Using a long line

[Daniel King]

I have heard several good handlers talk of the advantages of using a long line for training.

I would like to try it on my dogs for training driving, pace, squaring, communication etc.. I would dearly appreciate hearing general comments/techniques/advice from those of you familiar with the long line. i.e. anything from length of line,tension, when to take them off, to Bob Dalziel's methods etc..??

 

Thanks!

[Pipedream Farm]

Hi Dan. I have used a long line for squaring flanks while driving. What works best for me is to use a fairly settled group of sheep that will move readily from the dog, but not run like crazy. I use a different command for a really square flank as opposed to a normal flank (come out and away back). Hold the line lightly and as you give the command, pull the rope straight out from your side. Use a steady pressure, but don't jerk the dog. As soon as you see the dog on the correct path, release the rope. I know Mark's used the rope to settle Jody down driving, maybe he'll write too.

Renee

[Pipedream Farm]

Be sure to wear a pair of gloves while doing this or you could be in for a major case of rope burn! You also may want to let the dog work the sheep for a bit while dragging the rope, just so it gets used to the feel of it.

Renee

[Valhalla]

I don't use a long line to square flanks, but I do use one to teach a dog to steady their pace. I just lightly hold the line, with enough slack so that the dog can get ahead of me. I have the dog walk behind the sheep. As they pick up pace, I say "steady" or "time" and if they don't drop down their speed a little, I'll give a light tug on the rope and say the command again. I also use a very light line so the weight of the line is not holding the dog back when I let it drag. You want it long enough to let the dog get some distance from you, but not too long than it'll tangle or get caught in things.

 

And Renee's tip to wear gloves is a great one.

[Pipedream Farm]

As Renee indicated I've used the line on Jody. She likes to drift up the side of the sheep while driving (heading) and for a while was slicing in front of the sheep while driving. The long line allowed me to correct the slicing as it started and allowed me to remind her to not drift up their sides (stop the heading).

 

Mark

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Daniel King:

I have heard several good handlers talk of the advantages of using a long line for training.

I would like to try it on my dogs for training driving, pace, squaring, communication etc.. I would dearly appreciate hearing general comments/techniques/advice from those of you familiar with the long line. i.e. anything from length of line,tension, when to take them off, to Bob Dalziel's methods etc..??

 

Thanks!

I guess I would have to address a training philosophy question here. Why would you want to mechanically (the rope) MAKE your dog square his flanks instead of helping him learn how to do it through allowing him to flank, and then correcting him if he did it wrong? How do we know he did it wrong? By the reaction of the sheep. These dogs learn an awful lot by being given the freedom to work, but being corrected verbally, or by body position, or by a wave of a hat, or some such effort on the handler's part, when they don't do it right. Besides, in my opinion, EVERY flank doesn't need to be "square". To me, having to use a long line for this means that some foundation work on pace, the down, listening to his name and how it is said, has been neglected. Maybe you are starting to expect too much from him too soon. The dog needs to learn to feel what he is doing to the sheep. Once again my opinion, but pulling him on a rope to get the flank doesn't contribute to his learning to "feel" his sheep. It smacks of trying to find a shortcut to get the desired flank. Same thing with pace. Using that line is not giving the dog his sheep. He knows ALL THE TIME that it is on him. Giving the dog the freedom to work, and then correcting mistakes verbally, or with body language, strikes me as a better way to acheive the goal. As some old hands used to say, only somewhat paraphrased, anyone can do it, it just takes time. There aren't any shortcuts.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

These dogs learn an awful lot by being given the freedom to work, but being corrected verbally, or by body position, or by a wave of a hat, or some such effort on the handler's part, when they don't do it right.

I view the long line and just another tool to try when other forms of correction have failed to have the desired effect. It may work, it may not; it probably won't have the desired effect on all dogs. I wouldn't use the rope to form the shape of the flanks, only correct when they don't choose on their own the correct shape (for the situation and sheep at hand) and you get to make the correction from a true driving position (handler behind dog).

 

Mark

[Denise Wall]

GR,

 

I hear ya. I used to completely subscribe to this way of thinking. However. I now believe that sometimes dogs need a different kind of help getting in touch with their inner "feel" for stock for whatever reason (tension, overkeenness, etc.). Sometimes they truly want stock to be calmer and more in control but don't know how to get things to that point. And sometimes, for whatever reason, verbal correction, body position, wave of the hat, etc., doesn't help them find that place.

 

If it can be used calmly, and allow the dog to still be thinking when they are put in the right place or pace to control the stock correctly, then the dog may feel the correctness of that and understand how to get there on its own. I guess the crucial thing would be if you, the handler, knows where to put them and then when to get out of the dog's way and let it try on its own.

