Chantal Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 *For (not 'or' in title lol) I'm running out of ideas to reward him to tug. I just can't get him interested in tugging with tennis balls around, hense his return to me is not nearly as fast as it could be (his send is speeeeedy!!.) I don't have a problem with him coming back it's more of a "ok got the ball, *du du du* oh yeah! i'm spose to go back to her" trots back. He tugs normally, he loves tugging. But when the tennis ball is there he's quite happy to forget about tugging. And I feel like I've tried so many different tugs. I even bring him to the pet store and let him try a billion different toys, and i wander looking for something, but low and behold i take the tennis ball out. And back to the ball. Tug tennis balls won't do, or any assortments of ball on rope. He's not much for food either. Not when he's in play mode. I can barely get him to accept a treat. Food is for slow, precise refinement. I've tried building a toy into a greater motivator, but nothing. He used to come back faster, but he knows when he brings the ball back I won't throw it again for him (I mean I can't at a tournament can I? I don't see their being room.. and safety issues..) When we are away from the jumps/lane, playing fetch, he fetches and returns as fast as anything, because he knows that game. But he knows flyball isn't that game. He LOVES to run. I need him to have a better obsession! Suggestions?! Maybe I need to instill an even better foul proof jet plane speed recall in him. But I'm afraid that will just dull using it so much in flyball, he'll figure out I can't offer anythign better. Maybe it will speed up when we get to racing mode? still i need a better rewards!! Toy suggestions? Food suggestions. Anyyything?? My instructors seems to think he'll eventually tug, i'm not quite too sure. Do I have to use tennis balls int he box? Can I use a stupid ball, and reward with the tennis? Maybe I should have a bucket of balls he can run back to as a reward? (Next week I'm bringing a big mac, eating it in face, sit and the end send him and let him have a bite when he recalls. Maybe then that'll motivate him a bit.) Thanks Edited to add: I should of worded things a bit better. When I say obsessed I don't mean can't think, can't focus. He can focus with the ball, he has self control, he knows the 'job', the ball has been a great training tool for chanelling his drive and learning control. But on the hierarchy of rewards, tennis ball is always #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 A couple of suggestions to try: (FWIW remember each dog is different) It may not be a bad idea to play with several tennis balls at once. He has one, and you throw one towards him. That should get his interest. If he doesn't drop the first ball, then run to the thrown ball, pick it up and play with it and throw it again to see what he does. Get him excited. You want him to drop the ball. When he does, reward him (verbally or click or treat) and as fast as possible, give him the ball back or throw another ball. It sounds like you need to teach him that it is a good thing when he gives up the ball. play the trade game with another tennis ball. When Torque was a pup, he was frisbee-obsessed. It was really hard to get him to voluntarily drop the frisbee. I didn't want to get into a tugging war to get the frisbee back. I used another frisbee and played with it myself to make it look super attractive to him. The millisecond he dropped his frisbee, he got my frisbee. I gradually worked up from the trade game to the point where I can now say "drop it" and he does. Note: gradually means 4-6 months of very, very small steps. It is really hard to deal with this type of behavior since it is so self-reinforcing. I understand from what little I have seen of flyball that the tugging is a wonderful reward after a run, but if your dog is just as happy with his tennis ball, I don't see why that couldn't be used in a creative way. To get your dog to come back to you, again - use a 2nd tennis ball. When you throw the 1st tennis ball, and he turns back to you - show him the 2nd tennis ball in your hands and start running away - fast - to set up the chase instinct. Hopefully, he will come flying back to you. Give him that 2nd tennis ball when he gets back to you. Eventually, he should run back to you even if you occasionally don't give him back the tennis ball. (This is similar to restrained recall training.) It sounds like your dog loves his ball and doesn't want to give it up. You have to convince him that it is fun to give it up -- and that is a hard thing to to. Just keep things upbeat and playful and don't expect too much too fast. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have been playing flyball for 11 yrs and well I just don't see the point in making a dog tug if they don't want. I have 1 dog that tugs, 1 who runs for another ball, 1 that may run for a tug or food or a ball and 2 for straight food. I am working on one of them tugging because my hand to getting bit with food. She may never get it though. Anyways, in practice you can do whatever you want with a second toy as long as it does not adversely effect the other dogs running. When I teach classes, I will allow a handler to roll a second ball into the runback area or even throw a ball into the runback area. I see nothing wrong with a dog running flyball for another ball. We have a couple club dogs that do so. Tennis balls are not the only ball allowed in flyball. We have semi squishy balls that are practice balls in tennis, we have the stress balls, etc... sometimes using a less high value ball and coming back to a tennis ball will work but not always. My ball obsessed loves to tug as well BUT a ball is his first love. A ball is more important than food and he will choose a ball over food and has been known to spit food for a ball. I would also do a lot of recalls back to the motivator whether a ball or tug so he