Maja Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I am curious about the beginnings of great dogs. What were they like? Those that went on to win big time, what were they like when they were just staring sheep working? Do you know any beginnings of great dogs? Where they precocious? Were they write-offs that the right person picked up and brought to a supreme champion? Were they geniuses? Maybe sheep biting disasters at first? Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithydog Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Interesting topic! I have a Bobby Dalziel's Wisp grandson so when I got the opportunity to chat with a well respected handler who knows Bobby and knew Wisp (Wisp was the 1989 and 1992 Intl Supreme Champion) I asked a ton of questions about him. Much to my surprise, I learned that Bobby was Wisp's 3rd or 4th owner. Wisp's prior handlers/owners were unable to control Wisp on the field; he was apparently a very bull-headed dog that had been known to take down sheep on a regular basis. I guess Wisp had all the makings of a winner and Bobby could see it, it just took a special, talented individual and excellent handling to bring the winning qualities out in the dog. Wisp is one of very few dogs to have won the Int'l Supreme Championship twice. He is also a split-face, super fuzzy dog with a lot of white on him - shows that dogs with lots of white shouldn't be discriminated against because of the color of their fur! Another famous dog is Bobby Henderson's Sweep - an Int'l Supreme Champion in 1998. I have heard that Sweep had a real a gripping/tearing problem with sheep and could be a bit of a hot-head. I had heard a rumor too about Sweep having his teeth filed down when imported to the States (because of the gripping problem) but I am not sure that is true - sounds a little hokey to me. Regardless, in the right hands, Sweep was a superb dog. Like Wisp, Sweep has sired a lot of excellent working and trial dogs over the years who have in turn sired a lot of excellent dogs. My new pup has Wisp double-bred on the top and Sweep on both his top and bottom. Needless to say, I am getting help with this pup's training from well respected handlers! It seems the dogs who are the most challenging to get a hold of end up being excellent working and trial dogs - winning dogs all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I've definitely heard some stories about Wisp that would make me think very carefully about buying a pup double bred on him. I know of a nursery champ that wasn't ready to start until nearly 2 yrs old. Once he decided he was ready he trained up very fast. One well respected dog in the USA changed hands many times before he clicked with one man. From what I hear, he was also a very tough dog to handle, but he moved sheep and cattle with confident and power. For me, all the stories drive home a few key points... 1) no dog is perfect and 2) the fit between dog and handler is just as critical as the quality of the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 1) no dog is perfect and 2) the fit between dog and handler is just as critical as the quality of the dog Aint that the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I'd be interested to hear more about what Tommy Wilson's Sly was like as a youngster. I've seen her out west and think she and Tommy are absolutely marvelous. But I recall hearing something like "wanted to kill sheep...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I've definitely heard some stories about Wisp that would make me think very carefully about buying a pup double bred on him. My oldest bitch, Riddle, is the daughter of a bitch, Lucky, who was line bred Wisp on both sides. Lucky was a really tough girl who could move anything. She also had a way of occasionally losing patience with stock and biting really HARD. I now have three generations of these girls (Riddle and her daughters and granddaughters), and they can all be pretty tough on sheep, especially when they are young. Raskle, the Landshark (now almost 3) has a great deal of her grandmother in her. She has never been a dog for the feint of heart, and most days, would still rather take a sheep down than work it nicely! But then again, she is also the 2011 Reserve Champion Nursery Cattle dog, A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Very interesting input! For me, all the stories drive home a few key points... 