neutering, aggression, bones growing

[jasper7777]

My border collie is going to be a year old next week. I had initially planned to neuter at 14 months— I was holding off because he's sort of tall for a border collie and very spindly so I wanted to make sure his bones grew correctly and he filled out properly.

Now I'm thinking I'd better neuter him ASAP because I just started a second round of obedience classes–and this time he

is being aggressive towards the other— intact male dogs— he wasn't aggressive in the last round of classes.

I want to try to do agility with him and I want his bones to be healthy. So, should I neuter him now at 12 months

or wait till he's 14 months. Decisions, decisions. I'm also wondering if I should drop the obedience class

since it has several unneutered male dogs that people are keeping intact to breed from and I think they

are all setting each other off.

[vaporflowers]

I don't think waiting another 2 months will make a tremendous difference. I would neuter him now since you're having problems and were going to do it soon anyway. I waited until 2 years of age with my boy and while he still doesn't care for intact males, his tolerance for them has improved greatly since his neuter.

[jasper7777]

Oh good, I'm glad to hear your male was helped some by neutering. I'm going to make an appointment tomorrow.

[Rave]

You can always x-ray his growth plates to check for closure. And avoid the class if they're not closed yet. Just another option.

[Liz P]

Aggression towards other intact males is one of the few types that can be helped by neutering. Remember, it does takes weeks for the hormone levels to start to drop, but you should see a difference. I usually don't neuter males, but I did with one because I wasn't going to breed him and he was being a jerk with other males. It made life SO much more pleasant in my house!

[Journey]

I'd wait and X-Ray him and see if the growth plates have closed. Since you say he's tall and spindly already I'd hate to make him more so with a premature neuter. I also wouldn't avoid the class, you are there to "train" so train him to mind his manners and behave.

[SecretBC]

Secret is ending up freakishly long-legged and tall, likely thanks largely to her pediatric spay (rescue). If your dog is already tending towards the tall side, it wouldn't hurt to do x-rays to see where his development is at.

 

That said, if my intact boy had behaved in any way that I found unsuitable, he would have gone right in for an appointment. My "age" for him was 15-18 months, but then the little stinker went and cleaned up in the conformation ring -- So now he's 2 1/2 and still has the family jewels. Good thing he has a pleasant and friendly attitude -- I don't have room in my life for aggressive males. That said, the only dog to start a scrap with my poor little guy was a neutered male. Go figure. Laid into him when he wasn't even looking.

[njnovice]

I'd go with the x-ray route to see where his bones are. Mick was done around 14 months (I was aiming for 16), because he started marking when men came into the house. He's a skinny dog, but not spindly or bitchy looking.

[Laurae]

Secret is ending up freakishly long-legged and tall, likely thanks largely to her pediatric spay (rescue). If your dog is already tending towards the tall side, it wouldn't hurt to do x-rays to see where his development is at.

 

That said, if my intact boy had behaved in any way that I found unsuitable, he would have gone right in for an appointment. My "age" for him was 15-18 months, but then the little stinker went and cleaned up in the conformation ring -- So now he's 2 1/2 and still has the family jewels. Good thing he has a pleasant and friendly attitude -- I don't have room in my life for aggressive males. That said, the only dog to start a scrap with my poor little guy was a neutered male. Go figure. Laid into him when he wasn't even looking.

 

As I understand it, the difference in bone growth is hundredths of a millimeter, and this may not be insignificant from a utility standpoint, but I doubt Secret's "freakishly long-legged and tall"-ness is due to a pediatric spay. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to do a pediatric speuter, but a fear of a hugely dramatic change in limb size is not one of them.

 

As to your dog cleaning up in the conformation ring...no comment.

[Maralynn]

As to your dog cleaning up in the conformation ring...no comment.

 

FWIW, through looking at her blog, the conformation dog is not a BC but another small breed dog.

[SecretBC]

Yes, not that I should have to explain myself, but my intact dog is my Alaskan Klee Kai -- A breed decidedly NOT bred for their performance abilities. That said, he's quite talented at agility & weight pull.

[herdcentral]

As I understand it, the difference in bone growth is hundredths of a millimeter, and this may not be insignificant from a utility standpoint, but I doubt Secret's "freakishly long-legged and tall"-ness is due to a pediatric spay. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to do a pediatric speuter, but a fear of a hugely dramatic change in limb size is not one of them.

 

Tend to agree here. I have ACDS from similar bloodlines and the couple I waited to spay till they had matured both measured in slightly taller than my 6 month old spayed dogs. Same with the families Whippets - our un neutered dog was taller than the ones we did at 6 months old. In fact there was no difference in any aspect of their lives except my late spayed ACD has elbow dysplasia which was diagnosed long before she was spayed.

