Where can we learn ?

[River]

Hi people,

 

Where does a person learn to work sheep as a total starter ? Are there places that will train people and their dogs, when there is no chance of owning our own sheep ?

 

I have done agility and obedience and a little fly ball..but have always marveled at collies working what they were bred for.

 

Does anyone feel it would be wrong to fuel a dogs desire to herd, if he couldnt work sheep daily ? My pup is just 17 weeks old and laid back as collies go ..he is going to be too heavey (in my opinion) for agility and I am thinking what else he might enjoy.

[jenfitzh20]

Sure you can learn w/o sheep! Pam from Atchison is my herding instructor and she teaches several of us city folk (well I used to be a country girl ) how to handle our dogs. I will admit there are a few out there that don't have the patience or desire to work with people that don't have sheep or need a working dog but there are those like Pam that relish watching us make fools of ourselves LOL!

 

I certainly am not one that believes showing your dog how to properly herd is a bad thing. Fynn is happy as a clam after a day of herding (wish my legs could say the same...stop laughing Pam). We all thought Fynn was a lost cause after his first few tries (ok first few months...OK, years) but he is finally starting to get with the program...yes yes, I know, *I* am starting to get w/the program (slow learner ). Showing him how to use his natural ability and learning how to work WITH him instead of us fighting each other constantly, has been an invaluable experience..for both of us. Now of course, I have that stinkin desire to buy land and sheep, thats the only down side .

 

I say ask around, there is someone out there willing to help you and your dog and you'd regret it if you didn't try it just once!

[Eileen Stein]

This is going to be very much a minority view, and I've hesitated for a few days before deciding to say it.

 

If you have no livestock that need herding, and have no livestock background, it is going to require a HUGE commitment from you to get your dog to the point of being a useful working dog. I don't think many people in that position are going to want to make that kind of commitment. And why would they? They don't really need a working dog.

 

OTOH, if you don't care about getting your dog to that high a level but just want to give him a fun experience, I think there are ethical considerations that shouldn't be overlooked. Sheep are living beings, they're not dog toys. Most talented border collies are pretty hard on sheep at first, and sometimes for quite a while thereafter. They're wild and chase, and often grip. Sheep will be panicked, they can be injured, and rarely they can die. Putting this kind of stress on sheep is justifiable if you're serious about developing the dog into a disciplined useful working dog, because it's really unavoidable. But is it justifiable just for fun, when you and your dog could have just as much fun doing things where your equipment is inanimate and living beings are not harassed?

 

If you are passionately drawn to herding, I wouldn't tell you not to do it. But if it's just something you think you might like to dabble in, maybe you would want to balance these considerations before deciding to go ahead.

 

The other downside is that you might become addicted and have your life changed forever. People often speak of this with a smiley, but don't let that obscure the truth that it can become an addiction that turns your life upside down as much as any other addiction, into something you wouldn't have chosen if your reason were in full control.

 

Not the cheeriest answer you're going to get, but just something to consider.

[Caroline]

Bravo Eileen,

I agree with you and thanks for saying it. I can see it will be hard for some to hear.

I was someone once who thought I could go herding once a week and train my dog. It was fun. Sometimes there is someone that trains and "rents" sheep while training it probably is ok if they are pretty experienced on reading sheep and handling livestock. I even bought my five acres and have a pole building that was for the sheep and continued training. My dog is now 12 and I love him dearly. His time has passed for training like that but everything we do together is a joy (well except for nail trimming *laugh*).

Training a dog to a high level of skill with sheep takes daily work mostly I think. From watching others and going to trials and talking to sheperds. Thanks for writing your opinion.

Caroline and Charlie

[Pipedream Farm]

"If you have no livestock that need herding, and have no livestock background, it is going to require a HUGE commitment from you to get your dog to the point of being a useful working dog."

 

"The other downside is that you might become addicted and have your life changed forever."

 

Guilty. That was us about 6 years ago; we've since moved selling a nice house on 1 acre that was significanlty closer to my work, bought 6 acres, built a house, bought a bigger vehicle (twice) to transport our growing number of dogs, bought a trailer and then a bigger one for trialing, increased our number of dogs, got sheep, started learning about caring for sheep, started selling lambs to my coworkers for their freezers (to help pay for the sheep), and dropped out of agility (no time to do both well). Dabbling is not something I'd recommend since it takes so much time and money to progress; but if you're serious about herding get ready for the lifestyle changes. We were raised in suburbia and we'll never go back.

