshold). But also don't just leave her to work it out on her own. The advice of ignoring barking works for agitated or frustrated barking (like when your dog is trying to get you to play or if your dog barks while in a crate), but this isn't a good idea for a dog that is showing reactive behavior. Second, as for food, in this situation it probably isn't going to matter what food choice you make. Freyja may love turkey (or insert favorite food here) below threshold, but once she is over threshold food likely won't matter. This happens with my BC. Before I knew better I would try to redirect his attention with a favorite treat, but he was too stressed/wound up to take it. Also, if you are able to treat while above threshold then you are actually rewarding the unwanted behavior. As for concrete advice for what to do right now, I would say that you should start the 'Look at That!' game from CU with Freyja and your daughter. This game is designed to recondition how a dog responds to everything in it's environment, and you should be able to get pretty quick results. Of course, below is just a summary of how you can start it, this is not a substitute for the CU program. This should help Freyja with your daughter, but to really help Freyja you should definitely do the other exercises in the book (and have your husband do some of the passive attention exercises). First, recognize when you dog is below threshold (this is probably the most important thing to know in the CU program), and it may be different then when you currently think. The first signs of going over threshold are tensing of the muscles and an intense focus on the trigger. The barking comes later. Like CptJack says, you will want to start far away from your daughter. You need to find the distance that Freyja can look at the trigger (i.e. your daughter) without going over her threshold. Once she looks at the trigger you can click&treat (if you don't use a clicker then say a quick and high 'Yes!' to mark the behavior, but a clicker is recommended to speed up the process). Then keep doing this over and over (looks at daughter, click&treat, repeat). If you are below threshold then eventually Freyja will just start glancing at your daughter and then look at you for a treat. Freyja doesn't break focus to get the treat then you are probably over threshold. You want to reward the look behavior, not an intense stare. Once Freyja no longer wants to look at your daughter she may try to find shortcuts to get the treat (such as just giving a dart of the eyes in that direction). This is when you can move closer and repeat the process. This will basically rewire her thought process. So before it was to see the trigger then spiral out of control. After this it will be to see the trigger then check for a reward. Good luck with Freyja and hopefully CU helps! There are other games in the book that should help even more with this. I think the look at that game will just mostly help with Freyja's reaction to unknown things, but there are other games that will help Freyja actually be around your daughter and not just be able to look at her without freaking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugarpup Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ah geez. I am doing it all wrong again. I thought i did okay yesterday. Our other dogs were more empathetic. Bogart still lies beside Lonnie and gives affection whether it is reciprocated or not. Our late Harriet kept all big dogs at the park away from Lonnie because she knew they might knock her over. I'm starting to wonder whether this border collie has a heart in her sufficient to be a member of this screwy family. If the Best I can look forward to is Freya ignoring Lonnie as a "scary monster that she doesn't pay attention to", that is not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm starting to wonder whether this border collie has a heart in her sufficient to be a member of this screwy family. You've got a fearful dog who hasn't become comfortable enough in her own skin (and her new environment) for you know what kind of "heart" she may have. Your other dogs were able to be more empathetic because they were more comfortable to begin with. Freyja's not your other dogs and she needs your empathy now as the individual she is. Comparing her to other dogs isn't going to do any of you any good. The one common theme that's persisted throughout all the comments in the different topics you've posted about Freyja is that this will take time. Lots of time. And lots of patience. And lots of work on your part. If you can't accept that and give her the time and attention she needs to overcome her fears, then you may be setting yourself up for a self fulfilling prophesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 It's definitely way too soon to be thinking about giving up. Freyja is still very new to your home. She not only has to discover your home and daughter, but she's also discovering and becoming comfortable with herself. These are very new experiences to her, and it's ok for her to be fearful! Fear can be overcome with time and patience. I won't give you any suggestions to help her, I'd just be a broken record. Everyone has hit the nail on the head. You can't hold Freyja to the same standards as your other dogs, because she's not your other dogs. She will bring a completely new experience to the house, and it can be a very good one if you set her up correctly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a dog that's less affectionate. From the sound of it, Lonnie (what a beautiful name) isn't interested in interacting with the dogs. There's no reason for Freyja to be particularly affectionate if it's not wanted. There would be more of an issue if Lonnie was seeking out attention from a fearful dog, but she's not. You just have to condition Freyja to view Lonnie as being a good thing and you will have created a very peaceful relationship with mutual respect. My brother has autism, so I know very well what you and your dog are going through. The reality is that your dog does, and possibly always will, view your daughter as being different and therefore a little uncomfortable. All of our dogs recognize the differences with Andrew. However, even though they can be very uncomfortable at times, they still are more than ok with him. When Andrew has a tantrum of sorts or starts yelling, they dogs split. One hides under a desk, all the others crawl into the nearest lap. But, once the situation is over, they're back to being their normal selves and some enjoy interacting with him. Half the dogs go back to loving him, the other half prefer to ignore his existence. And that's ok! Every dog has cultivated their own relationship and reactions to him. Freyja will do the same with your daughter. Ultimately, if you choose to do so, you can create a functional relationship between the two that ends with a happy daughter and a happy dog. They likely will never relate to each other in the same way Freyja does to you, but that's ok! You can most certainly create a dog that doesn't bark at her and knows how to handle herself when things become uncomfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ah