learns you have something special as well. I would also do up close work - sending from 1 or 2 jumps and you take off running to build the drive back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yeah sounds liek I just need to rebuild his drive. I'm going to try next week to get someone to send him as I wait by the box and race him (yeah righttt hah) back. He's just too smart lol. He knows that flyball means after he gets the ball the game is kinda over (his game is running and getting the ball) Playing and giving back the ball is no problem and he releases mostly on command if I need him too, but running back to me is kinda like ok, now I know I have to wait my turn while the other doggies have their turn. So essentially i'm rewarding him negatively (because *yay* and here catch this ball is less fun than the run he just did.) Make sense? Got to the point whee I threw him another ball and je just looked at me original ball in mouth, watched the ball I threw go right to him and he let it hit his face Kinda like a "well, screw this, i'm just gonna keep this ball because I earned it." So I have to counter it by finding something more fun than that sprint to the ball. (Where most dogs the tug is this thing) I'm new to flyball so I'm still just understanding the game. And my club is still a newer club so everyone is always learning. I'm thinking next week I'll do the 1) running back with him as someone else releases him. And 2) maybe I'll run him and when he reaches me, drops the ball, I'll send him again. And then again. And change the amount of times he gets to do the run in a row so I keep him guessing. Rewarding him with letting him run again? And in competition setting, he will learn that he gets to run lots anyway. 3) Throw the ball as a reward because in tournament, he shall just get a little roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Nichols Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Here are a couple of ideas: http://www.flyball.org/training_archive.html#11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I did something similar to Jovi with a dog that had problems dropping his toys. He would run like crazy to get the ball or frisbee and would come back at a lower speed and stand there with his head down, jaw quivering, worrying until he would finally drop it. As soon as he did I would throw a second ball or frisbee. It got to when he was coming back I could tell him to drop it and then whirl and throw the second ball at a 180 degree angle to where he was coming from. He would spit out the first ball and go flying past me to get the second one. If you can use a second ball for a reward I would work on that. Do it away from class but whenever he comes back ask him to drop it and when he does throw the ball behind you. Don't throw the second til he drops the first to keep from the scenario you described where he let the second ball go flying past him. Keep working til as he turns with the first ball you can show him the second and start to turn like you are going to throw it and he comes flying. When he gets to you ask for the drop and then throw it. If he drops the first one before he gets to you he doesn't get the second (to keep him from dropping it before getting past the line in flyball). None of my dogs tug and I was told by more than one person that they have to tug to do agility. I personally hate tugging so discourage my dogs from young ages from the game. They run just as fast and are just as driven to play the game as the dogs I see tugging after runs, just better behaved. I hate to see people dragging their dogs out of the ring without even putting the leash on the dog with the dog attached by its teeth to the leash. I know the dog is having a good time but it disrupts the other dogs standing around when they get slammed into by a dog that is tugging like a maniac, plus I've seen dogs let go of their leashes and run at another dog which would not have happened if the handler had put the dog on the leash and left the area nicely to go play elsewhere. Sorry for that rant!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yeah sounds liek I just need to rebuild his drive. I'm going to try next week to get someone to send him as I wait by the box and race him (yeah righttt hah) back. He's just too smart lol. He knows that flyball means after he gets the ball the game is kinda over (his game is running and getting the ball) Playing and giving back the ball is no problem and he releases mostly on command if I need him too, but running back to me is kinda like ok, now I know I have to wait my turn while the other doggies have their turn. So essentially i'm rewarding him negatively (because *yay* and here catch this ball is less fun than the run he just did.) Make sense? Got to the point whee I threw him another ball and je just looked at me original ball in mouth, watched the ball I threw go right to him and he let it hit his face Kinda like a "well, screw this, i'm just gonna keep this ball because I earned it." So I have to counter it by finding something more fun than that sprint to the ball. (Where most dogs the tug is this thing) Sounds like your dog is smart (...running back to me is kinda like ok, now I know I have to wait my turn while the other doggies have their turn...) - so you have to be even more creative. Try to find ways to keep the fun going so it is not such a negative for him to let go of his ball. These guys really make us WORK. Torque did the same thing at first with the frisbee. I would toss the 2nd frisbee (I used a cloth frisbee) and since I was tossing it (basically dropping it) close to the side of his head, it would sometimes hit his face. He gave me such a hurt look, but would not let go of his frisbee. I just kept at it - kept talking in a high, squeaky voice, throwing the frisbee from hand to hand, jumping up and down, turning in a circle, 'giving' him the frisbee (he just looked at it) then snatch it back, drop the frisbee