Border Collie-ish Springers

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Awhile back I remember someone asking something like, "How could a Border Collie be mistaken for a Springer Spaniel?" At the time I thought, "Well, didn't Spaniels play a part in the origin of the Border Collie?" But then I got involved with the rest of the thread and it took me until now to get around to checking my facts. It says in Where Did the Border Collie Come From? in the USBCC Newsletter, Fall 1994,

"In the Middle Ages, a type of spaniel was bred, the ancestor of some of our modern spaniels, that would naturally crouch when it located game. Hunters had no very accurate weapons for shooting small birds at a distance; they would throw a net over the crouching dog and the birds together. This "instinct" to crouch is probably the origin of the Border Collie crouch. Ever look at the color pattern on a Springer Spaniel? It is still present in the Border Collie, too.

Later on, the setter or pointer was developed, with the behavior described in the first paragraph. The hunting instinct of the primitive dog was inhibited, the dog would stop, stay back, and point to its prey instead of attacking it. There is little doubt that this is the origin of "eye" in the Border Collie. The strong-eyed dog that refuses to get up and move its sheep is no different from the bird dog that is "staunch on point." In the hunting dog it is an asset; in the sheepdog it goes too far. It is the same response. The original cross of birddog/sheepdog may have been accidental, it may have been a search for the multi-purpose dog. Whatever the reason, this behavior, added to the sheepdog, made a better working dog--one that was more effective and easier on the sheep than the old style that probably moved sheep by barking and biting."

 

Ok, so there's a spaniel or two in the wood pile... Then I went looking at dogs on Springer rescue sites. These particular dogs are purported to be purebred Springers. But all three (IMO) could be mistaken for Border Collies or BC crosses. What do you all think?

 

[Frogs & Dogs]

The first dog pic you posted looks very much like a BC to me. The ears and head shape are very spaniel in the second and third, I think.

 

I liked this part: "The original cross of birddog/sheepdog may have been accidental, it may have been a search for the multi-purpose dog. Whatever the reason, this behavior, added to the sheepdog, made a better working dog--one that was more effective and easier on the sheep than the old style that probably moved sheep by barking and biting."

 

My Kit is suspected to be birddog x sheepdog; either pointer or springer crossed with BC. I can see what they mean about the multipurpose dog. I think the cross takes a little off the harsher edges of both breeds.

[PSmitty]

I don't know. Being involved in rescue, I see a lot of dogs (questionably) listed as border collies or BC mixes. If I saw the red dog Geonni posted, I *might* think BC mix. The other two? I don't see anything BCish about them.

 

Frogs & Dogs, your Kit is gorgeous. IMO, I see a lot of pointer in her. Hard to say what the rest could be.

 

Now, having said all that, my BC mix was listed as a BC/lab at the rescue (total guess, I'm sure). Many people doubt he's got any BC in him, but working him on sheep has sealed the deal for me. He's got some BC in there, just how much, of course we'll never know.

[Guest echoica]

coincidentally, i was walking rikku with another person who has a red springer this morning in the park. from a distance they looked like twins! especially as rikku is a pup and small still. pretty much the same markings and size (although entirely different ears)! not to mention how well they got along too

[Lewie'sMom]

I've never done any research on the BC's origin but I have seen some very old pictures and drawings with/of BCs. There was a real "spaniel-ish" look to some of them.

[The Good Shepherd]

A few month ago, while in the park with my Spyder, I was ask where I got that beautiful Springer from

 

Spyder could pass for the first dogs twin from about 5 feet away

 

Yet he is all BC according to his pedigree - going way back with ABCA, AIBC and ISDS

 

So go figure

[bc friend]

Having both bc's and a bc/springer mix, there a lot of differences that I see - coat type, bone density, head size, muzzle confirmation, paw shape and size, the abdominal tuck, etc. To me, Katie looks more like a springer than a bc, yet eveytime Katie is out in public, almost everyone asks if she is a bc! (She is a pretty dog with classic b/w markings from her AKC bc mom) I've never had anyone ask if she was a springer or spaniel.

[mbc1963]

My dog is a bigot - generally likes herding dogs and JRTs. But if he sees a Springer from across the field, he will momentarily consider being their friend. From the distance, the black-and-white patterns do look similar.

 

Mary

[Katelynn & Gang]

My dogs still point. They could make some awesome bird dogs.

 

Oh, did I mention they do dock jumping too?

 

Katelynn

[njnovice]

My dog is a bigot - generally likes herding dogs and JRTs. But if he sees a Springer from across the field, he will momentarily consider being their friend. From the distance, the black-and-white patterns do look similar.

 

Mary

 

Mick's a bigot, too. He likes herding dogs, especially other border collies and German Shepherds. He also likes pit bulls, which is good, because I just adopted one. Oddly enough, he has a thing for toy dogs, and will lay on his belly and lick their toes. No idea why he does that, but it's cute.

