Control or "Robot Dog"?

[tumblehome]

I have watched 5 trials (large fields and arena) so far this year, with the prospect of 3 more before December. I can generally well follow the action, recognize disaster, appreciate success, rejoice in miraculous recovery. I can see to some extent how different dogs work; and how different sheep behave--and why. Participants and spectators have been enormously generous with their knowledge and I have read more books than is probably wise.

 

What I can't figure out and no one has adequately answered (probably because there is no one answer, as in most things dog), is dogs blowing off commands.

 

I am now accustomed to seeing dogs run through stop or down commands, or if they heed them it seems only as a pause, not a full halt. Having trained and trialed retrievers (much of what is used in handling retrievers is derived from sheepdog handling), I expect the dog to do what I asked--don't always get it of course--until I say to do something else. This is called a non-slip dog. At its extreme the dog is considered a robotdog; it may win the trial but no one's heart.

 

Is this how prompt response is viewed in sheepdog trialing? Or am I simply not attuned enough to know the difference between a "bide a while" command and and "full stop" command? The verbals "sound" the same to my novice ear.

 

Or are the dogs in fact blowing off the handler? To what extent is that overlooked/penalized?

 

John Templeton in "Working Sheep Dogs" writes that, as a judge, he penalizes more for a dog that is given commands but doesn't take them--saying he thinks this is worse then frequent commands that are taken. This agrees with the retriever trial philosophy.

 

Is this old snooze now, since his book was written in the UK in 1988...or am I actually seeing dogs blow off their handlers?

 

I know the seeing ain't the doing, believe me. But I can only watch now, so any words that clue me and and set me straight are really appreciated. Even if you just tell me I'm full if it, that's okay too.

 

Thanks!

Chris O

[Shoofly]

I'm not completely sure what you're asking but i think the answer is going to be "it depends". Some handlers want total obedience and some get it. Some want it but the dogs don't always give it in the heat of the moment. Some handlers would be glad the dog took charge there, some wouldn't. Some train for total obedience, some don't. For some handlers, down means down right now by god. For some, it means think about what you're doing and then the next down might mean put your butt down now. And sometimes it depends on the dog, even for different dogs with the same handler. I have one that can't be allowed to ignore a down (even if it was a bad time for one on my part) or a minute later in the run all will fall apart. Another dog can ignore the occasional down because i know she has good reason (usually saving me from a bad decision) and she'll go right back to listening when things are okay again.

 

So, yeah, you might be seeing dogs blow off their handlers. But sometimes that's just fine.

[Sue R]

My trainer feels that a "down" is to be a "down". If you want a "stop", then ask for a "stop". If you want a dog to slow down, ask for "steady" or "take time".

 

Some handlers use differing tones of the "stop" whistle to indicate "steady", "stop", or "down", kind of like saying "down" in a different tone of voice to get different results, which some handlers appear to do.

 

For my old brain, "down" needs to be "down" and "steady" is for slowing down and pacing correctly.

 

On the training field, if you ask for a "down" and want a down, and you don't get a down, you can run down the field, take the dog to where you he/she was when you said "down", and put the dog down there.

 

On the trial field, you can't leave the post until the pen or shed so, if your dog doesn't take the "down", you're stuck with what you get unless you are willing to leave the post and retire the field.

 

I think a dog should do what you say on the trial field - you have a goal in mind and the dog is the way you accomplish that goal. But, being a novice, I find myself giving the wrong command sometimes. I have given my dog a "down" when I thought he was flanking the sheep incorrectly, only to find out that he was simply correctly covering the sheep.

 

A dog should not blow off commands - you are the handler and in charge. But sometimes the dog sure knows more than I do and is reading the sheep better than I am. Sometimes, it's the other way around as I know what I want to accomplish and the dog wants to do what he thinks I want to accomplish and what his instincts are yelling at him to do.

 

I am a middle-aged novice handler with a young novice dog. My opinions are strictly those of a novice. I am sure others will have more constructive comments on this, and I look forward to reading them.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

As a novice handler, I take a quick look at the situation if the dog is blowing off my commands. I'm always ready to learn from the dog. The covnersation runs, "Why doesn't he - oh, well, that worked well anyway."

