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How Old Should BC Baby Be for First "Job"?


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So Brody is 12 weeks, almost 13. We've got housetraining handled. Crate training is mastered. He's a pretty easy going little guy. Not a big ball drive, not crazy hyper or anything. He has a good handle on "no", "sit", "pee" (I don't know how I did THAT but he pees when told). I know before he can even consider the dog park I need him to have a dependable recall, so I'll be researching that next. But the big thing for a BC (X) and any other intelligent breed is "give them a job".

 

Now, here's where the story gets long. I also have an almost 4 year old Boykin Spaniel mix. We adopted her when she was around 2 years old, and she came with heartworm. She was a typical hyper high energy spaniel at the time. Heavy fetch drive, lots of bounce and always wanting to play. Then came the heartworm treatment. If anyone's dealt with this, you know they have the first immiticide shot, then have to be kept calm for 30 days. No fetch, no bouncing, no typical spaniel behavior. Then comes two more shots and another 30 days of this. In preparation for this, we did teach her she couldn't demand play, and could only play when invited. After the 60 days were up, she took this to mean she could never be hyper and bouncy and playful. At the time we had a 9 year old malamute/Shepard mix named Shadow that was the biggest couch potato you've ever met. At first she was always after him to play with her. But post-treatment she adopted his lay about mentality. She started acting like a senior. When Shadow passed away last month. we adopted Brody...the day after. We couldnt stand the empty spot Shadow had left behind (big empty spot, he weighed 100 pounds!).

 

We opted for a puppy this time, and the shelter we got Mocha from had this litter of BC mixes. We figured a puppy would first of all not come with any pre-existing behavior problems due to neglect, abuse, etc. We could raise him to be the kind of dog we wanted, and having a puppy would be good for Mocha, who was 4 going on 40. He immediately and without hesitation bonded with her. After a couple days it was mutual, and he has made it his mission to get her playing every chance he gets. And he's good at it! He really gets her going, and even her fetch drive is returning.

 

So, long story for a short question. As long as he bonds as well with us, which I believe he is, is "be Mocha's playmate" a good enough job for him?

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I don't think there is anything wrong with him being her playmate, but I think you're going to find that he ages that, depending on how much drive he has, that it isn't going to be *enough* for him. I also think you may potentially see some problems with the way he plays as he matures, and her tolerance of it.

 

Put another way, a lot of the way BCs play involves practicing herding behavior on other dogs - stalking, chasing, giving the eye, sometimes grabbing, controlling their movements, stopping them from getting places, etc. - and that doesn't always go over so well with the other dog. Even when the dog is tolerant, it's not so much fun. Now, not allowing that to happen with things that aren't appropriate means that usually they'll be okay to play.


But it also means that drive to work with people and control movement isn't being used and you're likely to find you're going to have to give him SOME other outlet.

 

I've got 5 dogs. Molly does good in various ways with 3 of the other 4. The 4th not so much. She has had on again off again periods of stalking, chasing, gripping, blocking, and generally being an obnoxious JERK to all but the GSD mix who is bigger than her and just doesn't care/also acts and plays mostly like a herding dog, but mostly they do okay.

But it's really, really not any kind of outlet for her brain or drive.

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Capt Jack has raised some very good points. Being that your puppy is a BC-mix, there's no telling what behaviors he'll manifest or whether he'll act more BC or more "mix." But you should prepare yourself to deal with and train for any undesirable things he may decide to do.

The stalking and movement-controlling could be a factor, which Molly could eventually find annoying, and if your pup acts truly BC, you may find him prone to things like compulsively shadowing her every move, blocking her movements, or nipping her in play. And while he may be enough for her, as he grows you may find that she's not enough for him. A bored BC is a creative BC and they can easily fall into bad habits such as chasing cats, stalking leaf shadows, digging holes, barking, chewing and so forth.

It sounds like they are a lovely pair of pals, but depending how your pup develops, you should learn more about the BC breed and be prepared to address a very clever, busy, non-stop brain, if it develops that playing with Molly does not satisfy his mind.

In other words, you may have to broaden your job description to compensate if Molly does not fill his. A border collie rarely does well as "just" a pal for another dog. He also needs his owner to be fully involved in his life and training.

