BorderlineCollieaholic Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 After my BC was killed when my neighbor's Great Pyrenees got loose, I waited a long time to get another dog, and ended up getting a mixed breed someone else was rehoming just as a companion. To make a long story short I took her out with me to free-range the youngest chickens for the first time the other day (she had seen them before but they were always penned up) and the video records what happened. Is this herding behavior or just investigatory behavior? If she has herding potential I was going to take her to a few lessons as a herding dog would be so incredibly helpful around here. I just don't have the money to throw out the window if it's pointless (the closest trainers are all at least two hours from me on top of whatever the lesson costs and I'm in college) and am worried all that I'm seeing is just wishful thinking. '>Quenya "Herding" The Chickens - YouTube I apologize for this post not being directly BC related, I just remembered from when I did have Bandit how helpful and knowledgeable everyone was here and I couldn't find a forum appropriate for my question. I won't be making a practice of non-BC related posts and do hope to get another BC in the future. P.S. The video was originally shot just for friends so please ignore the "trying to be entertaining" comments I included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 It looks like play to me. That said, you can't always judge any future usefulness on just one exposure to stock, and how she behaves around chickens won't necessarily indicate how she'll be with other livestock. I couldn't watch the whole video because it locked up on my phone, but if she were my dog, I'd be watching carefully to make sure she didn't grab a chicken. ETA: I was finally able to see most of the video. I still think you won't really know anything until you try a few lessons at least. In my play comment I really meant that she doesn't appear to be trying to control them (and she's not a border collie, so not eyeing them doesn't mean she doesn't want to work/control them), but if it's all new to her, who knows? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 My first thought when I watched your video is that your dog looks very German Shepherdy. GSDs and border collies have very different working styles, and purposes for working. If it were me, I'd be looking for advice from someone who understands GSD working style rather than border collie. That said, it also seemed to me that she was very curious and interested, may have been showing some herding behaviors, but based on her tail it seemed to be a more playful encounter. But, I have no experience with working GSDs, so that may not be applicable to them in the same way as it is for border collies. Another thing to consider is that dogs can react differently to different kinds of livestock. I had one working border collie who was better on chickens than he was on sheep. My best sheepdog, OTOH, wasn't the least bit interested in working chickens. You've at least got interest. That's a start. (And she doesn't seem to want to eat them, which is also good.) But I do think you'd get better advice from someone more familiar with working GSDs. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossyOak Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 She does move more like a GSD and it certainly looks like prey drive rather than the gathering that a Border Collie wants to do instinctively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 love your choice of music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCollieaholic Posted April 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Thanks everyone! I'll try to find a GSD board where I can ask opinions. red russel: Thanks! It's from a movie sountrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Curious to know how you ascertained your mixed breed rescue has Kelpie lineage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Where is kelpie lineage mentioned? In the video? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Credits at the conclusion of the video…"Quenya the Kelpie mix". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Ah, I never made it that far on the video. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Hoping the OP will respond and especially if she has an enlightening and moreover, valid history on Quenya's origins. Being a rescue, the probability is slim to zero. No malevolent intent/hidden agenda from this quarter. I greatly appreciate reputable rescue organizations and those who support such endeavors. Unfortunately and with a few obvious exceptions, the vast majority of dogs with an unknown background wind up being labeled based on a preconceived notion of supposed behavioral and physical characteristics, Suffice it to say, while the practice is no doubt well intentioned, it ultimately does a grave injustice to all breeds and especially those with a long and venerable working history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 From the discussion here it sounds as if she agrees with the shepherd mix thing. ETA: I don't think that's a battle worth fighting. Rescues do the best they can. There may indeed be a valid reason the rescue labeled the dog as such, and the OP may know that reason (or not). I certainly didn't look at Quenya and think kelpie. I did think shepherd. Then again I had a working border collie in for training at one time that if AC had picked up they surely would have labeled a shepherd mix. I suppose some GSD afficianado could come along and state the same things you did, only in regard to someone labeling that dog a shepherd mix instead of a kelpie mix. To me it really doesn't matter. I guess I don't see people labeling mixes whatever they want as doing any great harm in the long run. People often come here and ask if we think their dog is a border collie. If it looks reasonably like a border collie, my standard answer is that I wouldn't dispute the claim if I met you in person and saw your dog. The only real way to maybe have an idea is to put it on stock and see if it seems like a border collie WRT stockwork. In all other cases, if it looks like a border collie, I don't care if people choose to call it that. Rescues are usually neutered, so it's not as if someone is randomly choosing a breed for their rescue so they can breed it or something. JMO. