I think I could use some help.

[desertranger]

I think we've all seen this. http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...c=27477&hl= about people who are HUA with their dogs.

 

However it is natural for a BC to want to chase things which brings me to Jin.

 

We do two+ walks a day. One of them is for workouts playing games and giving him control instruction as if he were moving sheep in our game of 3-ball. The second is a sniffy walk where he is off leash. Most of these walks take place along the natural desert wash and the greensward (combination of parks, sports fields, greenbelt and golf courses),

 

In the wash Jin will suddenly start chasing the small birds in the shrubs. They fly off he goes after them. This can go on for 10 mins or more. He doesn't respond to recall but does follow along the track I'm walking and I can give him some control like a come-by to get him to change direction. Lie Down doesn't work at all. I can see him about 85% of the time. Since it's coming up spring the snakes will be soon be out and I don't want him having an accidental meeting with one.

 

In addition to what was mentioned above the greensward also has water features like ponds and hazards on the golf course. There are also a couple of seasonal streams. All are visited by geese in the winter and ducks. Jin pays no attention to the ducks or geese on our walks and I would like him to herd (read chase them away) them under control.

 

EXPLAINATION: Before you get your panties in a twist bear in mind to locally geese, pigeons and some other birds are a health problem and a hazard especially near the airport. There have been several people who have openly pushed for the capture or hunting of them. Some have even proposed the use of poison. Since we are under a major bird flyway and this is an ecological friendly area this is of course unacceptable.

 

Then a friend sent me a you tube video on the Geese Police.

 

Which set me to thinking that I could use Jin to restore a little lawn and order to the greensward and make a few bucks as well. A good thing considering that I'm disabled and can't really work anymore. Jin has been exposed to sheep and shows good insttinct for working with them. Aside from finding someone to teach Jin how to herd geese is there anything else I should know? Is there any way I can do this without incurring the expensive of travel for herding lessons? Money is extremely tight.

 

BTW for those of you who don't know Jin is also my service dog. However that doesn't provide him with enough work. OMG!! My dog has to get a second job.

[stockdogranch]

Hey! Just saw this one, and I'm curious:

Jin has been exposed to sheep and shows good insttinct for working with them

Cool! Where/when did you take him? Did you get pics? You know the rule: we need to see pics!! I do hafeta say I'm a bit disappointed, as you said you were going to bring him to my place. I was so anxious to meet you both...but anyway...

So, we need the details of the event!

A

[kelpiegirl]

First thing, is you need a solid recall on your dog, no matter what. Second, you need permission from the land owners to do this. Third, you need a dog very good (bomb proof) with people. When I started my goose control work, neither of my dogs had any sheepdog training. BUT, they had great recall, and were very obedient. Lucy was a great swimmer too, and would not leave a pond until all the geese were gone. That said, I am sure you know, that Canada geese a federally protected, underscoring the need for a good listening dog.

 

I can't stress enough the suitable temperament (biddable, and GREAT with people) as all it takes is one bad experience, and the whole notion is quashed.

[desertranger]

Bombproof with people is not a problem he loves everybody. He's also a chick magnet with that blue eye of his. Permission from the landowners is not a problem. Golf course hate the geese due to the mess they leave. It's also a health hazard. Private propert is exempt and as long as he doesn't hurt the honkers I'm good to go. As I've said in other posts his recall is getting better if I can keep him out of lala land. He is also a great swimmer and has no problems getting into the water when I say it's OK or I tell him to.

 

Hey! Just saw this one, and I'm curious:

 

Cool! Where/when did you take him? Did you get pics? You know the rule: we need to see pics!! I do hafeta say I'm a bit disappointed, as you said you were going to bring him to my place. I was so anxious to meet you both...but anyway...

So, we need the details of the event!

A

 

Dear Anna,

 

My apologies but I should have said something. His introduction to sheep was a fortuitous event in Riverside one weekend. It happened while you were at trials last summer. My trainer introduced me to a guy named Doug who teaches Aussies not far from where my friends and I go to a Rock Climbing Gym. So we went climbing one day and herding the same day. It was also paid for, a big deal when your on a limited income. Frankly I didn't like the guy all that much. Nor did I like his technique or his fawning over Cesar Milans' methods. My traqiner said I wouldn't like him, perceptive girl.

 

Still I very much want to come down to your place only money is so Fn tight it's impossible right now. Wait! I forgot about Jin's piggy bank. I've been saving for lessons from a local trainer. Maybe for this purpose it would be better to come down there one day and have you evaluate him. Yes, I think so. Let me see what I can do and I'll be in touch.

 

Thank you for your poking me.

 

*hugs*

 

 

 

Jin is indeed a true farmdog. The first thing he did when finished with the sheep was get into the watering trough.

