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Cowsavy
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I have come to the point where I need a training Collar on some of my dogs. I was wondering if anyone had any susjustions on which type is the best. I have been looking at the Tri-tronics Pro 500xl (the two dog model) Does any one use training collars and if so what kind do you sujust.

I also know if used improperly they can do more harm than good.I have never used one but have seen the results of some miss uses of them. If any one has any pointers on them it would be a great help

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Hi,

 

I don't have any advice for the type of collar to use, but I just wanted to say that I have never seen one used correctly. The temptation is just too strong to use it when you lose your temper. I have seen several people use them, and tell me that they just use it for one specific problem- but I can see that they don't realize that they are using it our of anger. It only takes a few times to use it wrongly to really screw up the dog's head. I noticed that dogs with electric collar training lose confidence, and will start being too dependant on commands. Not to mention they get that "twitch" look in their eyes that is unmistakeable. Personally, I wouldn't use one unless it was a serious, life threatening problem off of stock (like car chasing) or barking.

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I have an electronic collar. I can't tell you the make, it was purchased years ago and I'm not at home to look it up.

 

I would only use it as a last resort. Your timing has to be perfect or the dog just becomes a nervous wreck and never learns anything. You also have to be prepared to leave it on all the time and should use a dummy collar when you are recharging it. They learn quickly that when the collar is off you can't touch them. I have only used the collar when all other methods have failed and the problem is serious enough that the dog is a danger to himself or something else. Consequently it's hardly ever been used. Personally I would say exhaust all other options first.

 

If you are still going to get one, make sure it is one that can be turned up and down several levels. Mine has seven levels and has never been higher than a three. That was for a very hard headed husky who was notorious for chasing and killing livestock. He was oblivious to every other type of correction and was on the verge of being shot.

 

Many people think the object is to hurt the dog to make them listen. All you want is enough power to get the dog to stop what it's doing and refocus on you, it doesn't take much. Anything more is cruel and will do more damage than good.

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I believe if you need a shock collar to train a dog then you should not have the dog. A person should take the time to figure out how to fix the problem by teaching not by correcting.

Personally I have looked at a lot of dogs that were supposed to be hard and if you use proper body position and the correct amount of training pressure the dog will never have to experience the poor excuse for training,such as a shock collar.

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I believe border collies in particular should NEVER be trained with a shock collar for stock work. If you choose to use the collar to reinforce your stop around stock (common usage), more often than not, the dog will think that there is something about working the stock that brings on the "bad thing." It is unlikely that your dog is going to EVER understand that the "correction" is because he failed to stop. It is probable that the dog will begin to anticipate the shock and stop using his head at all at the point where he might receive the correction.

 

I have a dog that was probably trained with a collar and he is a fried basket case on the top of his outruns and can never approach sheep with his head screwed on right.

 

I agree with Thad. If you feel that this is your only resort to get your dogs trained, then either they are not the right dogs or you haven't found the right help yet.

 

Laura

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Thad's response regarding the shock collar is one of the best that I have read.

 

The first sentence should become a classic.

 

Since the great handler's with almost perfect timing do not use shock collars, why should the rest of us handlers think of it as a viable method to train a dog on livestock?

 

Terry Sheaffer

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I'd just like to make it clear (in case it wasn't) that I have never used an electronic collar on a border collie to train it on sheep. Niether have I ever needed to use it on a dog that was started properly (in any form of training).

 

I don't recommend it as an option.

 

The only dogs (three total in ten years, one by owners choice, not mine) it was ever used on were ones on their way out and like I said that was after they were quite untrainable by other means thanks to severe mishandling.

 

(Each dog was saved and led or is living a great life as a much loved pet, however if they had been started right the collar would never have had to be used.)

 

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 11-29-2002).]

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I agree with what most of you have said about the shock collar. And I have never seen a need to use it on one of my Border Collies especially around stock. I guess I didn't explain my reason for needing one.

I work and Catch cattle for the farms around here. To locate lost cattle I use black mouth curs. Sometimes they may be a half mile or so from me when they bay. I have a couple that will grab a cow or calf if the cow fights at them. I need to colar to get them off before they hurt the stock. When they get mad they loose their training. If I am close enough for them to hear me they will back off and down. I really don't want them to bite stock they should just bay. Most of them do but I have a couple that won't and when they grab one all of them jump in and grab. I would really like to stop them from grabing at all or at least holding on. I let the curs work the cattle for a while then call them off and bring in my collies to drive them out of the woods or where ever they are and into the pens. The problem is the curs do not bark on track, only when they locate cattle do they bark.Which makes it impossible to stay with them. When the do bark I am on my way to them in a hurry but that may not be quick enough sometimes. The collar is need here or I feel it is.And It won't work here either unless I am where I can see whats going on from where I am. I have tried musels on the ruff dogs and that works to a point but would like to have them broke from biting at all if this is posible. I have found that a Collie thinks and the curs don't or at least not to suit me. But they are a nessaty to me. I could get rid of the ruff dogs but they are my best cold nose dogs really the only ones that will track cattle on a cold trail.

