pingo Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Hi everyone! I am new to the forums and happy to see such a wealth of information on BCs on the intertubes. I had a smooth coat border collie that I got from a cattle ranch in Eastern Oregon. She passed away in 2011, but I was lucky to have her for 16.5 years. I am looking to adopt another smooth coat border collie pup sometime over the next year, to raise as a companion. We will do a lot of outdoor activities. I like the wipe-and-go smooth coat for convenience year round, but in my experience the short dense coat fares MUCH better than long hair when outside in snow. That can be as much as 2/3 of the year in Alaska, where I intend to move back in the future. I had an australian mix that had a light-density rough coat (she also passed in 2011 , at 13.5 years ) and she: became a silly morose soggy dog in the rain would get colder quicker in the winter than my smooth coat BC would accumulate pitiful hard snowballs on her underside unless she wore a jacket (she was not thrilled about that) endured me clipping her paw hair so snow didn't clump in between her toes, OR had to wear booties (THAT did not go over well), OR had to wear vaseline in between her toes (not fun for either of us) I loved my aussie and we managed her lustrous hair problem. However, I was thinking that perhaps I should avoid the whole snow/rain discomfort issue and stick to smooth coats in the future. I live in Seattle and I am wondering does anyone know of any breeders of smooth coat BCs within the Pacific Northwest? Thank you for your time, P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 We have a new pup from Spokane that is smooth coated and have seen many nice working dogs from your part of the country that are smooth coated so I would not expect it to be a hard request to fulfill. There is a trial coming up this weekend that is just over an hour from you, it would be a good place to go to see the dogs work and meet people. You may be able to find someone that has pups available soon or someone may be able to direct you to someone that has pups. 5/26/2013- 5/28/2013 MacDonald Memorial Day SDT Longbranch WA Sue MacDonald 253-884-2915 gmacdonald@harbornet.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Here are some nice looking dogs: http://pnwbcrescue.org/show_bio.php?ImageSize=2&DogId=3893&c=0 http://pnwbcrescue.org/show_bio.php?ImageSize=2&DogId=3814&c=0 http://pnwbcrescue.org/show_bio.php?ImageSize=2&DogId=3869&c=0 http://pnwbcrescue.org/show_bio.php?DogId=3900 In fact, I'm downright smitten with Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufftie Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 could you please ship billy here to West Virginia. he is just the dog I am looking for. a young male smoothie, split face agility prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Contact the rescue! Maybe transport could be worked out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Billy is a rough coat according to the link. He should come to me. Though I really should consider waiting a couple more years before adding BC #3. Two in two years has been a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I would not call Billy a rough coat. Medium-smooth at most, I'd probably just say smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 If you go by BCs only having 3 coat types; smooth, rough, and curly, then medium is rough even if it is like my 2 and relatively short and lies down flat. It is still not genetically smooth, but it is my favorite coat type. I think he is just gorgeous!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Genetically smooth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 a couple thoughts... it is unlikely you will "adopt" from a breeder. anyone i would be purchasing from wouldn't be a breeder of smooth coats. they would be a breeder of good working dogs and might have smooth coats available. given what you are looking for, the rescue dogs above are a wonderful opportunity. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Semantics. I will purchase a dog from a breeder. I was referring to the broader sense of my adopting a dog as a lifelong responsibility. I never meant to imply that someone would *only* breed smooth coat dogs. Of course I want a good dog, I'm just saying that I would like to get one with a smooth coat. I appreciate the rescue links, but as I said, I am looking for breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 We have a new pup from Spokane that is smooth coated and have seen many nice working dogs from your part of the country that are smooth coated so I would not expect it to be a hard request to fulfill. There is a trial coming up this weekend that is just over an hour from you, it would be a good place to go to see the dogs work and meet people. You may be able to find someone that has pups available soon or someone may be able to direct you to someone that has pups. 5/26/2013- 5/28/2013 MacDonald Memorial Day SDT Longbranch WA Sue MacDonald 253-884-2915 gmacdonald@harbornet.com Thank you for the tip! P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Genetically smooth? Yep, Gideon's coat lies down just as smooth as smooth can be, but it happens to be 6 inches long in places. Genetically, he is a rough coat, but he has very little undercoat so he looks pretty smooth. It is not the same thing as being a smooth coated BC. That is how Billy appears to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I don't know if it's a trait they got from their sheepdog ancestors, but if you breed a rough and a smooth (Lassie) collie together you will get roughs and smooths, but nothing in between. Roughs are long haired with tons of under coat, and smooths have a coat like Mia, the first of the dogs in PSmitty's post. (They also have a ton of undercoat.) I've never seen a (Lassie) collie with a medium coat, or what I call a "flat" coat, like the one that Gideon's Girl describes. My dog also has a "flat" coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Meh, I guess it's all semantics. And since border collies aren't *supposed* to be bred for looks, who really cares? (although I have a clear preference for smoothies) What one might call rough, another would call medium, or smooth, apparently. I think border collie coats can fall in all sort of "in betweens". This dog is adorable, period. Here Rufftie, more temptation... To the