 

He does not like retrievers, or any other dog that gets too jumpy and in his face. His issues with labs was probably not aided by him getting attacked by a black lab at the dog park once. I'm not talking about a scuffle to show who's in charge, he's been in plenty of those, I'm talking about a "full-on that lab wanted to kill my dog"-type fight. The owner was an idiot, too. Her response was "oh, he doesn't like other male dogs." Fortunately, it's a good dog park, and that dog was banned for life.

[ejano]

Awhile back I remember someone asking something like, "How could a Border Collie be mistaken for a Springer Spaniel?" At the time I thought, "Well, didn't Spaniels play a part in the origin of the Border Collie?" But then I got involved with the rest of the thread and it took me until now to get around to checking my facts. It says in Where Did the Border Collie Come From? in the USBCC Newsletter, Fall 1994,

"In the Middle Ages, a type of spaniel was bred, the ancestor of some of our modern spaniels, that would naturally crouch when it located game. Hunters had no very accurate weapons for shooting small birds at a distance; they would throw a net over the crouching dog and the birds together. This "instinct" to crouch is probably the origin of the Border Collie crouch. Ever look at the color pattern on a Springer Spaniel? It is still present in the Border Collie, too.

Later on, the setter or pointer was developed, with the behavior described in the first paragraph. The hunting instinct of the primitive dog was inhibited, the dog would stop, stay back, and point to its prey instead of attacking it. There is little doubt that this is the origin of "eye" in the Border Collie. The strong-eyed dog that refuses to get up and move its sheep is no different from the bird dog that is "staunch on point." In the hunting dog it is an asset; in the sheepdog it goes too far. It is the same response. The original cross of birddog/sheepdog may have been accidental, it may have been a search for the multi-purpose dog. Whatever the reason, this behavior, added to the sheepdog, made a better working dog--one that was more effective and easier on the sheep than the old style that probably moved sheep by barking and biting."

 

Ok, so there's a spaniel or two in the wood pile... Then I went looking at dogs on Springer rescue sites. These particular dogs are purported to be purebred Springers. But all three (IMO) could be mistaken for Border Collies or BC crosses. What do you all think?

 

 

 

They've all got that sad spaniel look to me...something about the eyes, but then for awhile, the pics of Ladybug we took she looked like a spaniel. Might have been the sadness of losing her former home....

[shanty]

My dog is a bigot - generally likes herding dogs and JRTs. But if he sees a Springer from across the field, he will momentarily consider being their friend. From the distance, the black-and-white patterns do look similar.

 

Mary

 

A coincidence today - we ran into two Springers on our walk (not even together) which is rare enough. I actually DID think the black and white one was a bc from a distance. I can't say either really 'clicked' well with Truman play-wise. They both seemed to like close proximity chasing rather than straight line or large figure eight running that Truman prefers. The one he played longest with also kept getting distracted and standing still while Truman awkwardly climbed on top and tried to mount his face

 

Also, Truman's BEST mates are JRT's - two females owned by different people that he just bonded well with. Along with JRTs he has a preference for boxer or pitbull mixes. The only reason I can figure is that these dogs are quick and tough for their size which tends to be the same or smaller than Truman. If a pitbull is too solid to run they seem to brace for a head on collision while Truman vaults over them - very funny. Bigger, heavier dogs seem to make him slightly nervous, but then he had some rough play with some Newfie crosses and maybe he remembers what it's like to be flattened by an over-eager playmate that outweighs you by nearly 50lbs!

 

My first dog was an English Springer Spaniel and he was a real sweetie, but he seemed more Lab-like in temperment than my bc's. VERY friendly and excitable!

[Frogs & Dogs]

Frogs & Dogs, your Kit is gorgeous. IMO, I see a lot of pointer in her. Hard to say what the rest could be.

 

Now, having said all that, my BC mix was listed as a BC/lab at the rescue (total guess, I'm sure). Many people doubt he's got any BC in him, but working him on sheep has sealed the deal for me. He's got some BC in there, just how much, of course we'll never know.

 

Thanks. Kit was also listed as BC x lab at the shelter, but I have a really hard time seeing any lab in her. I'm sure it was just a guess. Based more on personality and behavior than on looks, I'm pretty sure she's part BC.

[shadowmarie]

I think that you can really see spaniel in some of the historical pictures of collies. Look at the pictures of Queen Victoria's collies here: queen victoria's collies. My dog looks like she has a lot of spaniel in her:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?p...d=1207110459603.

I've been told by people with a dog very much like mine that she is a farm collie (their dog was from a breeding at their parent's farm), and that every farm around here used to have one.

[shanty]

I think that you can really see spaniel in some of the historical pictures of collies. Look at the pictures of Queen Victoria's collies here: queen victoria's collies. My dog looks like she has a lot of spaniel in her:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?p...d=1207110459603.

I've been told by people with a dog very much like mine that she is a farm collie (their dog was from a breeding at their parent's farm), and that every farm around here used to have one.

 

I couldn't see the facebook picture but I liked the link to Queen Victoria's collies - especially as they have less characteristic markings. In fact the first one (Sharp) had similar markings to Truman which makes me happy