[jasper7777]

Since I posted last I decided not to get Sam neutered yet, because I don't think his bones have finished growing— even though he is a year old his shape still seems long and lanky— he still seems like a goofy puppy. Compared to my other border collies he seems a lot more clumsy in his movements like he can't quite coordinate his feet to match what his body is doing— so if you throw a ball for him to catch most of the time he jumps too high and misses and fumbles the ball. I have another border collie named Chloe and her legs are so much shorter that they look like two different breeds of dog— she never fumbles the ball. Sam's New Zealand bred and came from a person who does sheep herding trials and said that the parent dog was used on cattle. I also think he has New Zealand heading dog in his lines— which are like tall, smooth coated border collies— some are shaped more like greyhounds. Here's a good site that explains NZ heading dogs–http://woolshed1.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-zealand-farm-working-dogs-heading.html.

 

I've been practicing Sam's walking on the lead in the dog park near my house — with an aim of keeping him in perfect control at all times and focused on me. I've also been trying to practice more control over him in the house over the little things like— he has stay behind me when we go through door ways and sit stay before I play frisbee with me etc.... I'm going to be brave and go back to obedience class on Sunday and see if he's improved.

 

I just uploaded an old photo of Sam as a puppy 4-5 months — so you can see what he looks like— .

[herdcentral]

I have another border collie named Chloe and her legs are so much shorter that they look like two different breeds of dog— she never fumbles the ball.

 

I've been practicing Sam's walking on the lead in the dog park near my house — with an aim of keeping him in perfect control at all times and focused on me. I've also been trying to practice more control over him in the house over the little things like— he has stay behind me when we go through door ways and sit stay before I play frisbee with me etc.... I'm going to be brave and go back to obedience class on Sunday and see if he's improved.

 

I think that training is good! When you go to obedience make sure you work him at a slight distance to the other dogs and gradually bring him in closer as he becomes more solid.

 

Seriously though short legs dont equate to good ball catching! My shorter legged later spayed 3 yo female BC is a real ball fumbler, whereas my very long legged lanky very tall 11 month old teenager has much better skills. Some dogs just take a bit longer to develop their eye body ball coordination, some never develop it!

[juliepoudrier]

Some general comments:

Many conformation-bred border collies tend to have shorter legs than their working- or random-bred counterparts. I was dog sitting a (rescue) conformation-bred dog recently and couldn't figure out why he looked funny compared to my own dogs (I was thinking his head seemed too large) until someone else pointed out the obvious: his legs were much shorter than those of any of my dogs....

 

Re: Height and early neuter, Laura has a Twist pup who was the runt of the litter. He is now quite tall--by far the tallest dog in the litter and clearly taller than my male, Pip, who was neutered at 2 and weighs close to 50 pounds. We joke that Nick looks like a greyhound, especially when he turns on the afterburners after running livestock. He was neutered quite late--I want to say he was at least 3 before he had the surgery. Clearly, neither early neuter nor birth/pup size was predictive of his adult height.

 

Re: Comments about conformation showing, yes, you have a right to do whatever you want with your dogs. But when you post about conformation showing/championships on a board as anti-AKC (and expecially anti-conformation showing) as this one is, you might expect that someone would raise an eyebrow. It doesn't even matter if it's another breed--buying into the AKC conformation show philosophy is certainly at odds with the main philosophy of this forum, and it sends a message that you see no harm in the practice of breeding and showing for conformation. You may feel you don't have to defend yourself, but seriously you should consider your audience as well....

 

J.

[SecretBC]

If a person cared enough to educate themselves on such things, they would know that the Alaskan Klee Kai is not an AKC recognized breed. My only experience in the conformation world has been through UKC. I don't care for the politics of AKC at all.

 

And for the record, Kaiser is approaching three and has never been used for breeding. And again, AKK are not bred for any purpose other than companion dogs, so I'm not really getting how showing them in conformation could be considered offensive to those against showing a working-bred dog in conformation. Apples & oranges. Not everyone in this world desires a working breed.

 

For non-working, non-sporting, not-for-specific-use type dogs, conformation showing is the benchmark for providing sound, quality breeding stock. You may disagree, to each their own -- But I prefer to know that if my dog ends up contributing to the gene pool, at least he has been marked an exceptional specimen of his breed prior to doing so. And I just so happen to enjoy showing in conformation and find it fun. These days I typically only enter conformation events held in conjunction with a sporting event, so that I can take pride in how versatile and well-rounded my dog is. I happen to be offended by anyone who degrades or devalues that achievement.