 

[juliepoudrier]

DR,

In goose control work, the dog needs to be willing to push the geese *away* not gather, so it is kind of the opposite of what the dog would normally do on stock. If there are ponds, then the dog really needs to be able to swim as the geese will simply settle on the water out of reach of the dog. If you really want to do this, you should read up on all the regulations regarding geese--when you are allowed to harass, when you aren't, when eggs can be addled, when not, etc.

 

It's not so simple a job as occasionally going out and chasing geese; for the goose control to work, you have to be constant. My friends who do goose work (one of whom is the Geese Police person in VA) will tell you that there are certain times of the year when you work your butt off. Most have canoes or kayaks so they can assist their dogs on the water.

 

If you are unable to do the work consistently, then you really won't be effective. Often the geese will simply move away temporarily and come right back if you're not there on a regular basis (and that means fairly often) to make them uncomfortable enough to stay away or at least not come back quite as often. This may not be an issue for you personally (not knowing what your disability is), but if you want folks to pay you for your services, then you need to make sure that you are willing and able to provide complete service, especially at peak times when goose control is needed.

 

As Julie W. noted a solid recall is imperative as is the sure knowledge that Jin won't ever physically harm the geese.

 

I'm sure you are aware of this, but just wanted to reiterate that goose control doesn't just mean going out and chasing geese when you feel like it--it really can become a full time job. And if you can't do the work properly, then it's best not to do it at all, because a job poorly done will turn the golf course owners, etc., off from using dogs for goose control if they have a bad experience with it, and that does no one any good. (I know this because I have a good friend who lives near Myrtle Beach in SC, and he told me once when we were discussing goose control in his area that many of the local golf courses there had been turned off to that type of work thanks to one person whom they had hired for goose control and who did a piss poor job of it.)

 

J.

[desertranger]

Thank you Julie.

 

I was looking at the law this afternoon. Don't forget I was a ranger and wildlife law is something I'm familiar with. At the moment it is a learning process just to find out what is involved. I am aware that it is a job like anything else and takes time and dedication to do it properly. It's also a seasonal job. However by researching it and finding out what is involved I will be in a better place to make a decision.

 

Frankly there are 2 things I'm looking at right now. One is the geese cops, the other is being a service dog trainer for the disabled using the TopdogUSA method. They have a school for trainers that gets very good marks.

 

As for my disability, there are two one physical and one mental health. Of course everyone here already knows I'm as crazy as a loon. I have given thought to my physical disability getting in the way. At the moment I think I can do it. We'll see. Won't get any answers not asking around.

[kelpiegirl]

DR:

You need to remember, that if your dog runs into someone, or causes someone to fall, you are liable, and on golf courses, and any private property, the land owners can be sued. I know you say permission is not a problem, but I would get it in writing. At the golf course I worked, they had either a cattle dog, or aussie doing goose control on a friendly basis- someone like you, who knew the place and was happy to do it. It worked fine until the dog bit a golfer in the face. Insurance companies will not cover dog bites, so they could have lost the property/business.

 

Bombproof with people is not a problem he loves everybody. He's also a chick magnet with that blue eye of his. Permission from the landowners is not a problem. Golf course hate the geese due to the mess they leave. It's also a health hazard. Private propert is exempt and as long as he doesn't hurt the honkers I'm good to go. As I've said in other posts his recall is getting better if I can keep him out of lala land. He is also a great swimmer and has no problems getting into the water when I say it's OK or I tell him to.

Dear Anna,

 

My apologies but I should have said something. His introduction to sheep was a fortuitous event in Riverside one weekend. It happened while you were at trials last summer. My trainer introduced me to a guy named Doug who teaches Aussies not far from where my friends and I go to a Rock Climbing Gym. So we went climbing one day and herding the same day. It was also paid for, a big deal when your on a limited income. Frankly I didn't like the guy all that much. Nor did I like his technique or his fawning over Cesar Milans' methods. My traqiner said I wouldn't like him, perceptive girl.

 

Still I very much want to come down to your place only money is so Fn tight it's impossible right now. Wait! I forgot about Jin's piggy bank. I've been saving for lessons from a local trainer. Maybe for this purpose it would be better to come down there one day and have you evaluate him. Yes, I think so. Let me see what I can do and I'll be in touch.

 

Thank you for your poking me.

 

*hugs*

Jin is indeed a true farmdog. The first thing he did when finished with the sheep was get into the watering trough.

 

[desertranger]

I know what your saying. I've worked dogs in publlc for years with people around. It's amazing how people will blame something on the dog when they were responsible. I was once sued for saving someone when I tied a rope to them and had a dog hold it until I could secure the other end. He went crazy, he thought the dog was trying to hang him. The dog was just keeping him from slipping down the hill. The judged laughed it out of court under the Good Samaritan law.

