Question about power.

[Smalahundur]

I have had this question up in the expert section for a couple of days now, but it seems AJM is occupied at the moment so in the mean time I would like to hear opinions of other forum members on this problem, here follows the copied post plus an update:

 

My dog Gláma is now 2,5 years old. I got her when she was one year old, and starting training her right away. At her previous owner (a farmer) she hadn´t received any training.

 

She showed good promise pretty soon, she has a good feeling for pressure, very biddable, her outrun is fast and wide. At the moment she knows her flanks, and drives okay (especially taken into account she was trained by this newbie ;)/>/> )but we are still struggling with pace (when things are moving she likes them to move fast).

 

She took part in the annual round up of free range sheep last autumn, takes about two months and several trips to the surrounding hills. She did a fine job and saved me a lot of time, energy (and nerves!).

 

So I am very happy with this dog, on to the problem.

She is lacking in the power department. Understandably in the work during roundup,meeting single wily old ewes protecting their lambs, but I now started training after a winter-stop on a group of seven last years lambs, and a last year ´s whether.

 

These are non dogged sheep that should be pretty flighty on paper, but the moment one challenges Gláma (and the whether is especially bad I discovered today, so he won´t be in the trainings group anymore), her self confidence seems to crumble, she backs up, fueling the sheep´s courage. And especially if she has to move them against pressure (in this case draw of the stable)chances are pretty good they will march through her.

 

My policy during roundup was to ride as fast as possible to the rescue, helping her to move stubbern ewes.

Now in training I have tried to let her handle herself, works sometimes, sometimes she looses ( I am not always close enough to "rescue" her).

As she has a tendency to down in such a situation I have started (today actually) to teach her "stand" (tips on how would be welcome, I give her this command as urgent as I can followed by praise if she stands up).

Also I will remove the whether, I practiced a couple of days ago without him) coincidence) and that went fine.

Also I am trying close contact exercises in the stable under pretty high pressure, and I see improvement there (of course there I am near, probably boosting confidence).

 

What I would like to see is an honest nose grip to make the more difficult sheep see the error of their ways. A friend of mine just tried out his new pup (about seven months old) and that little fur ball has no trouble hitting a grown ewe on the nose if she disobeys (yes I am a bit jealous).

 

So my questions are

-Are there other methods, or exercises I can do with her to boost her confidence?

-In the description of what I am doing already do you see things I should do differently or not at all?

-Is it possible to teach such a dog a good grip (preferably nose grip) when she hasn´t shown any tendency to grip effectively. Only grips she has done are flie-by grips of already fleeing sheep in high pressure situations (nothing harsh and very seldom), she knows she is not allowed this.

 

Since I posted this first in the expert section, I diminished the group down to five yearlings, and of course removed the troublesome whether, this improved things considerably. There is the tendency to freeze up when Gláma is for instance holding the group against stronger pressure, like the stable draw, in my experience giving a flank gives a better chance of getting things going again than a "walk up".

Of course this doesn´t solve the described problem.

 

My wife watched last session, and her idea was (and I think there might be a lot to say for it) that it is a viscous circle, that has to do with wrong pace, meaning the sheep don´t trust themselves to turn away from the dog because then "the chase is on". They rather take their chances with a face off.

 

Okay I´ll stop here before this takes on the form of a book...

[juliepoudrier]

A couple of quick thoughts as I am on deadline.

 

1. If she is reluctant to engage with the sheep in close quarters (i.e., when the sheep turn to face her), see if you can set up a packed pen and work her in there. She can't get away, the sheep can't get away. It's a close space, so she will gain confidence from you being nearby. The sheep can't run, so they will have to deal with each other. You can encourage her to bite noses or heels as she moves around the small space and praise her every time she does that. Once she begins to realize that she can be in such close proximity and can control the situation and not get "run over" by the sheep, that new found confidence should translate to work in open areas. Sheep are good at reading intent, and if they realize that Glama will bite, then they will be less likely to challenge her in the first place.