We're kind of feeding you a worse-case scenario, here, and given that he is a mix and we don't know what that mix is, or how much he may take after the non-BC side of the family tree, perhaps none of it will apply. But we've seen plenty of instances of people being utterly overwhelmed when their adorable BC or BC-mix puppy turns 6 months or a year old and suddenly becomes a little hellion. B) So, this is basically forewarning and food for thought.

Best of luck, and I'm glad Molly is regaining her spark along with her health.

~ Gloria

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Most dogs benefit from having something to stretch their mental faculties, not just working bred dogs. Molly probably would too.

 

My dogs' "job" is to be good living companions (some are better at it than others) but that includes non domestic activities like agility for those that enjoy it.

 

I have a list of probables / possibles for my 13 wo pup and we have started the groundwork already.

 

Agility is the main objective.

 

A bit of competitive obedience / rally / flyball because they won't involve a lot of training over and above what we will be doing anyway and can be fitted in around agility.

 

Possibly a bit of sheep work if I am sure I have suffient control of him around stock, although I suspect that his working prospects may be adversely affected by his other training.

 

We'll play it by ear. It's very early days and for the moment manners are the priority.

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I'm amused by how many dogs in this thread turned into Molly (I'm teasing, not at all upset and think it's funny. OP's non BC is Mocha).

 

Just in case: My dog is Molly - she's 5 months old and *does* get age appropriate agility foundations training (as well as other brain work/training) as well as age appropriate exercise and that will carry on. A couple of my other dogs also do agility, too, though at radically varying levels. Her obnoxiousness and bad behavior with other animals is interrupted, redirected, and/or just plain not allowed for the sake of everyone involved.

 

And, yes. Worse case scenario. Just be prepared for changes as Brody gets older (that's inevitable, though how is going to be unpredictable) and for the possibility for him to need more.

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Yes, I agree with providing additional 'jobs' for your BC puppy - whether that be agility, rally, trick training, helping around the house (pick up dropped objects and put in trash, put laundry in the washer, or ....?), flyball or nosework or tracking or something else.

 

I bet Mocha would love to learn nosework/tracking too!

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I don't think there is anything wrong with him being her playmate, but I think you're going to find that he ages that, depending on how much drive he has, that it isn't going to be *enough* for him. I also think you may potentially see some problems with the way he plays as he matures, and her tolerance of it.

 

Put another way, a lot of the way BCs play involves practicing herding behavior on other dogs - stalking, chasing, giving the eye, sometimes grabbing, controlling their movements, stopping them from getting places, etc. - and that doesn't always go over so well with the other dog. Even when the dog is tolerant, it's not so much fun. Now, not allowing that to happen with things that aren't appropriate means that usually they'll be okay to play.

 

But it also means that drive to work with people and control movement isn't being used and you're likely to find you're going to have to give him SOME other outlet.

 

I've got 5 dogs. Molly does good in various ways with 3 of the other 4. The 4th not so much. She has had on again off again periods of stalking, chasing, gripping, blocking, and generally being an obnoxious JERK to all but the GSD mix who is bigger than her and just doesn't care/also acts and plays mostly like a herding dog, but mostly they do okay.

 

But it's really, really not any kind of outlet for her brain or drive.

 

He hasn't shown much if any BC traits yet. He does go for her feet, a lot. But Mocha certainly doesn't mind. In fact she just walked into the room, stub wagging, Brody hanging from her ear and sliding along behind her...lol. He's been very good taking cues from her. If she lays down to sleep and ignores him, he'll go get a toy and amuse himself. Interestingly it's the spaniel that will stop Brody from going places, he gets the zoomies at night and she tends to block his path and make him bounce off of her. For right now at least, they seem to have a mutually agreed upon relationship. And Mocha is losing some weight to boot which she needs!

 

Mind you that isn't all he does all day. We have playtime with people too, and treatball and his green bowl which he refuses to think through and flips over for the kibble instead of using his tongue >.<

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Yes, I agree with providing additional 'jobs' for your BC puppy - whether that be agility, rally, trick training, helping around the house (pick up dropped objects and put in trash, put laundry in the washer, or ....?), flyball or nosework or tracking or something else.

 

I bet Mocha would love to learn nosework/tracking too!