 

Mark

 

Oh, buy some work clothes; dog hair won't be the worst thing you'll get on your clothes. :eek:

[Bill Fosher]

Here's something that tells me a lot. I have been approached many times -- probably a couple of dozen now -- by people who have Border collies who want to come out to the farm and have them "play with sheep" or "chase some sheep" or "see if he's interested in sheep."

 

My stock answer is that I'd be happy to have them come out for a visit, but that I won't have their dogs chasing sheep or playing with them. If they're interested in teaching their dogs to work, I'm interested in helping them.

 

About half of the people back out right at that moment. The other half take my business card. Out of these, I have heard from two people. One has actually come here to work.

 

The commitment involved in making an appointment and showing up is too much for many people.

 

If you can make it over that threshold, and are willing to exchange some work for learning a real skill (you can't train your dog to work sheep until you know a little bit about working sheep yourself) I think you'd be welcome at most sheep farms.

 

As far as offering the dog daily work, I don't think that's really necessary. Most of our dogs don't work every day, except perhaps in the summer when we're out on grazing contracts. But as Eileen said, the level of commitment has to be pretty high in order for your dog to really get anything out of the experience, whether it's daily, weekly, monthly or whatever.

[Pam Wolf]

Ditto Bill !

 

Jennifer is one of those who crossed the threshold and her dog Fynn has been a real learning experience for me. He is one tought nut to crack. Being a rescue he came with many 'issues' and over time he is working thru these, including his attitude on work.. But he is progressing and is showing some very nice work when he's relaxed. Will he ever become a great trial dog? Who knows. Will Jennifer learn (and she has already been bitten by the herding bug ), YES !

 

I too will not allow people to abuse the stock and refuse any who just want to come out and let their doggies chase the sheepies. I also keep a small group of very well dog broke goats and they tend to convince those doggies it's not nice to 'chase' the goats

 

Pam

[River]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

This is going to be very much a minority view, and I've hesitated for a few days before deciding to say it.

 

 

Not the cheeriest answer you're going to get, but just something to consider.

Hi and thankyou, I honestly asked because I wanted honest opinions..else why would I ask at all

 

You gave me alot to think about and it had never occured to me young inexperienced dogs would terrorize sheep I think I should hold off on this until I am in a situation where I could afford the finanicial expenses this would inccur. (ie sheep therapy... aw hole flock thats going to be pricey!)

 

Although the idea of working on a sheep farm for rewards sounds great, I will look into that around this area. I didnt want him to chase a few sheep for laughs..I want him working happily under control, using his brain and agility.

 

Thanks everyone for sharing their views and experience...I shall let you know if any farmer takes us under their wing and if not I am thinking of joining a tracking class to keep him busy He is mad about tracking in the snow at the moment.

[INU]

umm... this gave me a lot to think about too.

 

What if you train your dog once a week when you can't afford your own ranch/farm?

Would that be enough to start?

 

I made an apointment with this instructor this weekend. She said she could do an "instinct evaluation". After getting everyone's opinions about when to start hearding, I've decided to at least try this. She is 6 and half months old.

 

I do realize I have to be very comitted and it can be expensive. I can afford once a week for now but if that's not enough, maybe I should wait till I can do it more intensively.

 

Also, because I am a newbie, the lady is handling until I learn enough from her.

 

Any opinions?

[juliepoudrier]

INU,

If you want the trainer to handle your dog till you know better what to do, okay, but you actually learn by doing. And personally I wouldn't let *anyone* handle my dog until I had seen them work dogs and knew enough about it to know that they knew what they were doing and weren't going to do something with my dog to screw it up. Does that make sense? If you have seen this instructor working dogs and are happy with her techniques and style of handling, then it probably won't hurt to let her work your dog. BUT, if you know nothing about her, then I think you're taking a risk. Also you need to decide what you want from yourself and your dog. If you think you might ultimately want to trial at the open level in USBCHA trials, then the person teaching you should at least be able to compete at that level.

 

And I do know of at least one person who has trialled successfully while taking the dog to training once or twice a week. Not the best way to do it, but it can be done, if you are dedicated and work at it. it really comes down to why you want to do this. If it's just so that your dog can "have a little fun," then it's probably not something to consider. Your dog can have fun doing flyball or agility. If you truly enjoy livestock and working with livestock, as I do, then training your dog to herd can open up a whole new world for you.