near him then grab it before he does, running away and back with the frisbee - you get the idea - act like a demented wild woman. Eventually he did crack and would drop the frisbee and grab the 2nd one. Then we had a great party!! Good Luck, Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thanks guys. He's my first bc, sooo much work (in the good way ) I just love how their minds think. I think i'm also going to incorperate more fetch at practice. Because EVERYWHERE else he drops the ball and goes for another one lol. So I guess he's more running obsessed than ball obsessed. It's his favourite game. Huge drive in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 None of my dogs tug and I was told by more than one person that they have to tug to do agility. I personally hate tugging so discourage my dogs from young ages from the game. They run just as fast and are just as driven to play the game as the dogs I see tugging after runs, just better behaved. I hate to see people dragging their dogs out of the ring without even putting the leash on the dog with the dog attached by its teeth to the leash. I know the dog is having a good time but it disrupts the other dogs standing around when they get slammed into by a dog that is tugging like a maniac, plus I've seen dogs let go of their leashes and run at another dog which would not have happened if the handler had put the dog on the leash and left the area nicely to go play elsewhere. Sorry for that rant!! I agree that if your dog really doesn't want to tug, use something else that is high value. You can continue to work on building value for tugging, but it is not the "end all - be all". I actually heard of an agility instructor that would not take a dog as a student unless it tugged. How sad. I think that indicates a lack of creativity on the instructor's part. In 2010, NADAC no longer allowed dogs to tug on their leash when their run was finished. You could be disqualified if you allowed your dog to do that. Quite a few dogs had been trained to run to their leash and expect a tugging session when they finished their run - so it was a real wake-up call for some handlers. Both ACK and NADAC require your dog to be leashed before exiting the ring - even the little ones that can be carried. You can still carry the dog out of the ring, but it must be leashed. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I actually heard of an agility instructor that would not take a dog as a student unless it tugged. How sad. I think that indicates a lack of creativity on the instructor's part. Really? That is very sad indeed. What happened to everyone dog learns differently? lol. Can't be a very competent instructor (or a snob..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 The one thing I would NOT do is run the dog - back to back to back to back... This can be great to teach a dog to rerun if needed BUT it can also backfire and you could get a dog that reruns itself without being told including following another dog down the lane. Yes I know a dog who does this but I don't believe that was how he was trained he just loves to run for that ball and if you don't catch him he will rerun himself. You just need to build drive back to you which may mean taking a couple steps back in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 The one thing I would NOT do is run the dog - back to back to back to back... This can be great to teach a dog to rerun if needed BUT it can also backfire and you could get a dog that reruns itself without being told including following another dog down the lane. Yes I know a dog who does this but I don't believe that was how he was trained he just loves to run for that ball and if you don't catch him he will rerun himself. You just need to build drive back to you which may mean taking a couple steps back in training. Thanks for the heads up on that! I did something similar to Jovi with a dog that had problems dropping his toys. He would run like crazy to get the ball or frisbee and would come back at a lower speed and stand there with his head down, jaw quivering, worrying until he would finally drop it. As soon as he did I would throw a second ball or frisbee. It got to when he was coming back I could tell him to drop it and then whirl and throw the second ball at a 180 degree angle to where he was coming from. He would spit out the first ball and go flying past me to get the second one. If you can use a second ball for a reward I would work on that. Do it away from class but whenever he comes back ask him to drop it and when he does throw the ball behind you. Don't throw the second til he drops the first to keep from the scenario you described where he let the second ball go flying past him. Keep working til as he turns with the first ball you can show him the second and start to turn like you are going to throw it and he comes flying. When he gets to you ask for the drop and then throw it. If he drops the first one before he gets to you he doesn't get the second (to keep him from dropping it before getting past the line in flyball). I must of missed your reply the first time I read these! Thanks so much I'm going to do exactly this. Outside of flyball he's fine for dropping. I think If I do exactly this and just reinforce that I will throw the ball after he will be fine. It's hard to play fetch in class because of there being more dogs, i think it's finally time to drop the tug entirely and focus on rewarding with a second ball Though I will keep practicing at home and see if I can get him to favour the tug an trade the ball for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Some great suggestions here to try. If nothing here works, my suggestion is to use the Premack Principle to increase the value of the tug. Basically, the dog must tug to get the ball. Takes some work, but it is possible, especially if the dog already likes to tug away from the ball and has a good drop command, which it sounds like your dog