milk thistle and Sam-E

[juliepoudrier]

I need to put Willow on liver support and with searching I have found that she should get 30% of the human dose of milk thistle (so one 175 mg tablet) and 20 mg/kg of Sam-E. I also read that the milk thistle is better given in three or four small doses (open the capsules, divide, and syringe down the dog if necessary) but that the Sam-E tabs should never be broken and to just round up to the next largest available size. Does this sound right to those of you who have used these products? Thanks!

 

J.

[bc friend]

I didn't use SAM-E but the milk thistle dosage sounds right - I gave it twice a day with food to Sara. You might also want to talk to your vet about Denosyl, a neutraceutical that supports the liver as well. Hope Willow does well.

[rushdoggie]

I give my oldest Papillon SAM-e and my understanding is that it is supposed to be absorbed in the small intestine, so it has a coating on it that helps prevent it from breaking down in the stomach. That's why it shouldn't be cut or crushed.

 

I hate it, the tablet is huge and my small dog has a partially collapsed trachea and the thing makes him cough going down whole. I'm on the hunt of a smaller tablet.

[kajarrel]

Hi Julie,

Quite a while back I posted about my Yeats dog who was in liver failure. We've had him on Denamarin (one large dog cap q a.m.) for at least a year, along with Milk Thistle, 1 human cap in the p.m. He's plugging along. I haven't had his liver enzymes rechecked since he's a real hard stick, but I've been following him clinically and he's no longer jaundiced . . . I just recently discontinued the milk thistle. I'd suggest looking up the instructions and dose for Denamarin (since it contains the compounds you're interested in) - sorry, I'm running to class or I'd do this for you.

 

Best of luck - I hope your results are as good as our's have been (and thanks to everyone who supported us and provided advice back then!)

 

Kim

[AK dog doc]

Also on the sam-e, it should be given on an empty stomach and followed with food an hour later (the amino acids in the food aid in the metabolism of it, and the empty stomach increases the chances of it a) exiting the stomach before breaking down, and b ) hitting a more alkaline pH in the stomach than in a fed animal, also in the interest of having the pill exit the stomach before being broken down.)

 

FWIW, I've had pretty good results with that protocol (although I generally use Denemarin, a combined product; Denosyl is the single-product sam-e).... my assessment of efficacy being based on clinical response and repeat bloodwork.

[rushdoggie]

Also on the sam-e, it should be given on an empty stomach and followed with food an hour later (the amino acids in the food aid in the metabolism of it, and the empty stomach increases the chances of it a) exiting the stomach before breaking down, and b ) hitting a more alkaline pH in the stomach than in a fed animal, also in the interest of having the pill exit the stomach before being broken down.)

 

FWIW, I've had pretty good results with that protocol (although I generally use Denemarin, a combined product; Denosyl is the single-product sam-e).... my assessment of efficacy being based on clinical response and repeat bloodwork.

 

 

I just Go_gled that and see it available as a chewable? Have you used that version and have you seen good results? I hate pill-ing the small dog with the big tablet, I'd love to try the chewable!

[juliepoudrier]

Then there's someone like me, whose dog wouldn't eat a chewable if her life depended on it, and yet some of her meds are these *giant* chewable tablets that I am then required to shove down her throat. I wish they'd make much smaller non-chewable versions of everything.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

Then there's someone like me, whose dog wouldn't eat a chewable if her life depended on it, and yet some of her meds are these *giant* chewable tablets that I am then required to shove down her throat. I wish they'd make much smaller non-chewable versions of everything.

 

J.

 

 

He may not either, this can be cut. I feel like such a horrible person shoving this huge pill down his throat every night, watching him gag on it, and then sometimes cough for 20 minutes.

[C Crocker]

Hi Julie,

Quite a while back I posted about my Yeats dog who was in liver failure. We've had him on Denamarin (one large dog cap q a.m.) for at least a year, along with Milk Thistle, 1 human cap in the p.m. He's plugging along. I haven't had his liver enzymes rechecked since he's a real hard stick, but I've been following him clinically and he's no longer jaundiced . . . I just recently discontinued the milk thistle. I'd suggest looking up the instructions and dose for Denamarin (since it contains the compounds you're interested in) - sorry, I'm running to class or I'd do this for you.

 

Best of luck - I hope your results are as good as our's have been (and thanks to everyone who supported us and provided advice back then!)

 

Kim

 

 

Here are the doses for Denamarin 12-34# one pill 225 mg S-Adenosylmethione 9 mg silybin A + B

 

35-65# one pill 425 mg " " 35 mg ' "

 

I didnt put in the smallest dose not the two largest doses as I would guess your dog is not over 65#?