 

J.

P.S. I have replied to your message as well.

[Sue in France]

I live in an area which is riddled with poultry farms. The most common bird is the duck and these have to be taken out of huge hangars in the morning and put back in at night. Often they have to be split into groups for sale etc. The most useful dog to do this is the BC.

Now I know it isn't usual to use the BC for herding ducks but it is a solution. They are cheap. They flock, they are pressure sensitive, they are easy to keep, they can be very funny...try pushing six or eight through a small gate or over a small bridge...kids love watching it. Often very experienced people here do demonstrations with ducks (or geese) since they are easy to transport.One man I know plays "bluebird" with the kids in a circleand the ducks in the middle and he herds the ducks between the kids' feet.

If you get tired of "playing" with them, you can dispose of them as you see fit. I usually let mine go on the river.

Just a suggestion...

Sue

[juliepoudrier]

Sue,

Are you saying that you "release" your domesticated ducks into the wild when you are through using them for herding training? Did you ever consider the environmental impact of that choice, not to mention the fact that domesticated ducks aren't meant for "life" in the wild? And before you say that other people do it and the ducks get along just fine, well, maybe so, but that doesn't make the practice right.

 

J.

[Sue in France]

Could you please explain "environmental impact" of half a dozen ducks?

I never clip their wings so they can escape any predators which are few and far between due to the hunters who keep foxes down so that their income, ducks, may live??

We live in a very duck-friendly environment.

 

Sue

[juliepoudrier]

Well, Sue, perhaps a one-time release of half a dozen ducks wouldn't have a huge impact, but are you the *only* person who does this? Did it ever occur to you that releasing domesticated species is how native species become surplanted? I'm sure if you did a quick Google search you could find plenty of examples of the environmental impact of such actions. Your argument that the lack of foxes and lack of clipped wings makes the birds safe is like saying "I got tired of the cat so I threw it out to fend for itself, but it's okay because it still has its claws and the local farmers have chained up their dogs, so it has a good chance of survival." Please!

 

J.

[Sue in France]

Thee are virtually no wild species of ducks, geese, swans, on the rivers in this area. The rivers are used primarily to irrigate the cereal crops which are planted near them. There are, however, tens of thousands of ducks bred for kill. A majority never see water beynd a puddle after it rains though smaller breeders do offer ponds. If they happen to have one.

I also live just outside a village of 200 people and the nearest house is 750 yards away. Our sum total of envinronmental impact on what is a very balanced farming area is evidently very small. Since the inhabitants are making a living out of the enviroment I should I can say categorically that anything that upsets their income is immediately mentioned.

The only thing bordering the rivers here is maize fields...ducks just love it. Noone builds a house near the river...too damp. Too many pumps going in the summer. The ground is too rich to waste on houses. I am the only one around here kind enough to put ducks onto rivers. Anyone else would have decapitated them and eaten them. Hell, I even bought a turkey still alive the night before Christmas and kept it here on the farm. I guess someone might think that was cruel or non-environmentally friendly too...for some reason thought up by those who live in cities.

I raise sheep. I care for them and look after them, catering to their every need until I send them off to the abbatoir just like anyone else who raises meat. But at around five months old, they die.Even the ones I have helped into the world and bottle fed.If you deal with animals, you have to expect that sooner or later they will die. If they don't die, I don't eat.

I can't keep ducks here ad infinitum. They are dirty,(my pond is right near the front door and the duck shit isn't carpet-friendly.) I don't believe they should be shut up or deprived of water. I don't even want them in an enclosure since they are meant to be at liberty.I keep them enclosed for the few weeks I have them (only ever had any ducks here twice) but my bitch has a REAL taste for them. I guess I could shut her up too but hey, she's seven in March and is a pleasure to have around. There doesn't happen to be a branch of Duck Rescue in this area. If I gave them to the neighbours they would be canned confit the next day.

Tell me, Julie, what would a girl from Elizabeth City do with them?

Which all says nothing about the fact that they make excellent subjects to train on if you don't have sheep. What you do with them afterwards is your personal business.