 

2. It's true that if she's pushing too much the sheep may decide that it's not safe to turn and move away and so choose to stand and fight. The problem you have now is that at least some of the sheep have figured her out (that she will back off if challenged) and they will take advantage of that. I have a dog who likes to push and it does cause problems. For example, if a ram turns on him, he will bite its nose/head, but then instead of stopping there and giving the ram a chance to think and turn on its own, my dog will keep pushing, which gives the ram really no choice about turning, so instead he continues to face off the dog and all movement to where we're headed is with the ram backing up. If the dog stops and gives the ram a chance to think, the ram will turn and move off as he should. So yes, I agree with your wife that if Glama is being too pushy, she is likely setting up the confrontations that then stymie her.

 

FWIW, none of this may be a true lack of power, but rather a lack of confidence. If you can build Glama's confidence in dealing with sheep who turn on her, then she may well find it within herself to deal with the challenges in a positive way.

 

J.

[workindogs]

Yes, what Julie said....you can build confidence and this might help Glama.

 

Also, dogs can cause sheep to turn around to fight by "catching eye" or creeping around the shoulder to catch the eye of the sheep rather than pushing from behind at the butt or hip. Some dogs create the fight.

[red russel]

I have exactly what Elizabeth suggested. My main dog Cap is very strong but likes to catch a sheep's eye. It can either start a fight or cause a severe change of the packet's direction. As a handler we have to help our dog understand they can be further off and get better results. Hopefully the control will begin to feel good and the dog will begin to seek out the proper distance that allows both push and control. I don't profess to be an expert... After 5 years Cap and I are still working on it. Working with sheep that move off a dog easy is important. Working dogged sheep that require a nose up one of their butt's to move can be counter-productive.

dave

[Sue R]

My Dan has a great deal of presence and, if he would realize that he can readily influence and move stock from a distance, and would be willing to do just that, it would make things a whole lot easier for all concerned. Celt, who generally likes to work at a distance, does not have the presence or confidence to make that effective sometimes. There is so much to consider with these dogs and the various stock types.

[TEC]

...As she has a tendency to down in such a situation I have started (today actually) to teach her "stand" (tips on how would be welcome, I give her this command as urgent as I can followed by praise if she stands up...

 

 

As you know, a dog in a standing position has more presence than when in a down. Clearly, there are times when each command is needed.

 

No doubt many ways to teach a stand. I thought back how Josie was trained. As I recall, had her lie down, and asked her "on-your-feet" in an excited voice. There was a time as a puppy that the command would bring her to her feet in one abrupt jumping motion. She's in a down; she's standing on all fours, and nothing in between Darn, I wish the reverse, from standing to down, was that quick Anyway, from a stand I had her "stay" as I moved about the room/area, which transitioned, to simply "stand". Good exercise: off-sheep, from a walk/trot, asking for a "stand".

 

So, my "on your feet" cue is separate from "stand". One means get-up. The other means hold-in-place. For Josie, I don't often have to use "on-your-feet", as down is not her default stop. With her medium eye, a stand works well for her primary stop.

 

How is it coming with Gla'ma? Are those ornery ewes beginning to turn away from her? I am confident she can show more assertiveness. As you mentioned, little flank commands (left,right, back to left), rather than just walk-up, can be disconcerting to stock, and get them to stop eyeing her, and begin to turn. -- Best wishes, TEC

[Smalahundur]

Everybody thanks for the replies, and insights.

Sadly since posted we have not been able to train, a combination of a spell of bad weather, and an influenza attack that hit this family hard (all four of us went "down" ). Anyway we are all on our way to recovery, and training will be turned up a notch because I heard there will be held a trial near here sometime end of march (that is pretty soon, Icelanders are not known for planning very far ahead).

That would be our "first time at the post", I will keep you posted...

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

Not all dogs are born with power. It never develops sufficiently in some, and occasionally a dog may "grow" power as it matures, depending on how they're handled. For me, "how they're handled" is the key.