 

That said, I don't recall using a long line on young dogs, only trained ones, and even then not often. I wouldn't hesitate to try it though if it seemed like what I was doing wasn't working. JMHO.

 

Regarding square flanks: Years ago when I was starting my first open dogs, a very wise Irishman by the name of Simon Mosse told me not to worry about what my dogs' flanks "looked" like, just watch the sheep to see if they were flanking correctly because good flanks aren't a certain shape, they're the pressure those particular sheep need at that given moment.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Denise Wall:

Regarding square flanks: Years ago when I was starting my first open dogs, a very wise Irishman by the name of Simon Mosse told me not to worry about what my dogs' flanks "looked" like, just watch the sheep to see if they were flanking correctly because good flanks aren't a certain shape, they're the pressure those particular sheep need at that given moment.

Well said, I guess I/we have fallen into the same old trap of using a term that can have different meanings. In our uses of the long line, the sheep were being adversely affected by the dog's path.

 

Mark

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Daniel King:

I have heard several good handlers talk of the advantages of using a long line for training.

I would like to try it on my dogs for training driving, pace, squaring, communication etc.. I would dearly appreciate hearing general comments/techniques/advice from those of you familiar with the long line. i.e. anything from length of line,tension, when to take them off, to Bob Dalziel's methods etc..??

 

Thanks!

Not trying to start an argument here, but you mentioned Bobby Dalziel, making me think you have been to one of his clinics. Think about probably the top four trainers of Border Collies we see in this country: Jack Knox, Kathy Knox, Bobby Dalziel and Bruce Fogt. In two cases, I know, and in the other two, I'm reasonably sure, you will never see a long line on a dog after it has progressed to the point of having a down and a recall. I also know, that we are not all trainers approaching their caliber, but we never will be if we use the long line when it isn't necessary. I can't say it will NEVER be necessary, but past that training plateau, down and recall, a long line should be necessary only in the absolute rarest of cases, if then.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Denise Wall:

GR,

 

I hear ya. I used to completely subscribe to this way of thinking. However. I now believe that sometimes dogs need a different kind of help getting in touch with their inner "feel" for stock for whatever reason (tension, overkeenness, etc.). Sometimes they truly want stock to be calmer and more in control but don't know how to get things to that point. And sometimes, for whatever reason, verbal correction, body position, wave of the hat, etc., doesn't help them find that place.

 

If it can be used calmly, and allow the dog to still be thinking when they are put in the right place or pace to control the stock correctly, then the dog may feel the correctness of that and understand how to get there on its own. I guess the crucial thing would be if you, the handler, knows where to put them and then when to get out of the dog's way and let it try on its own.

 

Regarding square flanks: Years ago when I was starting my first open dogs, a very wise Irishman by the name of Simon Mosse told me not to worry about what my dogs' flanks "looked" like, just watch the sheep to see if they were flanking correctly because good flanks aren't a certain shape, they're the pressure those particular sheep need at that given moment.

Sounds reasonable, but like you said, sometimes, and now with trained dogs. The gentleman who asked the question, and I hope I don't step on his toes or assume incorrectly, doesn't sound as if he is highly experienced at this. I also don't know his goals, whether they be to run in Nursery at 14 months old or wind up with the best the dog can be when he finally has to "hang up his spurs", but to reinforce the use of the long line for such basics as communication, pace, driving, flanking, squaring the flank seems to lead us down the wrong path to training these dogs.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by GR:

Not trying to start an argument here, but you mentioned Bobby Dalziel, making me think you have been to one of his clinics. Think about probably the top four trainers of Border Collies we see in this country: Jack Knox, Kathy Knox, Bobby Dalziel and Bruce Fogt.

So what you are suggesting is that after attending one of their clinics and after they showed you this technique to help correct a problem you were having with your dog at that time; their advice should be ignored because what they taught was not the proper way to train a border collie.

 

If we are not going to follow the advice and training techniques they teach in their clinics; why go and pay for their advice?

 

But, everone is entitled to their own opinion on what is the best way to train their dogs.

 

Mark

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

Originally posted by GR:

Not trying to start an argument here, but you mentioned Bobby Dalziel, making me think you have been to one of his clinics. Think about probably the top four trainers of Border Collies we see in this country: Jack Knox, Kathy Knox, Bobby Dalziel and Bruce Fogt.

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

So what you are suggesting is that after attending one of their clinics and after they showed you this technique to help correct a problem you were having with your dog at that time; their advice should be ignored because what they taught was not the proper way to train a border collie.