Sue

[juliepoudrier]

Sue,

It seems that like many people who do silly things you have justified your actions for yourself quite nicely. After all, if duck poop in your pond is such a problem well then don't get ducks. I suppose sheep poop comes out of the carpet more easily? Right now I don't happen to have any ducks, but I do have chickens, and while they are allowed to free range, they are put up at night for their safety. When I had a second flock and could not keep them, I found someone else who wanted chickens and gave them to that person. In any case, I would not have turned them loose to fend for themselves, since at least in this *farm* country (names of places can be deceiving you know) we have an abundance of raptors, foxes, raccons, etc. (this area was also once part of the Great Dismal Swamp) and so turning them loose would be unkind--better to wring their necks myself than to expect them, domesticated animals, to fend for themselves in the wild. Oh, and it's silly to compare the few ducks you kept for dog training with the birds bred for market. That would be like me saying my chickens should be set free to make up for the 100s of thousands of birds on the Perdue-sponsored farms in this part of NC who are bred strictly for market. But as I've already said, you will do what you wish and justify it any way you wish. I'm simply pointing out that I think what you've done is wrong. You may not like to hear that, but folks often don't like to have their bad behavior pointed out to them. And it's obvious to me that this is a pointless discussion, as you will continue to attempt to justify your actions without ever considering if what you did was truly fair to the animals.

 

Oh and trying to say that farming has no impact on the environment is disingenuous at best. Justify, justify, justify, but it doesn't change the truth.

 

J.

[Sue in France]

Julie,

Watch my lips.

We don't have predators liks the ones you mentioned. I already explained that.

And my sheep do not live/poop outside my front room door.

I explained what my neighbours would do with any ducks I sent their way.

And ducks still make excellent training for BC's.

What you do with them...keep them, give them away or put them in the freezer, it's the same with sheep.

Of all the sheep bred, very few are kept for reproduction. Most are on your plate.

Sue

[juliepoudrier]

Sue, you can have the last word as I will not be responding to you any more--just not worth the trouble really. Besides I'm not sure what your latest comments have to do with the discussion, but then somehow that doesn't surprise me.

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

Sue,

 

The problem is that it is not responsible to turn any domesticated animal loose to fend for itself. It's that simple. It doesn't matter where you live or what your neighbors think. I've been racking my brain trying to come up with a single example of where it might be a good idea to set a domesticated animal, raised and kept in captivity, loose into the countryside. I can't think of a single damn one.

 

I'm not real cool with the idea of keeping livestock merely as dog toys -- and TREATING them like dog toys. That goes for ducks as well as for sheep.

 

It would be far, far more responsible for you to decapitate your ducks and eat them, as your neighbors do. If you don't want to eat them, feed them to your dogs. If you don't like them and aren't sentimental about them, why is this a problem for you?

[Sue in France]

TBH I am surprised that anyone not living or, I think I am right in saying, ever visiting my environment should tell/advise me on what is or isn't good for maintaining it.

If you assume that for some reason I have yet to see justified, it is "wrong" to release ducks to a river, I would love to see a factual series of reasons why. Ones that apply here.

If you say it isn't safe for the ducks, then they will end up as dead as if I had decaptiated them so no difference there.

Domestic ducks are not carrying disease..;they have been properly vaccinated.

I have already said the predator control around here is very important and very effective.

As for using animals as "toys" then turn around and talk to all those who own a few sheep and use them as "toys".

I prefer to release ducks and let them take their chances in a natural process. 6 ducks in an area of thousands of hectares is no big deal.

 

Sue

[Sue in France]

Melanie, upon reflection I have to apologise for my curt reply to your more reasonable message.

I too dislike toy animals and the ducks I mentioned were for demonstration purposes. I was going away for a while and had to be rid of them.

Further I felt that my first message to the thread was a reasonable reply to the question of where to train in the absence of sheep. The subsequent telling off I got was never backed with any substantive evidence that my actions were harming the envronment in any way. I felt that the response was from a textbook and as such, a generality. One cannot speak for all environments...they are too diverse.

In addition the reply had nothing to do with the main premise that working a small group of ducks as a beginner's solution to lack of sheep is a possible course of action. What you do with your ducks is not my business. Likewise the inverse.

So far I have not heard any real reason why what I did in this situation was not acceptable. I tried to avoid, for the sake of any vegetarians or animal rights members, was saying that whether a duck is eaten by a fox or a human is immaterial. I prefer to give it a chance.

If you want to continue the discussion I suggest you contact me privately.However please refrain from the example we heard earlier and avoid speaking to me as if I were a ten year old child.

