Any training tips for yung excited dog?

[kimkathan]

Anyone out there have any tips for "calming down" an overly ambitious young dog (2yo) and getting her to give ground/distance.

She comes to me from good southern breeding, versitial (cattle, goats, sheep, ducks). She's working well, but is extreamly excited and pushing the limits/blowing me off, especially when it comes to a down/stay. I do have a working stop on her. I want/need her to stay in gate ways/holding sheep. She feels the pressure of the sheep shifting a little, and and is up and at it. I have taken her back to where I wanted her to be, over and over to no avail. She does know what stay means (away from stock she'll stay for over 20 min with no problem)

I'm also looking for advice on how to get her to have distance off of her stock. When doing balance work, she can be in too close. Her outruns over 30 yds are very close at the top. I have tried to lie her down and re-direct with an "out", NOTHING....walking up the field as she leaves (she's fine when she sees me there, but as soon as I'm not, she's right back at it.

Any help people may be able to provide in any of these areas would be much appreciated. And so would any warm, sunny weather people would be willing to send to the north-east (We got over 18 " of snow yesterday, but still trying to work in the fields)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Remember I'm a novice here, but I do have some experience in this area having handled almost nothing but hotheads! I've had to figure out approaches that don't involve a) a lot of running, or split second timing.

 

What I did to get a dog to listen (at least somewhat): I "grazed" the sheep with the dog in question. First we went out and he had to sit quietly watching the sheep on leash. Then another day he could sit dragging the leash. Then another day I'd let him "bump" the sheep a bit. Then I'd let him take a teeny flank. Then a bigger flank. More watching. Then he'd walk up a bit, flank, and watch some more. All this took days and days, weeks altogether. If he ever blew it, we'd back up to the previous level of tolerance. I'd always be watching for when we'd go out there, he lie down readily, and get into a relaxed position. That was my sign that he was ready for the next step up.

 

For much of it I had a long line on him to make sure he didn't suceed at rewarding himself for ignoring me.

 

I've only done this with dogs that had a hard time stopping. I'd never advise the full-fledged version for a dog with lots of eye. I never did it anywhere NEAR as much as I should have. Random is the first dog I've been faithful to the end with this method, and he's still got a little ways to go. But I know it works consistently with this kind of dog, because I've gotten breakthroughs that meant the difference in night and day in the dog's attitude even just working on this a couple weeks' straight.

[Pipedream Farm]

Jody (1 year old) is a bit hot on her sheep and usually takes me a while to get her to calm down and think about what she's doing as opposed to trying to run as fast as possible to get to her sheep or running so hard she's not thinking about her sheep. What works best with Jody is lots of exercise off stock to run off her puppy hyperness. Those days she get this I have a sensible, thinking working dog. Those days she doesn't get the extra exercise the first pat of our session is a fight getting her to do it right.

 

Mark

[Denise Wall]

Kim,

 

Regarding staying down: Asking a dog to lie down and stay down each time until you tell it otherwise is asking the dog to ignore its desire to control the stock. Maybe too much of the time. Unless you're a *very* good handler, I think you'll find that dog will need to get up on its own sometimes to keep the sheep from getting away. And you should be happy that it did.

 

I always found that sometimes I wanted the dog to stay down (or standing) and sometimes I didn't mind if it got up and covered my mistakes at reading sheep. I went for a long time being annoyed that my dogs wouldn't stay put on a lie down, even though I was happy to let them get up sometimes when they needed to. The problem was I was using one command for at least two different things and getting mad that they didn't know the difference.

 

Here's what I did to remedy this. I now use "stop" for when I want a total stop. I continued to use "lie down" for when they were allowed to move if they had to (this was their association with this command after all), and I use "stay still" when I want them to stay put until I tell them otherwise. So I now use three commands but two would probably do. It took me a while to get consistent with using three commands instead of one but things started improving almost immediately as the dogs understood my intent rather than having to guess.

 

If you ask a dog do something it wants to do and is fighting you to do, even if only sometimes, you have a better chance at getting it to do what it doesn't want to do other times. In other words, if you're always holding your dog back and fighting with your dog to stop and stay, you're not giving anything back to your dog. Sometimes if you ask a fast dog on for a bit, it'll make it more amiable to slow down later. Maybe it realizes there will be a time when you'll let it do what it wants so it's not always fighting with you to get that thing you won't ever give it. Or maybe they learn the difference between fast and slow.

 

There's a phrase I heard from Simon Mosse (Ireland) that goes something like, train opposites. As an example, I have a little bitch of the pocket rocket variety, Kate. When I ask her to flank, it's like she's been shot out of a cannon. I never was able to get her to flank slow until I put a fast flank command on her. We're still "perfecting" that but she's going to get it now.