 

You'lll get, as Robin says, a lot of interpretation of the function of commands in the whole picture of stockdog work. That is, is my command a suggestion (this is rarely healthy), reminder of what the job is overall, guidance on how to get the job done, or is it putting the dog where I want the dog to be? The best trainers seem to fall between guidance and considering the dog a mindless tool. You'll hear lots of commands, different commands, and see very precise work. John Templeton, whom you mentioned, was a master at this - commands reportedly flowed from him "the course all round" - his dogs were clever apart from his guidance but as a team they were breathtaking.

 

A clever novice with a very clever and experienced dog, and most full time stock managers, can fall into the class of simply being a reminder of what the job is. So commands in this case come rarely and serve to point the flow of movement, not refine. This style can be amazing to watch, too - the trust between handler and dog is palpable as the handler allows the dog to balance tricky lines and turns or handle impossible sheep at the pen. The best pen I ever saw was done on range sheep without a single command. The judges apparently shared my opinion, because I heard later it got a "Best Pen" award.

 

What you develop personally depends on your early mentoring, your dogs, and what works best in your own livestock operation. John Templeton, for instance, used to have a hand-to-mouth operation with hill sheep and lively cattle, clinging to a narrow-faced, rocky hillside. Strict obedience meant the difference between "all safe" and losing stock, a dog, or both.

 

Training that way meant he had to be very in tune to the stock, however. I'm too lazy for that. So I know I'll always have a more relaxed attitude - but that means I have to have dogs I can trust to take up the slack. The ideal dog for me can perform "silent" (command free) outwork - particularly outrun, lift, fetch.

[JenS]

Your question is one I often hear from spectators at trials. It is a good question but the answer is complex.

 

The main difference between a working stock and any other dog activity is the stock. That sounds obvious but it can be difficult to see if one is unfamiliar with working stock. The majority of the dogs attention is controlling the stock. Any commands from the handler come through this filter. This is painfully obvious when starting a young dog! However with work, training and maturity the commands from the handler get more important.

 

Now as others have noted, different handlers have commands that may not mean what we think it to mean. Down may not mean down. Also, look to what the stock is doing. At a trial recently many dogs were blowing of a particular flank command. What most spectaters couldn't see is that there was a LOT of pressure in area (toward exhaust). The dogs were keenly aware of this. They would then tend to push the sheep off line, away from this pressure. The handler would try to correct the line and many dogs, most especially the young ones, would refuse the flank being sure they would lose control if they obeyed. Older, more experienced dogs and handlers, who were also better at small flanks, handled this much better. Now this is a training issue, but not one where the dog needs to learn to flank because the handler said so, but rather how to keep control while giving in a bit to the stock. This is much more difficult.

 

You often see this when a handler tries to down a dog on a rough fetch. The dog blows it off because the sheep are getting away! Now some dogs do blow things off when you really need them to listen to you during the pressure of a trial. (thats why it's called a trial) But looking at the big picture, the dog is in control of the stock and that is really what we want. Staying on line and making panels is nice, but at the end of the day we need the sheep in the corral.

 

A dog that listens to commands without question is what the sheepdog world usually refers to as "mechanical" This dog is not feeling it's stock and must rely on the handler for its every move. This doesn't work to well as humans can't read and react to stock a fraction of as well as a good dog. This dog, with a good handler, might do well at some trials though. If you watch carefully, you can usually spot them.

 

As for judging, most judges don't care about the commands the handle gives unless it is during the outrun (any command here may cost you points) or sometimes during the shed if, say, the dog doesn't come in when asked. As for the rest of it, if the dog is not taking a command, chances are he is off line, or missing a gate, or causing and not fixing a problem. Those things are losing points. The problem takes care of itself.

 

Sorry this is so long and full of typos. I hope I made myself clear. Maybe I'll run into you at a trial soon.

[Deb Mickey]

Ok. I'll jump in here. But like Sue my opinions are from a still wet behind the ears handler though I've been doing this awhile.

 

You've hit the nail on the head of what is an on-going discussion within the sheepdog world - "push button" vs. "natural."

 

I think individual preference and personality sway what we as handlers want on the field. I've watched some handlers whistle commands on what seems like every step the dog takes, expecting total compliance. Others seemed to be more apt to let the dog make some of the decisions. Where this is the most apparent to me is on the fetch. Some command their dogs the whole way down and others, unless they need to put the sheep back on the line or slow things down, are fairly quiet.

 

I agree with Robin that the individual dog determines how much the handler needs to demand compliance to commands. Some dogs are hotter than others and require supper strength power brakes and control to keep things going smoothly.