I don't think I suggested that at all. Quite the contrary, I THINK I suggested FOLLOWING their philosophy on training. Can you tell me these trainers regularly use a long line to help with teaching "...dogs for training driving, pace, squaring, communication etc.. ", when past the initial down and recall training, as the poster asked? If so, then I will stand corrected.

 

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

If we are not going to follow the advice and training techniques they teach in their clinics; why go and pay for their advice?

I agree whole-heartedly!

 

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

But, everone is entitled to their own opinion on what is the best way to train their dogs.

Absolutely. Someone coming here looking for suggestions is also entitled to more than one approach, don't you think?

 

 

I'm sorry, but I do not understand AT ALL what you are saying in this post. Maybe it's just me. Unless, the original poster came to a clinic you gave (I don't know if you give clinics, or not), where you used that technique to help him with flanks. It sounds as if nobody has ever disagreed with anything you have ever said, but, I assure you, no ill will is intended.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

I have been told by several people (who I trust) who have attended clinics or had private lessons that the long line technique is used regularly by Bobby D. to correct the situations (incorrect flanks, pace, starting driving, etc.) described in the earlier posts.

 

I suspect (but don't know this for certain) this is being used and taught to avoid teaching the bump & flank type driving but to teach driving with the dog always in contact with the sheep.

 

Mark

[Valhalla]

I have taken lessons with Bobby D. He does use the long line on dogs in all stages of their training.

[Daniel King]

Thank you all for your ideas. The Bobby D philosophy Mark described is what I am after. I just wanted techniques for when using the line.

 

Dan

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

I have been told by several people (who I trust) who have attended clinics or had private lessons that the long line technique is used regularly by Bobby D. to correct the situations (incorrect flanks, pace, starting driving, etc.) described in the earlier posts.

 

I suspect (but don't know this for certain) this is being used and taught to avoid teaching the bump & flank type driving but to teach driving with the dog always in contact with the sheep.

 

Mark

I have attended three Bobby Dalziel clinics, and do not recall extensive use of the long line, although he did use it. Dalziel is one of the ones I was referring to with a qualifier. Having been to other clinics, I don't use some of his techniques, even on a dog I have now that had to struggle through pace and gripping issues. He is turning out very good. But, I still wonder about a subsequent poster saying he uses a long line in "all stages of training". I certainly don't remember that, although my memory may be faulty, or he may have changed his techniques. Be that as it may, I think the original poster is entitled to more than one approach. Another citizen of the British Isles over here once said, paraphrasing somewhat, that "there would be some pretty good trainers in Texas, if they would stop using that long line". I can offer some big names as well who support my feelings about it.

 

I am not familiar with the phrase "bump and flank type driving".

 

Regards

[Eileen Stein]

I've attended one Bobby Dalziel clinic, and he definitely used a long line on fairly advanced dogs as well as beginners. There were Jack Knox adherents at the clinic who were resistant to the use of the long line, but Bobby was insistent about it, and he used it to good effect.

 

I know other top trainers who use a long line as well, with great subtlety. My impression is that the long line was an old technique which fell out of fashion in favor of more "natural" methods, but now is beginning to be appreciated again for certain uses, such as the ones mentioned here (improving pace and cleaning up flanks when driving).

 

I've never heard the phrase "bump & flank type driving" before either, but I have no trouble picturing exactly what it means.

[Wendy V]

Marc Christopher is trainer that uses the long line extensively in young dogs. I have seen quite sucessful results of his work, in the trained dogs that my friends have purchased, which have won and placed in many open trials. I, however, cannot get my hands around his methods, maybe because I am so impatient, that I end up tossing the line away and letting the dog have its sheep. That being said, to the OP I would add that if you prefer the use of the long line, which gives the handler control that he would not have without it, you might consider looking into a clinic his. Any verbal explanation of his methods would be useless.

 

Wendy V

 

To GR: Bump and drift- walk the dog up until it "bumps' the sheep into motion, than quickly down it, allowing the sheep to settle again, than walk it up again, then down again, up and down, up and down, until the sheep make it through the panels, then flank the dog to turn the sheep and start again on the cross drive. A frustrating method of moving sheep, particularly to the dog, but sometimes neccessary when moving very light, skittish trial sheep, espeicially when you have a dog with some push.

[Daniel King]

As Wendy mentioned, I too have played with the line before but never stuck to it. This time I intend to. I have seen dogs before and after and the results can be amazing. I know it is not cure all, just something to try like any other tool.

 

I do appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts. The dog in question is quite pushy and has a "Don't bother me I know what I'm doing" attitude. I am committed to her and I hope to stengthen our teamwork and "clean up" the flanks, drive, pace etc.