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On the subject of e-collars, I don't believe in them in the hands of the general population...too much chance for abuse. That said, I think that the e-collar is just a tool; in the right hands - probably a valuable tool. Just like the subject of choke collars....its just a piece of equipment - it is how it is used that is useful...or cruel. Personally, I don't see how an e-collar would enhance the training of a working Border Collie; if anything, I could envision it inhibiting a dog from trusting itself to use its instincts and think on its own...but I don't know. Certainly field dog trainers have figured out how to use e-training and not lose a hunting dog's natural ability...but are the two comparable? I don't know....

I would suggest checking out www.tritronics.com. If you click on the link to their "friends and partners", one of them listed is the Lone Star Cattle Dog Futurity. You can click on that link and perhaps their website might have info or a contact you could talk to about e-training. (you might even find people knowledgable about your specific issues who have successfully worked through them without electronics)

I don't pretend to know anything about Black Mouth Curs...but it doesn't sound like they are used for "herding" so much as hunting/locating - ? Anyway, if you are serious about pursuing e-training, all I can suggest is that you do your homework first, and find cattle dog people who use it successfully and solicit their help. It sounds like your dogs perform a valuable service to you, and I'm sure that you would not want to jump in and use the collar improperly and take the chance of making the problem worse...or losing the dog altogether as a working partner.

 

Janet

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Guest PrairieFire

Hey Cowsavvy -

 

I think most folks don't think you should use a shock collar on a Border Collie - and I agree...

 

The only (very slight) excuse I ever saw for one was a guy trying to train from a wheelchair - but the problem he had was the usual one - a good Border Collie won't react properly to that kind of stimulation/correction.

 

As you know, they are very different dogs than curs - or catahoulas - or any of those "cattle fightin'" dogs...a Border Collie is much more sensitized to trainer and "working" stock than those are - and are used under very different circumstances...

 

Tri-tronics is the brand some friends use for field trial dogs - since I don't train those dogs, I don't know if they need them or not...I have seen Catahoula's bringing cattle out of cypress swamps, and without collar training, I think those dogs would have had lunch on those beasties..."you grab that leg, and I'll grab this one, and make a wish!"

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-30-2002).]

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The original poster might be more useful information on a cur list or Catahoula forum. This must be a problem that people who use such dogs run into on a regular basis, and I'd be curious to know if it is one that is typically dealt with using shock collars.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly

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We once had a BC pup who had a horrible car chasing problem - would see a flash of car out on the road from our back pasture and head out through each pasture, ending with a hard run the length of our 1/4 mile driveway to "catch it."

 

We knew the dog would end up dead (someone letting the dog run free accidentally, etc.) if we didn't do something about it, so, we sent the dog "out" for correction training.

 

It only took 2 e-collar training sessions and the dog remains broke of the habit to this day.

 

I bore you with the story only to support my thought that it seems likely that one could just as easily break a dog of the "working habit" if not used by hands that had permanently perfect timing, attached to a head that had permanently perfect training techniques.

 

On a related note, I have often heard that the use of e-collars has the potential to create a problem that is far worse than the orignal... and correcting the resulting problem is usually much harder than correcting the original problem, if possible at all.

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Just two notes:

 

1) I have a dog that was about ruined by early exposure to the collar, to "cure" him of hard biting, when what he really needed was some confidence building. The collar was applied without my knowlege. He ended up doing nothing on stock but flying around gripping everything in sight. If I hadn't had the help of a very skilled trainer he would never have been trustworthy around stock, much less a pretty decent trial dog. So the collar had the opposite effect: just made him bite more, and harder, and think less (VERY dangerous around cows).

 

2) If I'm tempted to reach for the collar (I have a very nice one, a leftover from rescue days), I remind myself - what did trainers do before they had these? We're always hearing about how tough dogs were in the good ol' days - and not every handler was a brutish ogre - it MUST be possible to handle a tough dog without crutches like e-collars. My mentor would say you need to get into his head. (c;

 

------------------

Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

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Jel, The cur dogs are used mostly for baying up cattle or just holding them till someone gets there they don't bark on a track only when they bay.

PraireFire, These dogs are really not cattle fighting dogs, the on the adverage they bite probally less than the Border Collie. They are used to track and locate lost cattle and then bay them up. By this they circle the cattle barking they are a tuff dog and usually mean. They are also used in hog and wild bear hunting. They also make good hunting dogs as in Squrell and Coon dogs. The are really versatle but tend to do the job they are trained on.They are very fighty among them selfs. You can't keep 3 together one will be killed. But they work good in a pack doing a job. But won't let strange dog interfer.