 

And Sue's right too in that shorten versions of a stop whistle or tone of voice can mean stand or stop or even slow down. It's all so subtle.

 

It seems that what I see a lot in the novice classes (novice-novice to ranch) are inexperience handlers trying to stop their dog in inappropriate places. The lie down is often the only tool the novice handler has to slow things down. What I see are dogs being asked to lie down when they know they will lose the sheep so they ignore the command. The bc's instinct and feel for sheep is what makes this whole sport so amazing to me and the handler may not be correctly reading what is truly happening between the sheep & dog.

 

Of course how far the dog is along in its training plays a role here too. Young dogs make wrong choices just like new handlers.

 

I've seen some amazing handling from the top competitors in this sport and I always learn from them. They can take a mediocre dog and make it look great or take a cranky group of sheep and have them calmly walking through the course. These handlers have years of experience and sheep savvy I can only dream about. I guess my point with this is if one demands total obedience from the dog, in my humble opinion, they better know what they are doing. I know in my case I've messed up more fetches by commanding my dog than by keeping my lips zipped!

 

I've competed in many dog sports; obedience, agility, flyball, hunting, but sheepdog trialing has another part of the equation the others don't - the sheep. Centuries of breeding have produced this dog that understands and can read these sheep. It seems it is a tightrope walk to produce biddable dogs that listen but still retain their instinct and feel for the sheep.

 

Phew! didn't that get long?

 

JMHO

[Zoe]

This post is SO interesting. Just wanted to say !

[tumblehome]

You guys are great! Thanks for putting the thought and time into your replies.

 

It's a lot like I suspected, a lot of nuance I don't sense yet and probably won't until I get into a pasture with dog and sheep, and a lot of pretty straight logic that I missed completely.

 

Fer instance, the stock part of the equation. Dogs in true hunting situations become very bird savvy but in a trial, the bird is the least important part of the experience. In a sheep dog trial, without the sheep you got squat, Like I said, the logic escaped me...but I now I have another part if it.

 

Jennifer, I'm planning on going to the Auburn trial, and to Point Pleasant.

 

Again, many thanks. I envy you all.

Chris O

[Wendy V]

Hey Chris O!

 

I'm a big raw fan of yours, but now see you in the BC boards. You gotta a border collie yet?

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by Wendy V:

Hey Chris O!

 

I'm a big raw fan of yours, but now see you in the BC boards. You gotta a border collie yet?

No...alas. Heck, I'd be blabbing it all over the place if I did. And I guarantee I will be blabbing it when I do. Some day. Sooner than later I gosh darn hope.

 

Thanks for the kind words!

Chris O

[Deb Mickey]

The ideal dog for me can perform "silent" (command free) outwork - particularly outrun, lift, fetch.

I agree with Rebecca that some of the most beautiful work I've seen is a silent gather or watching a dog tuck an independent sheep back into the flock or adjust to hold a line without the handler intervening. To me that?s showing the dog?s breeding and wisdom. I would have loved to have seen that pen!

 

Chris O - looking forward to reading that announcement!

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by Deb Mickey:

Chris O - looking forward to reading that announcement!

LOL

Not anywheres near as much I am! I expect I'll have to go all gushy with pictures.

Chris O

[JenS]

Chris, I retired my open dog this year and won't be at Elk Grove, but I might show up in Auburn to work. Come by and say hello.

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by JenS:

Chris, I retired my open dog this year and won't be at Elk Grove, but I might show up in Auburn to work. Come by and say hello.

Jen, Elk Grove was terrific! I suppose for "best" the weather should have been cooler, but it was "very good" weather for dog work. Nice folks, great dogs. So very cool to watch them work their hearts out.

 

Looking forward to Auburn!

Chrs O

[JenS]

Hey Chris, glad it was a good trial. The Spencers do a lot for the working sheepdog community and I'm glad to hear everything went well. Wish I had a dog to run. It may be a bit til my young one is up to it.

 

I'll be at Auburn working exhaust with my old man and perhaps my young idiot (if the sheep aren't too tough). This is a first time trial and I know lots of work is going into making it a good one. Here's hoping the weather is just as good as last weekend!