 

I took my 6 yr old Border Collie bitch in for routine pre-breeding bloodwork and was surprised to find her liver ALT enzyme was too high. So had liver ( and every other organ she owns) u/s -all looked good. Waited one week retest blood and did acid bile test. ALT the same and flunked the bile acid test. So onto the Denamrin and liver diet dog food. So two days ago, after being on Denamarin and changed food she had a good blood report-all back to normal. I found this all to be very scary as she had no symptoms and before the first blood test I had gone to three big trials with her in two months. If I had not gone for routine blood work I would have never treated her. As my vet said her liver might haved healed itself and of course we will never know if the treatment and change of diet did it or tincture of time, but my bet would be on the treatment.

 

I wish the best of luck to all of you who have dogs with liver problems , as well of course, any health problems. I admit to losing sleep with worry during this time.

 

Carolyn

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I chose not to go with the vet formulas to save money, since I had both milk thistle and SAMe here on hand. I'm hoping that between these nutraceuticals and the antibiotics the vet put her on she'll start feeling well enough to eat.

 

Carolyn, Willow's only real symptom was inappetance. We did an ultrasound to make sure that her mast cell tumors hadn't spread internally but found nothing. Bloodwork showed elevated liver enzymes and bilirubin, and cystocentesis indicated a bladder infection. At this point the oncologist can't say if what's going on with her liver is infection-related or tumor-related. He was surprised that the liver was normal via ultrasound given the blood panel. He mentioned doing a liver aspiration, but at this point I just want to try antibiotics and liver support and see if we can't get things back closer to normal that way. She's off her chemo meds for now as well.

 

My main concern is to get her eating again.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I'd email Dr Dodds at Hemopet and ask her about the dosing. I'm remembering a much higher dose of the milk thistle when we've used it.

 

Don't know about the sam-e For cancers my vet uses a combination of maple syrup and non-aluminum baking soda as a supplement - I think to increase alkalinity. Homeopathics for nausea and anorexia. Her success rate is somewhat legendary in the local dog community - for both prolonging life and increase quality of it. Do you have a holistic vet who can offer some ideas?

 

Also, for the anorexia don't forget the old standby of italian seasoning to stimulate appetite. Dr Dodds suggested that once and it's been an extremely helpful tip.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Wendy,

Right now it appears that what's going on with her liver is not related to the cancer. High liver values alone can cause nausea, so the idea is that the antibiotics will take care of an ascending infection and the SAMe and milk thistle will provide liver support and hopefully help to bring all the chemistry values down. If we can get the liver values closer to normal, then her appetite should come back. The resource I'm using for the dose for milk thistle quotes Dodds' recommendations (30% of the human dose for a dog Willow's weight). The person quoting Dodds actually doses at a higher rate, but since apparently overdosing with milk thistle can cause GI issues, I'm erring on the side of caution here, given Willow's loss of appetite--no need to accidentally make things worse.

 

I've been tempting her with ground lamb and venison (cooked because I don't think her system is healthy enough to deal with raw and cooking makes it smell good), which are two favorite foods here. That said, I've also started just syringing baby food down her as well. I think it's likely that the less she eats the less she feels like eating, and if I can get some food in her, then that will also help to start a turnaround, if there's going to be one.

 

The other thing I was wondering about, and considering doing, but need to talk to the vet first, is just taking her off most of her meds for a brief period. I've been shoving everything in to her, but I can't help but wonder if all the meds going in and no real food isn't just exacerbating the problem.

 

I no longer have a holistic vet locally and will probably consult one if I can't get things resolved quickly. The main problem with that is that I am *still* unemployed and money is a very real issue. CareCredit is the only reason I've been able to afford all that I've done so far....

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I wouldn't go over Dr Dodd's recommendations either.

 

I agree in no-raw for a dog with liver issues. Dodds explained in more detail, but basically the bacteria from a sick dog's too slow gut can allow for bacterial back up and result in hepatitis.

 

For Jo one of the high powered helpers was Seacure, a protein supplement of hydrolysed/dehydrated white fish. It's pure protein, a powder that they can eat, drink, or be syringed with, and it helps immensely with gaining weight. The product was originally developed for starving children in 3rd world countries. It's expensive, but very worth it.

[C Crocker]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I chose not to go with the vet formulas to save money, since I had both milk thistle and SAMe here on hand. I'm hoping that between these nutraceuticals and the antibiotics the vet put her on she'll start feeling well enough to eat.

 

Carolyn, Willow's only real symptom was inappetance. We did an ultrasound to make sure that her mast cell tumors hadn't spread internally but found nothing. Bloodwork showed elevated liver enzymes and bilirubin, and cystocentesis indicated a bladder infection. At this point the oncologist can't say if what's going on with her liver is infection-related or tumor-related. He was surprised that the liver was normal via ultrasound given the blood panel. He mentioned doing a liver aspiration, but at this point I just want to try antibiotics and liver support and see if we can't get things back closer to normal that way. She's off her chemo meds for now as well.