SoloRiver, My curs will bring cattle out of swamps and woods, but they only hold the cattle together and I drive them out.They do this with the shock colar training. It is when they are out on their on that they get a little ruff if something fights at them.If they are within hearing distance of me I can control them. My problem is when they are a half mile from me. I run 14 curs and all but 3 won't bite but I have 3 that will catch and hold. When one catches then there ends up being 14 dogs on a calf which is a problem Or the owner of the cattle considers it one. I try not to turn the ruff dogs loose but on really bad cross bred cattle I have to sometimes. It is a problem and I am sure there is a cur I just have to find it.

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I would like to think all of you for your comments.I agree with most of them. My experance with the Border Collies is that they couldn't benefit from the shock color they are too smart and pick up on things too fast. I feel that there could be exceptions to this but they would be far and few inbetween. I can see where they could be benificial in breaking bad habbits,as in turning over trash cans,chasing cars,or barking in pens, But can also see where the should never be used around stock. I started out with the loud voice thing when I first started which worked but watched a friend of mine work his trial dogs and he used a very low voice like a wisper which amaged me. I have gone to the wisper on my dogs and it works just as well. I think it is how you start out and how consistant you are with your comands. I have also learned that if you say a comand 3 times at different voice levels before the correction, your dogs learns he can get away with the first two but the third he better mind. Well I learned that one is enough so maby I learned something from them as well as them learning for me. Thanks again for all the responces

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Cowsavy,

 

I've seen couple of Catahoula dogs and a young pup at work and if they are similar to cur dogs,I would imagine you would benefit having them on training collars.

Hunting down runaway bulls (even though they were tame just about 3-4 days ago) is not a job for any Border Collies I've seen unless they have a definite plans about committing suicide. These dogs were tough,rough and very loud at times,doubt they are to hear any commands with so much adrenaline rushing through them but they got the job done and managed to keep the bulls together. Male Catahoula,I could've sworn he wouldn't make it till the morning,he took so many blows but wouldn't quit,I think it just made him madder.

 

IMHO,I don't think this forum is the right place to ask about training collars though,clicker training or perhaps a positive training methods would be more appropriate. Insert a big smile here.

 

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

-------------------

 

It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt.

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IKW, You are probally right about the wrong place to ask, but sometimes you get a lot from the wrong place. I know I watch people riding when I get a chance and I learn a lot from them, Most of the time what not to do but I still learn. The same applys for here. The Catalohas are mild compaired to the Black Mouth and the Mountain Curs. They have their place working stock and sure makes it easer on the Border Collies as far as dog breaking stock. Usually about 15 min with the curs and the collies can handle them with ease. I use both in my operation and not sure which one I would choose if I had to make a choise between the two. Probally the curs because they locate cattle better and will hold them where they want to be held or not.But they can sure get under your skin sometimes. And you are right the rougher the stock the tougher the dogs get. They can get tuff too. I have never seen a bull that could handle either of my dogs. They will not back up. Sometimes I wish they would give a little. I am a sucker for watching good dogs work. No matter the breed.I am wanting to get in the trialing and trying to pick all these pros for a few tips. I figgered out ask questions that gets offencive responces works well. When you ask one stright out they kinda beat around the bush. Ask them something that kinda rials them and you get all kinds of good information. I think I will keep rialing them. I might learn something right.

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Cowsavy:

 

Never heard of Black Mouth or Mountain Curs, so I did a quick search to learn about them. Maybe some of these sites might help:

 

Ranchers.net message board. There are several ads selling and wanting to buy Black Mouth and Mountain Curs, so someone there might know something about training them.

 

Kemmer Stock Mountain Cur Breeders Association message board.

 

A list of other Cur breed clubs, but I didn't see a message board for any of the others.

 

Please let us know how you get along with your training issue.

 

Tony Luper

Summerfield, NC

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I almost hate to show myself as a huge ignorant meanie, but I have been using an electronic collar on my BC. I would agree that one should try the more time tested training methods first.

 

this particulr pup has been the most difficult dog I have ever attempted to train. She flunked Puppy Kindergarten and Beginning Obeidience where the emphasis was on positive reenforcement - both with or without clickers. My original plan with this dog was to train her for agility, but decided that perhaps if I put her to doing the work she was bred for she might respond better. That worked up to a point, but it soon became clear that she needed some more imediate way of getting her attention. This was after six months of work esculating to choke collar to prong collar. This happy-go-lucky dog could actually tell how far out 21 feet was when she was on a 20 foot long line.