 

It sounds as if you're fighting this dog a lot. Your description makes it sounds like it's become all about the dog and you and not the dog feeling the sheep. The key is to get the dog into a position where its mind is freed up to feel the right distance from the sheep. Long slow work is a great way to calm dogs and get them thinking better, as others have described.

 

Another thing you can try is when the dog starts cutting in tight on the outrun, quietly lie it down. Quietly walk out to it, and quietly take it out to the proper distance it should be for that outrun. Lie it down again and make it stay there until you get back to where you sent it from. Then send the dog again from where it is, putting no voice or body pressure on it. If it starts coming in tight again, repeat the process. Make sure the sheep will stay put for this procedure - use hay or grain or have someone hold them.

 

What this can do if the dog is ready is help it feel the natural distance to the sheep without any pressure from you correcting it. It's lying there, probably looking at the sheep, waiting as you walk all the way back to your spot. Sometimes removing all the other pressure and just having it be in the right place will make it click that it's easier to control the sheep from there, the dog just didn't know how to get to that point itself.

 

Many times dogs that cut in like that are anxious that the sheep are going to get away. Then they proceed to do the exact thing that will make what they fear happen which makes them even more anxious. They don't know how to make it better. You need to break the cycle and what I described above might work to do that. Also it does not rely on perfectly timed corrections to work. Simply a firm plan and quiet determination.

 

Hope this helps. Just my humble opinion.

[Pipedream Farm]

Kim,

 

I also use the training/correction method described by Denise to correct Jody's one side where she's too tight on her outrun. I do that in combination with stopping her, calling her off, and resending her. Before you do the latter, be sure your dog really knows how to do the correct outrun. Also note that the latter doesn't work with all dogs. It works great on Renee's Rae.

 

Mark

[kelli 1]

Find yourself a good trainer.

[kimkathan]

Trainers are few and far, far between around here. I work with a man every other week or so (He's almost 2 hours, and the others are any where from 2 1/2 on) Lambing is almost done, and the sun is warmer the past few days, so I can focus more on the dog again. I have trained two other BC with extreamly different personalities and dispositions than this one. It's like starting compleatly from scratch. I have taken her in the pen the last 2 days, just lying her down working around the barn, and ocassionaly saying "stay" She'll stay there as long as I keep repeting it, just different, the others would stay there, or shift to cover pressure and lie down again. If the sheep move, the current one will move to cover the pressure, but "creates her own work" in the process and keeps going. We're trying to get prepared for a trip the middle of May to a Trial in North Carolina, and she's coming along nicely. Just need to widen out her away side and slow her down. Thanks for all the replys so far, and keep them coming.

[Jeanne Bell]

I recently had a big breakthrough with my 4 year old male who sounds similar to yours. He also likes to create his own work and was very sensitive to movement of the sheep as a trigger to GO.

 

This may sound a little strange but his problem was a lack of respect for me as the leader when we were working. He wasn't working for me. I think he grudgingly accepted my commands, but like your dog, I could not trust him to hold sheep

without reminding him again and again, and he was tight on come by and wide on away. He responded to corrections by running faster. He was tough.

 

My daughter and I watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. He approaches every behavior problem by teaching the owner to walk their dog on a leash, in a following position. Ellie and I found this somewhat amusing. However, one day he explained to a client that the purpose was to produce a calm, submissive mind in the dog.

 

I thought about my dog. He was always tense, like a cocked pistol. He also did not ever behave submissively to me. He was obedient to commands but never submissive to corrections.

 

So I gave it a try. I made a slide collar with a piece of baling twine (always available!) and started marching him around the farm while I did my chores. It only took a couple days to effect BIG changes in this dog. He really did relax while following me and his behavior changed within our pack and around the house. He became noticeably calmer.

 

After 3 days I took him to sheep. He was much much better! When he failed to take a Lie Down command, instead of repeating it louder or giving a verbal correction, I "walked him down" without saying a word. He actually rolled over! I put him on the string and walked him off the field and tied him up. I had to do this twice and he GOT IT. We have a much better relationship now and he regards me as the undisputed leader. He can hold sheep reliably and if he's tight, I lie him down and give a (low vocal tone) come ou-u-ut.

He gives ground. I had to walk out to him last week because we had deep snow and he was committed to staying on the "path", but that was not really disobedience, it was just a training opportunity. Once he understood, he had it.

 

It's really cool! I was almost defeated by this dog, now I love him.

 

He's still a high energy dog who requires a lot of exercise and work and supervision but now that I have his cooperation, he's a joy. I expect that I will have to always be mindful of maintaining my leadership status with this pushy dog, but now that I understand it should not be a problem.

 

I know all dogs are different, but I hope this helps somebody out there.

 

Jeanne Bell

Snowshoe, WV

[Denise Wall]

Jeanne,

 

This sounds interesting. One caution - make sure you have a command or something so the dog will know it's when okay to walk in front of you. I've seen people who were really strict about young dogs staying behind them and when it was time to teach them to drive, the dog wouldn't walk in front of them to start the drive. Driving requires some independence on the dog's part. Be sure they still have some left.