 

Dan

[SoloRiver]

My red dog Solo is a sheepdog of middling talent but more potential than I usually get out of him. He blows up easily and has control issues and I have difficulty handling him at times (teamwork issues coupled with first dog/ingrained bad habit issues). I have tried the Bobby Dalziel long line method on him, and while it afforded me control over situations I otherwise wouldn't have it in, in retrospect, in our case (not saying it won't work for others) it was a crutch and neither of us learned anything new using the long line.

 

Recently, two separate trainers watched me use a long line on Solo (I often automatically put it on when we are working somewhere new, because he can be grippy and in my experience sometimes people are very nervous about having their sheep gripped) and immediately advised me to take it off of him. My current trainer felt that Solo "hated" the long line and that it was a continuous punishment for him, perhaps indicating to Solo that I did not feel he could do anything right and thereby contributing to the pressure Solo seemed to feel under while working. In both cases, taking the line off of Solo immediately improved his attitude and his work.

 

Currently, my trainer and I are working on Solo's problems (which include a tendency to slice flanks, not so much when driving but in other situations where he feels too much pressure) in a very very large field (i.e., ~1200 meters long) with no fences nearby, no lines, and no artificial controls on the situation except for a backup dog in case things go awry. Solo is working for me better than he ever has, more confident, more biddable, and we are both much more relaxed about the situation, and he is proving to be much more amenable to playing as a team and responding naturally to sheep and handler pressure (it helps that I am getting better at giving cues in this context as well). It isn't simply that I no longer put a long line on him, of course, but we have been able to achieve (or get on the road to achieving) the kind of results I was hoping for without the use of the long line as an aid.

 

I guess the moral of this story (with the caveat that it is from a novice handler) is that different things work for different dogs. In Solo's case, the old "give him more freedom" routine seems to work best and get the most out of him. He is beginning to look like a real dog with this type of training, and I am very excited about it.

[Dixie_Girl]

The first three times Jackson was introduced to sheep he was kept on a long line. But I think that was mostly cuz they didn't know what he would do, chase, run away, eat the sheep. But in his first lesson, he was on a long line for about 10 min. then it was left to drag behind him, then it was removed. Nobody has said anything about using it later and I never saw anyone in the more advance classes use it. Maybe it is just preference or maybe it is the dog.

[juliepoudrier]

I have been to a Bobby Dalziel clinic and he did indeed use the long line at all stages as stated above. I tried it myself later, but apparently don't have the talent or something to make it work for me. Then again, it worked wonderfully for him and if I found I needed that tool, I might try it again and see if I'm better at it now that I have more experience myself.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I have never seen a long line used by a competent person (did I say that right?) but I have tried to use a long line myself after reading about it (Bruce Fogt's book, maybe?).

 

That was when I was first working with Celt and Megan. Because my fields had some weeds and occasional debris (branches, etc.) and because I was working with cattle, I only tried it once or twice and decided to not try it again.

 

I didn't know what I was doing and felt I could do more harm than good, and I was worried that it might pose a safety hazard to my dog while working with larger stock than sheep.

 

Has anyone here used a long line or seen someone using one when working with cattle? It sounds like it could be helpful for Celt's "driving problems" (although he is improving quite a bit on that as I am learning a bit more myself).

[J.E.S]

I have used a long line on occasion. Usually for young dogs that don't want to be called off and don't want to be caught. If only so I can stop the dog, get to it then send it off again to show it stopping does not necessarily mean forever. I am using one right now in just this situation (loose eye breed) and it worked wonders in this dogs respect for me.

I also used it on one of my own dogs that was too fast, too keen (for me) and would not calm down but instead kept rushing at his sheep in a panic. We put him on a long line with my friend on the other end and I worked the sheep on a fence line we did not let him get too close to get in a panic and it worked. If I said steady, she would give a slight tug on the line. If I said lie down she would not let him go till I gave him another command. I only had to use it a few times to show him that distance off his sheep made him feel better. He is a wonderful worker now and stays off his sheep nicely. He was already over 2 years when we used this and only after trying other methods to get him to not get into such a panic working. He had been started young and then due to my life circumstances I could not work my dogs for about 6 mos. So he lost a lot of valuable time and it may have contributed to his getting too uptight while working.

I think a long line can work for some dogs in certain situations.

I attended a 4 day Bobby Dalziel clinic and he did use a long line for just about every dog there no matter what level they were working at. My own dog who was not very far along (knew his flanks and could do a decent outrun) spent all 4 days on that long line and me going out to him and "whacking" him on the nose everytime he would not stop. It was a lot of pressure on this dog and had I followed through it may have worked with him, but I did not. However, that dog is now 6 years old and works well for me at the pro-novice level.