OP, good luck with your search. Since you're not open to rescues, I'd agree with what Dave said...A good breeder won't market their dogs based on coat type. So, find a good breeder and hope there are smooth coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Comment removed so I don't get yelled at for my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 sorry. just responding to what you wrote. didn't know that wasn't what you meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 P Smitty wrote: "Meh, I guess it's all semantics. And since border collies aren't *supposed* to be bred for looks, who really cares? (although I have a clear preference for smoothies) What one might call rough, another would call medium, or smooth, apparently. I think border collie coats can fall in all sort of "in betweens"." You're right, it doesn't matter, and Border Collies do in fact have a great variation in coat length, type and undercoat. It simply strikes me as interesting that a breed descended from the dog we now call a Border Collie, has only two types, and that the two when mated don't produce anything that would be called "in between." Semantics or no, it can be confusing to try and form an image in your head of a dog when there is no term commonly used for the kind of coat an individual has. So to me it is a lot simpler to say "flat coated" instead of "close-lying long hair without much undercoat, and having long tail and butt feathers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Comment removed so I don't get yelled at for my opinion. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 The literature I have read indicates that the smooth coat genetic variant is dominant, whereas the rough coat variant is homozygous recessive. It is like Geoni Banner said... if you only have genetic rough coats in a breeding program you will only breed rough coats--it is impossible to get a smooth coat from 2 rough coated parents. You can, however, get rough coats from two smooth coat parents (assuming they are heterozygous). You can see how this dominant/recessive coat gene plays out because of the abundance of rough coated BCs. If you have ever owned a smooth coat, you would experience the repeated crazy question/comments "What kind of dog is that?" and "Oh, I didn't know they could have short hair." I would speculate that density of coat, as well as lengths of rough coats can be explained how the allelic differences are expressed phenotypically, which could be an interaction between gene and environment. In any case, I am not looking for a dog that strikes my fancy in terms of looks! I'm looking for the (apparently harder to find) form of a BC coat that will better fit our lifestyle and environment over the next 15+ years. I don't think that's unreasonable. Was really hoping to not elicit any strong reactions like those I have read in the forums in previous posts where people get very judgmental about someone wanting a type of "look" in a BC, and the ensuing comments about how BCs are not bred for looks, etc. What I was hoping for was if someone had seen a breeder that had any smooth coats, they would refer me to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 P Smitty wrote: "Meh, I guess it's all semantics. And since border collies aren't *supposed* to be bred for looks, who really cares? (although I have a clear preference for smoothies) What one might call rough, another would call medium, or smooth, apparently. I think border collie coats can fall in all sort of "in betweens"." You're right, it doesn't matter, and Border Collies do in fact have a great variation in coat length, type and undercoat. It simply strikes me as interesting that a breed descended from the dog we now call a Border Collie, has only two types, and that the two when mated don't produce anything that would be called "in between." Semantics or no, it can be confusing to try and form an image in your head of a dog when there is no term commonly used for the kind of coat an individual has. So to me it is a lot simpler to say "flat coated" instead of "close-lying long hair without much undercoat, and having long tail and butt feathers." Isn't having no coat in between purely genetics? What would an in-between coat look like anyway? My understanding is that rough coated dogs have the two alleles for rough coat and smooth coated dogs have the allele(s) for smooth coat. There are variations in length because there are other factors but coat genetics isn't more varied because there haven't been any genetic mutations in BC coat that were later passed on to offspring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Let's not forget the genetics of the bearded coat, which also seems to be dominant (you can get bearded dogs when their genetic percentage is mostly border collie). For example, Polly Matzinger bred her smooth-coated Lily to her bearded James (who is something like 15/16 border collie, but is bearded) and got at least one bearded pup in the litter, with a longer coat just like his sire). I think there was at least one smooth coated pup as well, but could be wrong about that, as it wouldn't follow the dominant/recessive genetics of rough vs. smooth as we understand it. FWIW, I don't think people get as worked up about coat type because both rough and smooth dogs are pretty common, and there are plenty of excellent working smooth coats, so it's pretty easy to find a well-bred working dog that is also smooth coated. I prefer smooths because of the burrs in some of my pastures. They wipe right off my smooth coated dogs, but it can take quite a while to get burrs out of a rough coat.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Is the bearded coat in Border Collies a broken (wire) coat? In Dachshunds, wire is dominant to every other coat , but I do not know if it is an incomplete dominant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Pingo- Sorry for the hi-jack... But what do you make of these? I have 1 picture of what I would call a rough, two of what I would call in between or "flat", and one that I would consider a smooth. Would you be looking for a dog like the in between ones as well? Or only one like the last photo? ETA: I don't think I've ever seen a working Border Collie with a coat like the (Obviously conformation-type) one in the 1st picture. Too much hair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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