 

So, if my youngster is cautious, hesitant, or downright afraid at any point while he's working, I help it. In other words, I go straight to the dog and aid him in whatever he's failing at, and I do that until he becomes confident and doesn't need me, or until I decide power is not within him.

 

You say you did that on your round up of free sheep, then quit and let her figure it out on her own. Keep helping her. If she's giving up and lying down when the going gets tough, she still requires assistance. I set up exercises that stimulate courage while I'm still helping the dog find power.

 

I set a gate to open when sheep bump it. Then with me helping the dog, we drive them through it. When that gate opens and the sheep move through, I step back and let the dog enjoy its' success whatever happens next. Usually they head them and bring them back, so I set it up again. Gradually, I make the gate harder to open and keep working at it until the dog doesn't need me.

 

I will help a dog load sheep in a trailer or pen, and then help them go in and bring them back out. Similar to the gate exercise, it's fun and exciting for the dog and you can see their confidence grow. With a weak dog, I sometimes teach them to shed. Holding sheep that are trying to break creates excitement. When work is fun and exciting, courage is easier to find.

 

I suggest putting a grip command on your dog. The ability to grip on command may not help her over all power, but at least you may have a way to accomplish a day's work.

 

I suggest using sheep appropriate to the dog's ability. If yours are sour or worn out, they'll not help your dog in the power department. Get some fresh sheep and be ready to help.

 

Good luck

 

 

[Smalahundur]

Thank you Amelia for your thoughtful, and helpful post.

 

Yes, I said in the round up, hill work, I helped my dog and I now try to let her "hang in there" a bit more now, but that is in a controlled training situation with the training group, not the hill work with unknown sheep.

And I still go and help if I feel she can´t do it.

 

I am using very fresh sheep now, "gemlingar" as the Icelanders call yearlings. Before we started the only time they have seen a dog is when they came home with mamma last fall. I stopped using that year old wether, he might join the group again when the others become more dogged (and I´d feel we need a challenge...).

 

I noticed Gláma starts to understand the command "stand" and that helps a lot.

I let her face the sheep a little while when they refuse to lift, and as soon as I see a couple of the sheep (usually in the back of the group) get a bit restless, head turning etc I give a flank, or even two or three opposite flanks causing Gláma to zig zag in front of the sheep. This has the effect the sheep loose their cool, start to move and the spell is broken.

 

Another very positive point is that we are making good progress with close contact work in the stable. I don´t have to be near her anymore (two weeks ago i had to lead her in), she courageously moves between training group and wall (they stand in a dead end) and brings them to me to drive them out of the building.

 

Off course I realize a big factor in this, is that this fresh group is in the proces of getting dogged, but hey, it is Gláma that is dogging them and my girl is clearly winning, I feel her confidence grows day by day.

 

I also feel I have been too hesitant/lenient in correcting hard enough when she blows me off (which she used to do now and again on "down" and very often on "steady").

My wife looked at a training session and when I asked her what she thought, her dry german comment was "Sie tanzt dich auf die Nase rum", which means literally "she is dancing on your nose", uhm, making a fool of you that is.

 

And she was right, in my fear for destroying her confidence I had really let the obedience slip, too much. So the last sessions I demanded more obedience on those commands (she knows them well enough), and things went a lot better. It has no effect (or if anything a positive one) on her confidence when she is made to obey, even when this means slamming the crook on the ground, or running towards her enforcing the ignored command.

We have made progress in pace because the steady command is more respected Though I do feel a bit of an idiot when I have to bark it, especially as the icelandic command for steady is "rolega", meaning "calm"; it doesn´t feel very calming screaming it like I do (but at least it works)...

 

Another part of the problem I had not realized well enough is that due to conditions (ice, snow) on the training field we have been forced to train near the stables, which present a very strong draw to the sheep. Gláma is pretty pressure sensitive, and i think this has also contributed to the stuckness.

But I checked the training grounds, and it looks okay, we´ll do a session there tommorow.

 

Amelia, you suggest to put a grip command on the dog. What is your preferred method for doing that? Are you working with stuff like tugging toys and then expanding to sheep? I´d love to hear your suggestions.