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCollieaholic Posted May 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 76 bar: I would have preferred you give some advice or opinion as to my original post along with your statement, as it does come across as slightly on the offense. I had a couple DNA tests done on her, though, and she came back on both with Kelpie ancestry. There is actually a breeder two hours away from me, and I live in farm-country so it's more plausible than one might usually think. Honestly, I choose that dog out of the others in her ancestry to call her a mix of because she looks most like one. I could call her one of the other three breeds she's mixed with, but in the end I may end up offending an owner of one of those breeds. I've personally met very few mixed breeds I would say did an injustice to any of their ancestors, working dogs or no =) I know Quenya is an excellent dog and I would certainly never portray her as a purebred of any breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 If you have breed information, it might actually help in determining what her working style should be, and where we could direct you for help as a result. If there's a kelpie breeder near you, wouldn't it make sense for you to contact that person for evaluation? Ditto if any of the other breeds you've discovered happen to be herding breeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 To reiterate, I made it abundantly clear that I support legitimate rescue programs. My only objection is the common practice of labeling a dog based as I noted, on supposed behavioral or physical qualities. As Julie stated, its undoubtedly a battle not worth fighting. BorderlineColliaholic: I'm puzzled as to how you concluded I was "coming across as slightly on the offensive." As you'll note in my post, I didn't in any way disparage you personally. Indeed, I indicated that I hoped you'd continue the dialog. Based on your recent post, it appears you misconstrued my comments and unfortunately interpreted them as a personal affront. That assuredly was not my intention. That aside, kudos to you for rescuing Quenya who appears to be a very happy and obedient young lady. Moreover, I encourage you share what you know of her history. Determining heritage by looks alone is problematic and can be extremely deceptive. A classic example was a dog consigned to the Red Bluff Bull sale many years ago. The breeder/consignor is nationally known for his cow working Border Collies. Will skip the details but can say with absolute veracity that the dog was sired by a Blk/Tan purebred working Kelpie (good one) and out of a rough coated, drop eared Red/White Border Collie bitch(equally good). The resulting dog was the spitting image of a working Kelpie complete with classical Blk/Tan markings, slick coat, and prick ears. Suffice it to say, I've a fair bit of experience with working Kelpies and had I not known his parentage, I would have assumed he was a purebred. It bears repeating that a great deal of advice and opinions garnered via the internet can at best be misleading and worse, extremely detrimental. That said, if you wish to ascertain if Quenya has livestock working potential it would be prudent to seek out an evaluation from a qualified and respected individual. Not incidentally, in spite of what you may have been led to believe, working Kelpies are not a rarity in USA and consequently find it odd that some think otherwise. Assuming that the breeder near you has working and not show Kelpies (akin to the working border collies v.s. show dogs) and is skilled at using them, its a good guess the breeder you mentioned would welcome a visit and moreover, the opportunity to demonstrate their dog's livestock handling skills. My experience with DNA testing has been exclusively to resolve sire parentage in cattle. Would appreciate knowing a bit more from you (or others)about the mechanics of how DNA testing discerns breed heritage in dogs, the reliability of the results and whether or not the Kelpie data base is all inclusive, i.e. includes both working and show Kelpies. Gonna make an exception to my personal policy of abstaining from internet advice. If I were in your shoes and for a variety of reasons I'd not allow Quenya access to chickens and especially poults as a vehicle to "test" her herding instincts." I'll leave it to Julie P. to elaborate further. Looking forward to your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 As far as DNA testing in dogs, it is extremely unreliable. Many times people with purebred dogs of known heritage have DNA tested their dogs for grins and found out that they had a "mixed breed." DNA tests look for breed traits and then assume what breed they come from, so breeds that have similar traits are often misidentified. And breeds that are bred to a working standard rather than a standard of physical characteristics are about impossible to identify correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Gideon's girll: Many thanks for your input. You've put a bee in my bonnet to further educate myself on this topic. The genomics company that I use to verify sires (I use multiple herd sires in my registered Red Angus & commercial program) provides a number of additional services including DNA dog heritage. Will definitely pursue this topic with them. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I imagine that in your program, you have sent them samples from your bulls, so they are making a direct comparison to a possible known parent, rather than just to a possible breed. That is like human DNA testing and is pretty accurate, as you know, but nothing like what they are doing trying to identify breeds. I have a Haflinger and they have to be DNA identified to be registered, fillies through their mother's line and colts through their father's line, also a pretty straightforward process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Waste of money for actually identifying breeds in a mix. Probably better off buying a lottery ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 GG…yes, I comprehend the difference between parentage vs heritage testing and you are correct, herd bull DNA profiles are on file with the company I use. Occasionally I have to submit samples (blood cards and/or tail hair follicles) on the dam of the calf in question as some of my bulls are closely related (full sibs or paternal and/or maternal half sibs). Appreciated your response and the Haflinger tidbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I knew you would completely understand, but felt that for others who might be following, some clarification might be necessary as to what the differences might be. Many people think DNA testing is DNA testing and that's all there is to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76 Bar Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 GG…did indeed. Thought your effort to clarify on behalf of those following the thread was very insightful and thoughtful. Regretful that the OP hasn't continued to respond and especially after my detailed post. C'est la vie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 We sent her to a German shepherd board. Why would she feel a need to respond here? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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