[Pipedream Farm]

Like Robin said, it will depend upon the dog and the handler. Renee and I like natural dogs, ones that can do it on their own; besides a silent gather I love starting the dog on the drive and then not having to say anything because the dog knows to take the sheep straight to and through the gates in front of it. But not all dogs can be that natural and the handler must then take control. Some dogs are that that confident (yet) and need the reassurance and calming influence of the handler "speaking" to it.

 

I will let some dogs ignore commands if I trust their judgement of a situation; they may be feeling pressures I cannot see or can tell the sheep are not through the gates or heading through the gates and my command is incorrect for the situation. Other dogs I do not trust their judgement (yet or in certain situations).

 

This is where the right match/team (dog & handler) really shows; they know and trust each other and work together.

 

Mark

[Sue R]

Now you just raised a question I have wondered about, Mark. Does a dog understand the "course" and have the idea that it is their job to take the sheep to the drive gates and then across the cross drive and through those gates?

 

I can understand a dog at "home" with a routine, and where a gate is an opening in the fenceline (and not just a space between "arbitrary" panels out in a field), to know what the job is and be able to do it without handler commands.

 

I was under the impression that most folks felt that the drive on trial dogs was a matter of the handler directing the dog along the lines, and never the dog "knowing" that it was taking the sheep up to and through the gates.

 

I can easily see the outrun, lift, and a straight fetch being quite natural to a dog and therefore requiring little, if any, handler commands but can a dog "understand" the course and proceed with minimal contribution from the handler?

[Pipedream Farm]

Hey Sue. I my somewhat limited experience, I'd say some dogs truly do know to bring sheep through panels. Rae does this for me all the time. There have been times when I wasn't sure where I needed to be to get through the crossdrive panel and she's saved my butt numerous times. What we've found with her, the more we practice panels at home, the more apt she is to do it at trials. That doesn't mean we'll always hit them, but if I get her in the general vicinity, more often the not, she'll let me know if I'm wrong. One time at a trial she was in front of the crossdrive panels and I was sure she was low. I give her an "away" flank and she hesitates and just looks at me like "are you sure about that?". Well, I insisted, she did what I asked and we missed the panel --just barely. If I had just trusted her, we would have made it. I kicked myself a long time over that one, but I did learn from the experience to listen to her and it has paid off many times since then.

Renee

[Deb Mickey]

And, to add my 2 cents, some dogs are natural "line dogs." When you start the drive, once you put them on a line, they keep the sheep on it. My Jill is good at that but I think it's because of her overly strong eye which comes up to get us in other areas :eek: .

[Sue R]

Well, I always figured that a really smart dog should be able to "figure" out that (once sent in a direction from the handler's post towards a set of panels), his "job" was to get those sheep through the panels. But a few knowledgeable folks I have talked to, felt that that was not the case. So, I have always wondered about this.

 

It made sense to me that, if a dog can learn that, at home on the farm, he has a job to bring the stock to the feeder, through a gate, to the barn, etc., the smart dog could be able to comprehend that he always takes the sheep/cattle through the panels on fetch or drive, with the handler's commands sending him to the right set of panels and reinforcing the line.

 

Repetition at home and repetition on the trial field should have similar results, depending on the dog. Eventually, a good dog should be able to "understand" that going through those panels is the job (or going around the handler's post, etc.).

 

However, I have always wondered that, since free-standing panels present a rather arbitrary obstacle with no real "purpose", do many dogs just never "get it" that they are to put the sheep through the panels.

 

I bet there are differing points of view on this, and different dogs (like yours, Renee) that do and don't "get it".

 

Thanks!

[Jennifer Glen]

I swear that my Bob and sometimes, my Jed (who is less experienced) will aim for panels if they aren't too far apart.

As for the orginal thread, I'm with Robin, "It depends". People from obedience and other sports just don't understand when we don't have complete obedience from our dogs. That's because our sport is different. We are not making excuses, our sport is more about a "feel" than rigid rules(between the dog and handler). Our dogs anticipate the sheep and how they are going to move. They were bred for it and they can see subtle signs that the sheep are going to change direction, that we can't from 600yrds away. There are times that our dogs work out of sight or hearing (in a bad wind) and they have to do it themselves. That means there has to be a balance of when your dog MUST listen, and when he has to figure it out for himself. If we never let them figure it out, they cannot operate on their own. Unfortunately this sometimes leads to them deciding they can do it without our help.(we won't mention any names but his initials are Bob the dog) It's a fine line to have a dog that listens AND yet can still do it by themselves if they need to.

Jenny Glen