1) no dog is perfect and 2) the fit between dog and handler is just as critical as the quality of the dog I agree. So we've got: -the quality of the dog -the quality of the handler -the fit between these two. And I think this is what makes the breeding so difficult. Since only the first is genes. I asked this question, because recently I had a discussion about what makes a tough sheep dog with friends who are of the opinion that a tough dog that is not given to biting and is very biddable does not exist. The example was given of Dewi Tweed who supposedly was very aggressive towards the sheep and then of course became supreme champion. My answer was this: Excessive biting for whatever reason is a fault, but the owner of this dog obviously saw that the dog had other qualities absolutely superior in nature that made it worthwhile to spend the extra time eliminating the problem of biting. But it would make no sense to choose a biting dog (e.g. a pup out of a litter), just because it bites in the hope that the other desirable features will be also present. So we agreed to disagree and we shall pit against each other's breeding and training practices in the future with great pleasure. But I have been thinking about it. My ideal of a sheepdog, is a dog with strong drives both to work sheep and to work with a human. It's a dog that is tough a dog that matures into grip and uses it sparingly and only when necessary. A dog whose eye is not a bluff, hence it uses the eye as a fair warning most often without having to go any further, for this dog does not give in. And it's a dog with a superior sheep sense. Obviously I don't own such a dog (yet). But I was thinking, is my thinking wrong? So I thought I'd ask here. A dog that flanks as a pup, keeps distance and does not bite, would there be a wimp in her? Would a dog that blows the flock and bites hard be better by definition? These stories you've told me, are they exception or the rule? Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 I find these stories quite interesting. Kipp is a bit of a landshark and quite a handful for me to work. His grandfather was imported and then went through about six different homes because he was a lot of dog to handle. But even with his landshark mouth he is biddable and willing to be a team player. There is a lot that I like in him even though he is kind of a hard dog for a novice like me. But maybe I'd change my mind if I had an easier dog without the landshark tendancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 That's a load of you know what. There are absolutely dogs out ther with "quiet power," and they are a joy to work. Most gripping is done because of a lack of confidence, tension or frustration. Young dogs can be expected to do some gripping, but I don't think you can judge their power or lack of power until you have tested them in a variety of situations. Everyone will find a certain type of dog that suits them. That same type of dog may be someone else's idea of a nightmare. The very few elite handlers can get the most out of any dog of quality, but most of us need to find the right fit in order to have success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 ....So I thought I'd ask here. A dog that flanks as a pup, keeps distance and does not bite, would there be a wimp in her? Would a dog that blows the flock and bites hard be better by definition? These stories you've told me, are they exception or the rule? Maja This is a very interesting and enjoyable thread to read! Thank you, Maja, for sparking this discussion. To offer my (very humble) response to your questions above, I'll say this. My boy Nick is a flanking dog with a lot of eye, and he runs very wide. I don't recall him biting as a youngster, at all. But ... he's in no way a wimp. If a sheep turns on him or tries to run over him, he has absolutely no fear of coming right up to meet her with a mouth full of teeth. For a guy who's just past 3 years old, I think he's pretty brave. But as a general rule, he's the inexorable force that just keeps coming and he doesn't employ a bite unless it's needed. I could not be more pleased with his "quiet power" if I'd custom ordered the kit, and I know as he gets older he'll just get better. Now, his sister Gael was more of an anxious biter when I first started her. She's just a twittery, silly little gal. But now she runs wide and keeps a nice distance, and I had actually begun to think her a bit soft.Until recently ... and now I see what when a sheep tries to through her, she snaps off these cutting horse moves that are almost too fast to see, and that's the end of that. Sheep goes back to the flock and behaves itself. And again, I don't worry about her and incorrect bites. At most, if she forgets and slices a flank, she just grabs air as she goes by. It's excitement, now, not anxiety, and since she's not yet 2 -1/2, I feel she's getting braver as she matures. So, I'd say the stories are generalizations that may hold true for some dogs, but certainly not for all. I do think however, the fit of handler to dog is very, very important. Some people out there are good enough to handle and understand pretty much any dog that comes their way, and they are the truly greats. But for me, my Nick is the perfect fit. I don't know what I'd do with a harder, more bull-headed and hard-natured dog. And little Gael is starting to show me that she and I might make another good team. It does make me wonder, though, how many of those great dogs of old became great simply because they came to the right person's hands And how many dogs might miss their chance at greatness because the right person never crossed their path. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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