[Pipedream Farm]

Along the same lines as Jeanne, it now takes some time for me to take Jody to work sheep. I now require her to stay close by while we walk out to where I will send her. I define close as within the distance I will allow her to be when I send her from my feet on an outrun. When ever she gets beyond this distance I stop and wait for her to return to my side; I will give reminder type corrections of where she should be. Once she returns I proceed. It usually takes several stops and starts to get where I was going; but by the time I get there her attitude has changed. She is now more in tune to what I want and less inclined to only do what she wants. Renee has stared doing this with Rae and has also observed a change in attitude.

 

Mark

[NancyO]

Denise,

 

I think this is a problem I've been having with am imported dog (that was very obviously taught to walk behind the handler), with the turn around the post. Didn't realize what the problem could be, until I watched another handler trying to get a young dog started on it's drive. The dog kept flanking back and forth behind the handler (the handler had taught the dog to walk behind him). It was like a lightbulb went on for me.

 

The dog I imported is 2, I've had a hard time getting him to walk forward past me when standing at the post, it would flank back and forth behind me and then very tentatively move forward. After it would get a certain distance past me it's drive would be with more authority.

 

Now that I've realized what might be happening, I have been working the dog, with me turned sideways, and with a heh, heh in an encouraging voice. At home it seems to be working. Will have to try it at the next trial.

 

Nancy O

[Denise Wall]

Nancy,

 

I think it's a problem with a lot of young dogs. And depending on the sheep, that point right at the beginning of the drive where the dog has to push sheep off you may be the most pressure they feel on the entire drive. So unfortunately, right at the point they need to be the most secure and authoritative is where they feel the least secure because of negative associations with walking past the handler.

 

I think it's a good idea to practice a command to let them know there is a time they can confidently walk in front of you. Again, along with the "train opposites" theme.

 

Just something to consider.

[Jeanne Bell]

Thanks Denise,

Glen is already driving very well. I can see how that could be a pitfall in a beginning dog.

 

Mark, I like the leash with this dog because I don't have to speak. I've found that the less I speak, the more effective I am. He's straining to hear me now that I'm not running my mouth all the time! I used to have him walk with me off leash and constantly remind him to stay with me. It was akin to nagging.

 

Jeanne

[Pipedream Farm]

Until the dog gains more confidence one thing to try is to move. Have the dog bring the sheep up to you, stop the dog, and you make the transition for the dog from fetching to driving. You can make this transition smoother by you moving while the dog is walking up (telling the dog "steady" or "there" or what every you use), this makes the change from fetching to driving faster having the inexperienced dog under pressure for less time. Remember you don't have to stand glued to the post (I'm bad about this too).

 

Jeanne, I've stopped constantly nagging the dog to stay with me; when the dog goes too far I stop walking first, wait to see if the dog will return on its own, then give a verbal correction, wait to see if the dog will return on its own, then go correct the dog for not returning. Jody has quickly learned that once I stop walking she is to return and she is in the process of learning that if she doesn't stay with me I will stop so it's better to just stay nearby.

 

Mark

[NancyO]

Denise wrote

 

Again, along with the "train opposites" theme.

Denise, not sure what you mean by this?

 

On his drive, if he is about 10ft from me, he will drive them past without a blink. It is only when I am having him do what would be a tight turn (sheep rubbing as they go past), that the problem came up. He does not do any back and forth motion on his drive, except for this back and forth behind me at the turn.

 

Nancy O

 

ps I got him just before he turned 2 and have had him less than 5 months. He didn't understand a word I said and I changed all his whistles. These dogs tolerate a lot!

[Jeanne Bell]

Mark,

That sounds like a good approach.

 

Denise,

On the independence issue. I love that part of training stockdogs. I've been working on how much is the right amount of independence. I've very quickly switched from a dog who is pushing against me all the time to a dog who started looking back at me (keeking) on the drive! I responded by keeping quiet and he went back to driving. It's so interesting.

Jeanne

[Denise Wall]

Nancy,

 

quote:

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Again, along with the "train opposites" theme.

 

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Denise, not sure what you mean by this?

Train the extremes (and everything in between). For everything you train, train the opposite of it also. I used it in my lengthy post above to remind to train "fast," as well as "slow," even in a fast dog. In this case, train them to stay behind you and to go in front of you, even if they have problems wanting to go in front of you too much.

[Pipedream Farm]

Rae has always been funny about starting the drive. This was way before I ever trained her to stay with me before working. With her, it's a balance thing. Once she gets a little ways past me, she's fine. What I sometimes do is take a small step back as I'm walking her up. It seems to do the trick. Don't know if it would work with your dog, Nancy, but it wouldn't take long to find out!