has both. I can explain it in more detail if you're interested after you try the other suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 One more question! I've been reading up on everythign I can and everything says to take them away, so going to take away all tennis balls from his life except for flyball. And I'm going to focus on tug only for his play. And be using a frisbee instead of the chuck-it for his morning/pre class exercise runs. My one worry is that taking the balls away will make him obsess more over them at flyball? Or should I not let him have them at class either and use a hockey ball or something instead? I can't take them totally away, he will be seeing them in class with other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip2milou Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What do you use for recalls? Does he come back to you to a tug then or to a ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 He'll come back to me anytime. But as far as speed is concern. Faster for tennis balls, slower for tug. Tug I can get speed but once the tennis ball is taken out (or 20 mins into class when he realises other dogs are working for balls) tug is no motivation whatsoever. I haven't use the tennis ball for awhile until we were practising last class ball in box turns and then that's where it went down hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I know you said that tugs with tennis balls on them don't do anything, but you might try this. Get some good durable rope, but rope that is thinner than what you would have on a tug. You might try a shop that sells boat supplies and find some good, strong boat line. If you explain what this is for, the salespeople can probably help you select the right rope. They helped me when I needed some rope for a bumper toy. Anyway, you can drill two holes in a tennis ball to thread the rope through. When you get the rope, thread it through and tie it secure to the ball. You will want a good bit of rope left - maybe several feet. Outside of flyball, do some recalls and offer the tennis ball on the rope as the reward. I probably wouldn't even try to tug. Maybe pull the ball so he has to chase it to get it or something. If that works, maybe you could eventually fashion that into a homemade ball on a rope for him to drive back to in flyball that would sort of be like a tug. Or, would that not be allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 So Jude tugged furiously half of our agility class this morning, then declared he didn't want to anymore. Go him though, relaxed enough to tug around other dogs. In flyball where it's a smaller class and nice big indoor location he tugged for a bit until someone bounced a tennis ball for their dog. And he went straight into that mode. Instead of holding him for runs I put him in a stay, went to the box and raced him back a few times, and then threw a ball for him. After mixing it up over different starting point I did a normal release full run, and he seemed to have more drive back to me, once he knew i'd be throwing the ball. Also, one of the instructors had this tug and I'm trying to find it online if anyone can help me out (she said she bought it off someone that comes to do clinics here (someone from push play in NB I think, she's coming in March but I want a tug nowwww haha). It's a tug that's made of rubber with a tennins ball at the end attached to a rubber grip (cylinder shape) the tennis ball is attached by a thin rubber cord like thing and there's a lot of spring in it. I think it's going to be the answer to all my proplems. Jude follows this toy so well. At first we used it as a guide to get his box turns good, and he sprang right on to the box perfect to follow the toy, and when he caught it he was just like okay.. wait a minute and then started tugging like crazy. Anyone know even a little what i'm talking about? And where to get one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Was it a modified UdderTug? http://www.helpingudders.com/Shop.htm I've never seen one with a tennis ball attached, but I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Was it a modified UdderTug? http://www.helpingudders.com/Shop.htm I've never seen one with a tennis ball attached, but I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to do. Seems very probable that it was something along those lines, like a modified one using the donut holes and farmer fingers there. Because he did give the toy a very good sniffing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 when I competed with Happy, Happy is super ball obbessed too, she NEVER l;earned to tug, I jusr rewarded with the tennis ball, when she came back I would take the ball and throw it back into her mouth several times, Happy had a wicked fast recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Nichols Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 These two places have tugs similar to what you are describing: Tweak's Tugs: www.tweakstugs.com Crash Test Toys: www.axxent.ca/~crasher/ Dana workinglabs@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 These two places have tugs similar to what you are describing: Tweak's Tugs: www.tweakstugs.com Crash Test Toys: www.axxent.ca/~crasher/ Dana workinglabs@comcast.net I think I found it on your Crash Test Toys link! Thanks so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip2milou Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Crash Test Toys will also design your tug with you. He will also tell you if what you are looking for does't work & why. Our team gets most of our tugs from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Crash Test Toys will also design your tug with you. He will also tell you if what you are looking for does't work & why. Our team gets most of our tugs from him. Just ordered from him, very excited for it! Great prices too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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