 

Oh how I wish Mocha would like things like that. But She has some issues. like in the yard, she runs off the patio to do her business and runs right back to it. She doesn't like to play in the grass even during the day but at night it's even worse. She came to animal control as a stray, and we're pretty sure judging by her behavior with doors and outside she was put outside and not allowed back in.

 

I'd like to get at least manners and tricks trained with Brody, we're still having issues with his focus. If food is a reward he focuses solely on the fact that food is present. Nothing else, and we haven't been able to break through that just yet. His manners aren't bad at all, he does sit, stay (short stays), and accepts no very well.

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Capt Jack has raised some very good points. Being that your puppy is a BC-mix, there's no telling what behaviors he'll manifest or whether he'll act more BC or more "mix." But you should prepare yourself to deal with and train for any undesirable things he may decide to do.

 

The stalking and movement-controlling could be a factor, which Molly could eventually find annoying, and if your pup acts truly BC, you may find him prone to things like compulsively shadowing her every move, blocking her movements, or nipping her in play. And while he may be enough for her, as he grows you may find that she's not enough for him. A bored BC is a creative BC and they can easily fall into bad habits such as chasing cats, stalking leaf shadows, digging holes, barking, chewing and so forth.

 

It sounds like they are a lovely pair of pals, but depending how your pup develops, you should learn more about the BC breed and be prepared to address a very clever, busy, non-stop brain, if it develops that playing with Molly does not satisfy his mind.

 

In other words, you may have to broaden your job description to compensate if Molly does not fill his. A border collie rarely does well as "just" a pal for another dog. He also needs his owner to be fully involved in his life and training.

 

We're kind of feeding you a worse-case scenario, here, and given that he is a mix and we don't know what that mix is, or how much he may take after the non-BC side of the family tree, perhaps none of it will apply. But we've seen plenty of instances of people being utterly overwhelmed when their adorable BC or BC-mix puppy turns 6 months or a year old and suddenly becomes a little hellion. B) So, this is basically forewarning and food for thought.

 

Best of luck, and I'm glad Molly is regaining her spark along with her health.

 

~ Gloria

 

Worst case is fine. 12 years of being an Army Wife has me well versed in prepare for the worst, hope for the best...lol! Brody's mix is a mystery. We do live in the south, and he was obviously bred here. His sibllings with the smooth coats almost have a Staffy face and head, and build. Brody is leggier and has a more angular face. And he does have some serious jaw strength even this young. But it's still a guessing game. However, either side of that mix would need the same advice.

 

These are his brother (front) and sister.

IMG_17657275768118.jpeg

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You might want to try a few classes just to see if you can find something you and Brody enjoy. My daughter is in a intermediate agility class (with a friend's dog, our BC is too young) and most of the people there will never make it past the intermediate level because it just isn't important to them. They are there to have fun with their dogs.

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^This is important to realize.

 

I think a lot of people think agility has to be some huge thing, or takes the most special dog in the world, but absolute truth? I did classes with a 13lb fearful dog and she does fine. I'll probably get a title or two on her just playing around locally. You don't need to be massively competitive, your dog doesn't need to be an obedience champion, and you don't need to be able to go to Worlds to have a good time. Even the foundation classes are a TON of fun for you and the dog.

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1) I think it's a mistake to let a puppy spend too much time with an adult dog. They will bond to the dog, and not to the human. JMO.

 

2) A "job" (for any dog) is something that engages their mind (as others have said). Playing with another dog is the antithesis of that. Nor should a "job" just be a single "chore", like bringing in the newspaper. View it as a process, that doesn't just stop with one task.

 

3) I agree with people who say that this is true of any dog - not just a BC(x). I feel really sad when some of my students (I take my dogs to work with me, at a university, every day) tell me that their dogs "don't even know their own names". I think all dogs thrive on regular human interaction - fresh challenges all the time, regular and consistent expectations in terms of behavior.

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Re: Alchemist- I don't understand how anyone could have a dog and not have it understand its own name. You'd imagine just talking to the dog and regular interaction would teach that. In fact, I'd find it near impossible NOT to teach an ordinary dog to respond to something, even if it's just 'Dog', if I had to take care of it for any length of time.

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1) I think it's a mistake to let a puppy spend too much time with an adult dog. They will bond to the dog, and not to the human. JMO.