 

My main concern is to get her eating again.

 

J.

 

 

Julie,

 

I hope for the best outcome for willow and that she starts getting her appetite back soon. It sounds as though you have done quite a bit of research on her problems and you sure are going the distance.

 

My dog's problem seems so minimal since we got the liver values and bile acid test values back to normal. I know how worried I was ( and maybe still am a bit) and here your Willow has a real situation. So good luck to both of you. I will keep good thoghts for her progress.

 

Carolyn

[Lenajo]

re the baby food - I had a lot of trouble find baby food without onion in it for Lena. Even those that were labeled as one ingredient only. just a fyi on that. Onion is the last thing she needs.

[juliepoudrier]

Wendy,

I was looking at ingredients yesterday, and some clearly stated onion powder on the label and some did not, so I assumed I was safe going with the products that didn't list it as an ingredient.

 

The surprising thing was that there were so few choices of any meat-based prodcuts--lots of veggies and fruits though.

 

J.

[Laura L]

How's Willow doing today has her appetite gotten any better?

Laura

[Lenajo]

Wendy,

I was looking at ingredients yesterday, and some clearly stated onion powder on the label and some did not, so I assumed I was safe going with the products that didn't list it as an ingredient.

 

The surprising thing was that there were so few choices of any meat-based prodcuts--lots of veggies and fruits though.

 

J.

 

Most babies don't want much meat until they are older and toothier

 

I made my own with cooked ground and drained lamb towards the end with Lena. She liked the taste of it a lot better.

[juliepoudrier]

Good news on Willow. She ate some browned ground lamb and some canned chicken breast last night, and actually ate it with something akin to gusto. Nighttime is usually her good eating time, so the real test was this morning when I gave her more of the same. It looked like a lot, but she ate it all. So I'm hoping that the clavamox is doing its job and between the meds and me getting something in her stomach yesterday through a syringe we have managed to turn things around for her.

 

Wendy, I thought about cooking and pureeing stuff for her, but don't have the necessary kitchen equipment to do it. I actually added water to the baby food to get it to a consistency that could be sucked into (and out of) a tube-feeding syringe, added her milk thistle to that (since it was recommended that one capsule be divided among several doses throughout the day) and fed/dosed her several times yesterday and again today.

 

Thanks for the good thoughts and advice!

 

J.

[bc friend]

Good to hear she's eating. Hopefully she's on the mend.

[Little Bo Boop]

Julie, did you know that milk thistle comes in liquid form as well, in a bottle with a dropper...you might try that. You also might look into a product called Dyne. It's a high caloric liquid supplement, for use in dogs, horses, sheep...I've used it on my old dogs and my old horse and they seem to do well on it. It smells like vanilla, and the dogs seem to love it. You can also just syringe it into their mouths. I think it's like 150 calories per ounce. I think most feed stores carry it.

[Maralynn]

Wendy, I thought about cooking and pureeing stuff for her, but don't have the necessary kitchen equipment to do it. I actually added water to the baby food to get it to a consistency that could be sucked into (and out of) a tube-feeding syringe, added her milk thistle to that (since it was recommended that one capsule be divided among several doses throughout the day) and fed/dosed her several times yesterday and again today.

 

Thanks for the good thoughts and advice!

 

J.

 

A baby food grinder like this one could make it quick and easy to puree foods for her. You can get them at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target for $10-15. My mom used to make all of her baby food with one - very simple to use and clean.

[juliepoudrier]

Betty,

I didn't know that--I just happened to have the capsules on hand, so that's what I started with. Thanks to you and Maralynn for the info. Hopefully I won't need it now (though I'm going to store it in my mind--ha!--because I expect sooner or later I'll be revisiting this issue again, especially with three geriatrics), since she ate most of her breakfast (it was more than she usually eats for breakfast, so not surprised she left a little behind). At least when I put the bowl in her crate, she's putting her face in it and starting to eat right away vs. just looking at it like "what the hell is that, and I ain't gonna eat it."

 

In a new twist, she had diarrhea yesterday (yegads! does it never end?), but I've gotten two doses of slippery elm in her by mixing it with some canned chicken....

 

She also seems to be having renewed incontinence issues at night. I am going to wait a bit and see if the abx helps (since she apparently has a bladder infection along with whatever's going on with her liver) with that before I consider increasing her dose of PPA. I actually set the alarm last night to get up and let her out so we wouldn't have a 4 a.m. accident....

 

But in general, I really do think she feels better.

 

J.

[Maralynn]

At least when I put the bowl in her crate, she's putting her face in it and starting to eat right away vs. just looking at it like "what the hell is that, and I ain't gonna eat it."

 

- snip-

 

But in general, I really do think she feels better.

 

J.

 

Oh good!