 

Sue

[Pipedream Farm]

Sue,

 

I don't want to get into the right or wrong of your release; however, you asked for evidence of how a release of non-native (or domesticated instead of wild) animals into an environment could possibly be a problem.

 

Starlings are not native to North America; they were purposely introduced in a relatively small number (60 in 1890 and 40 in 1891) but are quickly expanding their numbers and range.

 

 

"Within seventy years starlings had usurped the continental United States and most of Canada. By 1970 they had reached the Arctic Circle. The current population of starlings in North America ranges from over two hundred million to estimates as high as a billion. Starlings force native species such as bluebirds, woodpeckers, flickers and purple martins out of their natural habitats." from Don Wesley

 

 

Wildlife Damage Management Series European Starlings

 

Introduced Species Summary Project European Starling

 

Another example is the purposely released Northern Snakehead Fish into Maryland waterways.

 

UF STUDY FINDS FERAL CAT COLONIES THREATEN ENDANGERED SPECIES NATIONWIDE

 

"Introduced species

After habitat loss, the biggest threat to biodiversity is invasion by non-native species. These have arrived mainly through trade, tourism and for biological control. The Galapagos Islands have almost as many introduced species as native ones. Invasive plant species already cover 400,000 sq km of the US, and are spreading at a rate of 12,000 sq km a year. Non-native species alter habitat by changing the vegetation, competing with native species, and preying on native species.

 

The opossum shrimp was introduced in Flathead Lake in Montana and in other lakes and reservoirs in the USA to provide an extra food source for economically important salmon. Unfortunately, the introduced shrimps ate so many native small crustaceans, which were the primary food source of salmon, that the salmon fishery collapsed. The loss of salmon as a food source adversely affected populations of bald eagles and grizzly bears." from BBC

 

While these examples are not exactly the same as your case; they are examples of the potential problems associated of the release of a species not normally present in the environment.

 

Mark

[Sue in France]

Thank you Mark for some hard facts at last.

I found the information interesting and of course we have our own problems like those you wrote about here. The Coypu was accidentally released into the wild as someone was shipping them from one place to another and they are now a problem on some rivers.

However I can tell you that your last sentence is where the local truth lies. Ducks here regularly escape their farms and "go wild". I periodically find them in ditches, along the rivrs and in the fields. I usually pick them up and return them to the nearest duck farmer who, even if it isn't his, is pleased to add another to his flock. I do not by any means find them all. There are places here I don't take the dogs because the fencing around the duck population is tenuous and I don't want to disturb the flock so they won't fly/scramble off.

I don't have the figures for the annual loss to escape of these market ducks but if my own experience is a true reflection, I'd estimate between 1 and 2%...of thousands.

The environment seems to be quite stable...I read agricultural journals and stats regularly. And since, as I said, there is very little other wildlife in and on the rivers because they are used exclusively for irrigation, and if anything has upset that balance it is the presence of man,I honestly can't understand the hoo-haa about 6 ducks.

But thanks for takaing the time to offer some real as opposed to frantic information.

Sue

[Pipedream Farm]

Sue,

 

we also have a problem with Coypu (called Nutria here). Here is a US government website on our Invasive Species.

 

My favorite is Kudzu which our tax dollars paid to have people plant and now is paying to remove. "During the Great Depression of the 1930s, the Soil Conservation Service promoted kudzu for erosion control. Hundreds of young men were given work planting kudzu through the Civilian Conservation Corps. Farmers were paid as much as eight dollars an acre as incentive to plant fields of the vines in the 1940s." If you've ever visited the southeastern US you know how invasive Kudzu can be.

 

This uniformed purposeful introduction of non-native species has been (and is) repeated often. These unfortunate actions are what I base my caution and reluctance on about the release of non-native species into the environment. As you already stated, we (those of us not in your area) don't know or understand your environmental conditions. All I ask is be cognizant of possible ramifications of the release of non-native species.

 

Mark

 

P.S. now that this thread has been totally hijacked; perhaps we can let it die or get back on topic.

[Sue in France]

AMEN!!

I feel everything that should be said has just been said.

 

In the end, ducks STILL are great solutions to lack of sheep/space problems.

Once you work them they become more muscly and of no interest to duck farmers. Mine used to use the barn roof as a runway to practise Concorde-style landings into my pond. My goldfish lived at submarine depth for weeks.

However...a propos of sheep, if you aren't a real owner of a viable flock, they too are just toys.

 

Sue