 

2) A "job" (for any dog) is something that engages their mind (as others have said). Playing with another dog is the antithesis of that. Nor should a "job" just be a single "chore", like bringing in the newspaper. View it as a process, that doesn't just stop with one task.

 

3) I agree with people who say that this is true of any dog - not just a BC(x). I feel really sad when some of my students (I take my dogs to work with me, at a university, every day) tell me that their dogs "don't even know their own names". I think all dogs thrive on regular human interaction - fresh challenges all the time, regular and consistent expectations in terms of behavior.

1. Brody was adopted from his litter at 8 weeks old. It was natural that he was going to bond with Mocha first, we fully anticipated that, and we're hoping for it since she had just lost her housemate. Even so, my husband was only here for a few days with Brody, before he left for a month. In that time they completely became each others. When Mr Jess came home Brody went crazy with happiness. We have always and will always have 2 dogs. His and hers we joke..lol Mocha is very much bonded to me. Our last male was bonded to the husband. Thats npt to say they didn't bond with everyone in 5he househd, but thry have their favorites . both dogs were also very tightly bonded to each other.

 

2. As I said it's simply his first job. It certainly isn't the only thing he does all day. When I'm focused on classwork, he us playing with her. This is also her job, keep puppy busy while mommy does college. When I'm done for the day I spend plenty of time working with him on impulse control, play, and in a couple weeks he'll begin obedience in the home with a local trainer and myself to add to his repotoire.

 

3. No problems in the name department. He knew that in the first week. Though he might think his name was Brody No for a while lol. Name is crucial for recall, and that is something we work on several times a day because recall is the number one thing I want him excelling at. Granted I'm also a student, but I'm also 40 lol and have had dogs all my life, and even raised a couple humans. I promise there's plenty of balance between interactions around here.

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You might want to try a few classes just to see if you can find something you and Brody enjoy. My daughter is in a intermediate agility class (with a friend's dog, our BC is too young) and most of the people there will never make it past the intermediate level because it just isn't important to them. They are there to have fun with their dogs.

 

 

^This is important to realize.

 

I think a lot of people think agility has to be some huge thing, or takes the most special dog in the world, but absolute truth? I did classes with a 13lb fearful dog and she does fine. I'll probably get a title or two on her just playing around locally. You don't need to be massively competitive, your dog doesn't need to be an obedience champion, and you don't need to be able to go to Worlds to have a good time. Even the foundation classes are a TON of fun for you and the dog.

 

Agility is definitely on the list, I just thought it was supposed to wait until they were older and their joints were ready for it from lurking around these forums. I do want him to learn obedience first. That'll be starting in a couple weeks for him.

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You need to wait for them to be older to do anything with obstacles, but there are foundations classes designed for puppies. He's a bit young even for those, but teaching things like a 'get out' (going around a bucket in both directions and following hand cues to go left and right), running to a target on the ground to get a treat, recalling on your left and right -and working on your left and right in general- a 2 on 2 off with a plank that's flat on the ground, getting comfortable walking through a shortened tunnel, and basic things like sit-stay-down are all really gentle for puppies.

 

Any class that starts dogs on obstacles is a bad idea because of his joints but also just because agility foundations and moving and handling off leash are IMPORTANT.

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You need to wait for them to be older to do anything with obstacles, but there are foundations classes designed for puppies. He's a bit young even for those, but teaching things like a 'get out' (going around a bucket in both directions and following hand cues to go left and right), running to a target on the ground to get a treat, recalling on your left and right -and working on your left and right in general- a 2 on 2 off with a plank that's flat on the ground, getting comfortable walking through a shortened tunnel, and basic things like sit-stay-down are all really gentle for puppies.

 

Any class that starts dogs on obstacles is a bad idea because of his joints but also just because agility foundations and moving and handling off leash are IMPORTANT.

 

He still has another ~month before he can be out where other dogs have bbeen or will be anyhow. We actually have a dog park here with an agility playground, but until he has all of his shots including lepto and bordatella he isn't allowed to go there. So we'll focus on obedience and manners now and when he's all set on shots he can go from there. He can at least get used to seeing the stuff, and do the tunnel and lower impact things, and practic his stay etc.

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