kelpiegirl Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Okay, gotta know. How do you stop the sheep from stepping on your toes?? I am *real* sick of getting my tootsies flattened. I was wondering the other day, why do I have bruises on my toes.... Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Your dog is bringing them too close! Okay, sorry, someone had to be a smart aleck and since I have a headache I thought I'd volunteer. Karen showed me a trick to get some distance on really dogged sheep (mine don't step on toes as they aren't worked that much in little groups). You turn, then take your stick and wave it really hard at the lead sheep before it has the chance to "follow" you around the turn. If your dog is correct on the flank, there should be a second while the dog comes around to the headsm that allows to to step back. Then just don't let your dog close that room again. Speak to him, wave the stick, whatever it takes to get your dog's attention then go on as soon as he pauses. If the sheep aren't giving him a chance to pause, try turning again. You may have to even tap the nose of the sheep but make sure it's OK with the person who owns the sheep! Do figure eights until your dog is comfortable pacing the sheep instead of pushing them right over you. There's still times when you can't avoid getting toes stepped on (gate sorting, doing chores like worming or vaccinating), so you might want to invest in a nice pair of sturdy work boots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Aaaahhh if it were ONLY that easy. First, these sheep PREFER to be just past me. Second I have a pup who LOVES heads. Third, if I speed up too much, so that the young dog is okay with not pushing them up, the sheep move faster, and the dog moves faster, and the sheep move faster... well, you get the picture. Basically, I have to almost be 1/2 way down the sheep's back to get her off. Now, once I get her off, she will stay there for a bit. We are just new at this, and things get better, but I just thought maybe there were something like steel toes sheep boots? The dang things also don't like to leave me room to get her off them, that is, they don't want to let me get between them. I figure all of this has to be making me a better handler Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 While I generally agree with what Becca says on the subject, I'd also add that if your sheep are walking over the top of you, you need to be training on different sheep. You can't train a dog on knee-knockers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 If you must use those sheep, invest in a nice pair of steel-toe boots. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Exactly what ARE knee knockers?? These sheep are good flockers, but they aren't slow calm sheeps. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Kneeknockers are sheep that are so dog-broke that they go to the handler pretty much no matter what and cling there (basically for protection from the dog), hence they are always knocking into your knees.... Such sheep might be useful in the very beginning stages of training, but I feel like Bill does--the sooner you move on to sheep that act like real sheep, the better. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy H. Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Originally posted by kelpiegirl:Exactly what ARE knee knockers?? These sheep are good flockers, but they aren't slow calm sheeps. Julie I don't post often but did happen to see this. It is hard to know what's happening from the info provided so take this with the proverbial cup of salt ... just some ideas that you might want to think about (or not!)--consider the source always =get some steel toed boots... there are some Muck Boots with reinforced toes and that does help. If nothing else, you quit worrying so much about your toes and can think more clearly. =for a while, think about your own placement and don't worry about the dog as much. Until you can keep yourself from getting trapped in sheep, you can't do much. Your job is NOT to get trapped by sheep. Go "where there are no sheep" even if that means stopping and letting the sheep flow around you so you're at the other end. Don't try to outrun the sheep and dog (usually just makes things worse). And don't step back toward sheep (I see lots of people do this all the time.... they actually step into the sheep.... step out and away from the sheep.... ). As I was told long ago when I asked the same question: You cannot train a dog/work sheep if you are one of the sheep and if you are in the middle of the sheep all the time, then, to the dog you are one of the sheep and the dog is working you. Plus there is no way you can help the dog learn things from the middle of sheep and it's downright dangerous. Personally, if I'm stuck with a novice dog and knee knocker type sheep, I avoid doing a lot of fetching/walk abouts since I don't think it teaches the dog (or the sheep) anything. In fact, I work at teaching the sheep that they don't need to be knee-knockers (not easy!) Instead I first work at getting the sheep, the dog and me in work mode (calm, sheep controlled and basically standing around out in the middle) and then I work toward what Derek Scrimgeour recommends: "a small outrun, a nice flank, a little drive, a good stop and a little drive. Then walk away with the dog and do another outrun...." p. 43 of his book... which does presuppose the preceding pages The little outrun part is where the dog is learning to "present" the sheep to you.... several feet in front of you in fact. I know this begs the question of how to do all the above but that depends so much on the situation that I think you have to "be there" to offer any constructive ideas! Hope this helps some.... Kathy/Iowa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 hi According to the definition, I would say that these sheep aren't really knee knockers then. They prefer NOT to be with me, and when they are, they are always going past me. They are most definitely not glued to me. I have a pushy young dog, who still has to learn to work WITH me, more than "around" me. We are working on things like down both off and on the draw, small fetches, and just recently, we are able to have me be able to walk off from the sheep, then ask the dog to walk up- which she will do- calmly, and isn't running to get to the head. I do have the option of working with other sheep, and will, but we have made good progress thus far, so I want to build on that. Thanks so much- I will keep you posted. Maybe our progress will be defined by not getting smashed toes? Oh, one more question- Can someone elaborate on how "real sheep" act? I am thinking sheep that prefer not to be gathered, and will split off, and prefer being away from the human? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitch Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Julie, I had the same problem when I started with those sheep. It gets better the more confident your dog gets. Your dog is *really* quick and that tends to cause the sheep to plow through you. They are still like that for the first few runs with Dublin until he settles in a bit. Now I can walk off the sheep and do some mini-outruns, etc. Worse than crushed toes, IMO, is when two sheep decide to stay glued to you. I had 2 "fluffy" sheep cling to me at one point, pushing in so hard that their wool touched on either side of me - effectively immobilizing me. Nothing scarier than a novice dog trying his damndest to bring the rest of the flock to you (aka over the top of you) and being unable to move your legs!! :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Yeah kitch- I was thinking it had something to do with her being a "bit" fast.... I think they are a bit nervous, because once I DO get her off them, they leave me some room- almost TOO much, as Lucy gets into hurry mode. I have seen knee knockers at AKC trials where the sheep are glued to the handler, who walks around and the sheep are like puppy dogs. Somehow, these sheep don't resemble that description eh? julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitch Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Yeah, I wouldn't call them knee-knocker sheep. They don't view the handler as someone to follow, more like an obstacle to plow through! (He also rotates them through with the flock down the road and every once in a while he gets an ornery one who likes to head for the hills. Dublin could probably handle it now, but last year when he was new at this, it fried his poor brain. Nothing like a sheep without an urge to flock!) BTW, I might be out there on Tues, depending on his schedule. Are you planning on being out there this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Yeah, that's right- plow through... Lucy unsettles them, until I settle her... The last two lessons we HAD the head for the hills sheep. This has been a good thing for Lucy, she has to use her brain, and in the end we have the sheep back together, and a dog more careful about the group, not one. Yes, planning on heading up there next week Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy V Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 FWIW.. One time, I witnessed Alasdair training a young dog in a round pen with sheep that were plowing into his knees and on his toes. He grabbed a sheep head and twisted it down and backward toward it's flank, forcing it to the ground. It was quick, painless, and impressively effective in changing the sheep's behavior. No more squashed toes and bumped knees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Hi Wendy Our most recent lesson, things were better, because a) was keeping her off the sheep, and the foam rubber toy bumped on their heads keeps them from plowing into me. I think I was only stepped on three times! Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Mark wrote pair of steel-toe boots.Mark I have a great pair of men's titanium toe boots from Timberline, very light weight, very comfortable. Problem is, if using them for kneeknocker sheep, you don't know that the sheep have stepped on you! I've acutally fallen because the sheep are standing on my foot and I don't know it, and I try and move and find out my foot is anchored to the ground by the sheep! Nancy O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Nancy, There's always Donald's foot wear choice if you must know when knee knockers are standing on your foot. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 I've acutally fallen because the sheep are standing on my foot and I don't know it, and I try and move and find out my foot is anchored to the ground by the sheep!I've not only done that, but I've also fallen even when I knew they were standing on my foot. I apparently need some butt-bumpers or something, since I spend so much time on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 I spend a lot of time wading in sheep-and I definately can attest to the steel toe boot being MY best friend. I endorse my paddock boots by Mountain Horse, a pull on with side elastics that are real comfy, but in mud, the Muck Chore boot is nice. As for kneeknockers, better woolies than hair. They feel better while running over you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 I've found steel toe boots to be quite cold in the winter. My muck boots seem to protect my toes pretty good. When sheep are headed in my direction and looks like they're going to go over the top of me...besides letting the dog know it's not ok, I've found that if I wiggle my hands/fingers while they're down at my sides (sheep head height) they will veer around me. It's not a big movement all in the fingers. Doesn't help at the gate or other places that there's no room to get out of the way but will help in the field. Maybe I'm buying the wrong steel toe boots? Cheers Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Muck chores all the way. There are more comfortable shoes in the world but when it comes to mud and cold, they are unbeatable. I and my croc shoes are inseperable now so most of the time I wear those. But I sure know when I've been stepped on! I really hate knee knockers but I've gotten to appreciate a good dog broke sheep to start pups on. They don't need them long but it makes a huge difference those first few times helping the young dog "get it". The best money I spent this summer (well, except maybe the elctronet) was the puppy sheep I got from Robin! And I'm getting some more for the clinic, so we'll have four full sets for the round pen. And don't worry Laura, for the clinic we'll put Friendly out in the field with the pregnant ewes! She's looking much better this morning, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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