geez. I am doing it all wrong again. I thought i did okay yesterday. Our other dogs were more empathetic. Bogart still lies beside Lonnie and gives affection whether it is reciprocated or not. Our late Harriet kept all big dogs at the park away from Lonnie because she knew they might knock her over. I'm starting to wonder whether this border collie has a heart in her sufficient to be a member of this screwy family. If the Best I can look forward to is Freya ignoring Lonnie as a "scary monster that she doesn't pay attention to", that is not good. Why is it not good enough that Freya ignores your daughter? If both are happy and comfortable ignoring each other then why is that not enough? Just like your daughter is different from others her age, Freya is different from other dogs. I can certainly understand if you're not able to deal with a special needs dog on top of caring for your special needs daughter. But it that is the case then it might be better for you to work with a rescue group to place her in a different home. Because she does have some unique and special needs that have to be acknowledged, accepted and worked with. It's just who she is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm curious what is so bad about ignoring your daughter, since it seems like your daughter has no interest in playing or interacting with Freya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Aw, don't get disheartened! You saw how everything improved after the last round of hardship. Keep trying and you'll find a good balance...Remember, 6 weeks is the MINIMUM for an adjustment period and as one of the more experienced members pointed out on the last thread it could be months before you've experienced every personality quirk and discovered and understood every fear and apprehension this dog might have! Take it slow - it sounds like you're making really great progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Please, don't give up until you've gotten the book, read it and and worked on some of the exercises and games. It's possible that the best you will get is mutual ignoring, but I don't see why that's bad since you said in your first post that your daughter doesn't interact with the dog, anyway. It's also possible that your dog will learn to associate your daughter with positive things and look forward to/enjoy seeing her there. You have the patience and ability to empathize with your daughter and to have raised her and gotten through those rough spots. I am absolutely sure you have the patience to work with, and ability to sympathize with, a scared dog who doesn't understand the world around her and doesn't quite fit or have the coping skills to know how to handle being overwhelmed and confused. No, I'm not comparing your daughter to the dog - or any child to a dog - but I am saying if you have the skills to raise an autistic child you have the skills to help and understand this special needs dog, and to be patient and gentle with her. The dog will be a lot easier, even. And you're doing WELL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm starting to wonder whether this border collie has a heart in her sufficient to be a member of this screwy family. If the Best I can look forward to is Freya ignoring Lonnie as a "scary monster that she doesn't pay attention to", that is not good. I still agree with everyone else and also want to point out that the 'Look at that!" game from CU is not intended to train a dog to not pay attention to the "scary monster". This game is meant to teach the dog a new response to the "scary monster". You wanted a quick way to stop the barking and 'Look at that!' is probably one of the best options for quickly teaching Freyja to not lose control when she sees your daughter. Once Freyja learns to stay relaxed around your daughter, then you can move forward with making her a part of your family. It sounds like Freyja isn't a bad dog, just a frightened dog that lacks confidence. You definitely have the opportunity to show her that the world isn't a scary place. Like CptJack said, definitely read the book before you give up. The exercises can make a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Also, I'd like to say if my posts about Molly's reactivity are what is putting you off, please don't. You can absolutely move forward with your daughter (as Chanse says) and dog to make POSITIVE associations. Taking her attention off your daughter and putting it onto you is just step one. My goal is to get Molly to ignore other dogs in favor of paying attention to me, but that doesn't mean it's end stage for anyone else. The other dogs aren't part of our family, and her reactions aren't really fear based, so much as pure frustration and inability to figure out what to do with herself around other dogs. The direction I go with those exercises and working with it is going to be different from your arc with Freyja, because the dogs and situations are different. But it takes very little time, once they figure it out, to start seeing progress and once you've got ignoring you've got a household where everyone's comfortable and can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugarpup Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Thanks for all the input. I am not about to quit, i am in for a penny, in for a pound, on this one. But it is stressful for all concerned. I don't know border collies though our Harriet was a cross I think. She was my son's heart dog, and lived for his smile. She's only been gone about seven weeks, and since Freyja also barks at my son, every day I have to hear that "there's something wrong with this dog, why did we get this mean dog, this dog hates everybody but you . . ." etc. etc. he is still broken hearted over Harriet's death. I think he should grab a brain and get over it. He can mourn all he wants but I don't want him to criticize the new dog. It put doubts in my mind where I should only have positive thoughts. Freyja is doing her best I know. Today in a moment of enthusiasm she actually jumped in my lap to be cuddled. This is a far far cry from one month ago where she wouldn't come near ANYBODY, even the pound people she knew for 7 months. I think she has come along way very quickly. I think a family unit should be full of people who love each other, not just put up with each other. It's what I'm working toward. So, everybody, please realize that it's often the stress and frustration talking. I love this little dog, she is a dear thing. Just under a lot of pressure to do things right. Picture of Harriet attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Adorable pic! Would love to keep reading updates from you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree. Freyja has come a long way very quickly in some ways. I hope you keep posting updates, as well. I know sometimes I get frustrated with things and need some reminders that I need to be more patient with the process and just let it unfold. It can't help that you've got 2 people who are upset with Freyja, even if it's for different reasons. Hang in there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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