 

My trainer advised against it for the same reasons that have been expressed in the replies to this thread, "I've seen many dogs ruined with ellectric collars." My reply to this was that as it stood this dog was not good for anything as she was and before I give up on her completely, I'd give the training collar a try.

 

The collar I use has a reostat on the handler's controller so there is an infinate ajustment to the amount of charge. There is also the choice of a "nick", which is a very small fraction of a second zap - or you can use the "continuous" button which does just that provides a continuous shock. I have never had ocassion to use the continuous button, and I keep the "nick" turned down to the point where a person can barely feel it. the dog reacts somewhat like she has felt a slight fea bite. She doesn't like it, so she realizes that she should pay attention. In the three months since I have been using it, I can now realisticly consider entering her in beginning herding trials.

 

I think there must be a big difference between what's available now and those dog cookers that first came out some years ago. I would say that they are on a par with choke or prong collars as valuable training tools. None of these should be used as punishment, especially when you have lost your temper. that's the time just to pick up your dogs and go do somethinge else.

 

Oh yes, my controller allso has a "pager" button which sends a vibration like your cell phone. I think it is used to get the dog's attention when it is too far out to be heard so you can use hand signals.

 

Check out this is where I got my collar and I felt that they were more interested in traiining than in pushing a particular brand. Their web site has traiining suggestions on how to start with an e-collar. They alson have a toll free number.

 

Sorry this is so long, but it seemed that someone needed to balance all those nay sayers.

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Ok after a few ears chewed off and one broken calf's leg I made a choise of a shock collar and a bullet. And the collar has paid for it's self in less than a week in more ways than I had expected.

First I put the collar on and worked the dogs close not using the collar at all even when the didn't mind the instance I expected. I kept incresing the distance to me till they were in their no mind at all zone. I still didn't use the collar on any comands. I let them bite and still did not use it, I need the bite to turn bad cattle.But when they grabed on and held I used it hard. The first dog I used it on got mad at the dog beside him and jumped on him lucky I had a collar on him too. When they touched I zapped them hard. I think it shocked both dogs for they turned loose pretty fast but only for a sec then right back I zapped again. My timing was good on both zapps I was where I could see them and when the teeth touched I was ready. I think both dogs thinks the other has a secret wepond. They wouldn't touch but neither would back down. Finally they got back on the cows. I think I had to zap them a few more times for holding on but in less than an hr they would bite but you couldn't make them hold on and the bites were in and out like they should be. On these Curs it did not affect their desire to work cattle at all. It did stop the hanging on and the fighting among themselves completely. I used the high setting and the continous setting to start with. I did pay attention to all your replys about the lowest settings and being careful about the timing. The night before I put the collar on I was planning my training straguty and something just hit me in the face about the collar. Here is something that made me use the high setting and all the power I had on these dogs. When I was growing up I was not mean but always in to something I shouldn't have been like most kids. Ok my mom would spank me probally every day about something. Which I didn't mind a lot because she used the lowest setting if you know what I mean. Now my dad was a different story. He only whipped me once in my life, But I still remember that one till this day. He never got a chance to do it again because I knew better than do what he told me not too. And No he was not a mean dad he just ment bussiness. Well from lessions I learned from mom and dad and watching a lot of kids and their parents I used the high setting. I think now people are realizing that the baby don't do that a thousand times don't work like one good spanking will. Any way it worked for me and now I have no fighting dogs and no dogs that will grab and hold on. One more thing I think you can ruin a dog with a rope,a whip, a choke or spike collar or any corrective device if used improperly and at the wrong time encluding a shock collar. But I also beleave if used correctly all devices are good and one can benefit from all of them. I was thinking if I had to be corrected I think I had rather have a little shock than a whipping with a rope or stick don't think the shock would sting as long as the whip or rope or rock or what ever. I do electrial work and have been hit a few times with 440 volts and it sure hurts but the 110 is not too bad. So if you use the collar take time to look at the situation and try and see what can happen and when the right time to shock comes up. Do not zap if you missed the timing set it up again and get it right it will work. Use it to its full advantage but don't miss use it. Same goes for the choke collor and the rope. Same deal just different devices. One more thing to think about. On comands you have several seconds between the comand and going and getting the dog and taking it back to the place where the comand was given. With the collar it is a split second and the dog is there. I think the secret is learing the dog that the shock is a correction other wise he may think the stock did it or a rock did it. If he knows the shock is a correction then he knows he did it by disabaying. Thinks for all the information and all of it makes since and will probally work. I just did it a little different and it also worked. I am going to try it on one of my border collies but not around stock at first. Mostly when I am out riding and working my dogs on staying behind my horse and maby the down when crossing a rd or railrd track. If I can get this forced trained it may save me a dog or two. I think it is worth a try

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