 

I also had someone fall on a simple hike once. She was warned and advised not to go because her shoes were street shoes not outdoor ones.S o she slipped and broke her wrist then sued. I wasn't responsible for her being improperly dressed, I didn't force her to go and she was warned several times about proper footwear. In fact everyone on every tour is told when the reservation is made to bring proper footware. Anyone in Floo Floo shoes is advised not to go on the hikes but to explore near the coach. Still they make the descision to come on the hike. Why then do they feel I'm responsible for their mistakes. It's because the judges feel I could have stopped their fall. Right in a group of 50 people.

 

If I do decide to do this. I'm not going to allow anyone into the work area. Keeps it safer for me and the dogs.

[Debbie Meier]

DR, something to consider, you are having some hiccups with recalls and chasing with Jin, taking him out in the open and allowing him to chase geese probably is going to make it worse. Now, if you can get his stop and recall reliable in your regular life going out and doing goose control can offer you a higher requirement to train to, a goose dog still needs a stop and be recalled and not after the geese are gone. You need to be able to stop and redirect him, there may be ducks that you want him to leave, or possibly an injured goose, another situation that happens often is that you may see that the path he is on to flush the geese is taking him into a road or into a group of people. It sucks when you have a dog that runs out and does not come back until all the geese are gone, double sucks when the geese you send the dog on lift off but before coming back the dog sees another group way off yonder and opts to get them too. When working at distance sometimes the only tool you have to keep your dog out of harms way is your "That'll do, here" or "Lie Down"

 

Deb

[Ooky]

That said, I am sure you know, that Canada geese a federally protected, underscoring the need for a good listening dog.

 

Canada geese are protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. This only applies to migratory birds. A lot of nuisance populations are actually not migratory, and stay in the same locale year-round. Additionally, the MBTA only prohibits "killing, possessing, or trading of migratory birds" meaning "whole birds, parts of birds, and bird nests and eggs". So, even if dealing with migratory geese, you are only in violation if you kill one, or disturb an active nest with eggs or young. You ARE in violation if you've ever picked up a nice feather and taken it home (possession of a part of bird, see?). I'm sure no one here has ever done such a thing

 

I tried a couple of times - Odin won't even recognize geese as "herdable". I wonder if he saw another dog working them? In general, he is not at all concerned with birds, including injured or fallen immature pigeons, etc.

[desertranger]

DR, something to consider, you are having some hiccups with recalls and chasing with Jin, taking him out in the open and allowing him to chase geese probably is going to make it worse. Now, if you can get his stop and recall reliable in your regular life going out and doing goose control can offer you a higher requirement to train to, a goose dog still needs a stop and be recalled and not after the geese are gone. You need to be able to stop and redirect him, there may be ducks that you want him to leave, or possibly an injured goose, another situation that happens often is that you may see that the path he is on to flush the geese is taking him into a road or into a group of people. It sucks when you have a dog that runs out and does not come back until all the geese are gone, double sucks when the geese you send the dog on lift off but before coming back the dog sees another group way off yonder and opts to get them too. When working at distance sometimes the only tool you have to keep your dog out of harms way is your "That'll do, here" or "Lie Down"

 

Deb

 

Believe me Deb after 35+ years with working dogs I would never take a dog into a situation where I didn't believe he was ready for it. I've seen people do it with SAR and trail dogs and wind up in major trouble. IMO it always starts with the thought that the safety of the dog handler team is first because each situation is new and untested.

 

Don't worry I'm not going to risk Jin on anything since he is first a Service Dog. It may turn out that I would be better off becoming a trainer for SDs and the disabled instead of the active life of a goose cop. LOL At anyevent it would be a year before I could attempt such a thing since Jin has to finish SD training first. I would like him to certify at TopDogUSA.ORG before doing anything else.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Ooky

I am well aware of the MBTA. The thing is, there is *no* definitive way to assure a bird is either part of a migratory flock, or resident. In my experience, there is a LOT of mingling, starting about now in my area. I can tell you that even though the law states "killing/posessing/trading", if my dog were to injure said bird, the DEC could arrest me. I know this to be fact.

 

 

 

Canada geese are protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. This only applies to migratory birds. A lot of nuisance populations are actually not migratory, and stay in the same locale year-round. Additionally, the MBTA only prohibits "killing, possessing, or trading of migratory birds" meaning "whole birds, parts of birds, and bird nests and eggs". So, even if dealing with migratory geese, you are only in violation if you kill one, or disturb an active nest with eggs or young. You ARE in violation if you've ever picked up a nice feather and taken it home (possession of a part of bird, see?). I'm sure no one here has ever done such a thing

 

I tried a couple of times - Odin won't even recognize geese as "herdable". I wonder if he saw another dog working them? In general, he is not at all concerned with birds, including injured or fallen immature pigeons, etc.