Is it me?

[BorderCollieSam]

I stumbled accross this video on You Tube tonight showing BC's.

 

Is it me or do these dogs look completely different?

 

OK, i realise they have had their coats combed, however its not just their posh looking appearance, they seem like the shell of a BC with something else inside....

 

I know its only a video and there is a lot that you can't tell from a brief few seconds on a camera, however i think one of the users comments 'ComeByeToMe' knocks the nail on the head with her comments a few posts down about the flame in the eye is not there in the show lines.....

 

Here is the video:-

 

[pansmom]

Once upon a time I thought Vala might be from showlines, since we don't know her pedigree as a rescue... After seeing that video? Yeah, no. They do look like a different dog... but they look sweet, as far as different dogs go. And that's all I'll say!

[juliepoudrier]

This is the website of the person narrating the video: Hot Shot Border Collies. Enough said.

 

J.

[pansmom]

This is the website of the person narrating the video: Hot Shot Border Collies. Enough said.

 

J.

 

Sheesh, now that I've seen her website, I think I might feel comfortable saying more!

[JohnLloydJones]

Is it me or do these dogs look completely different?

I've seen that look on Rhys bach after I picked him up from the neuter clinic. Kind of a zombie look where he was up and awake, but far away because he was still drugged and full of anesthetics.

[BorderCollieSam]

I've seen that look on Rhys bach after I picked him up from the neuter clinic. Kind of a zombie look where he was up and awake, but far away because he was still drugged and full of anesthetics.

 

What a perfect comparison!

 

I also noticed on her website that performance is the last on her list of considerations in breeding and looks are way up there at the top!

[mum24dog]

Even watered down collies have their place. A lot of people would be better off with one of those than with a workier version that they can't handle.

What really bugs me is the fantasy world that most people who show any breed seem to live in. It's a common trait to pretend that they are showing the real thing and spout all sorts of nonsense about their breed's "working heritage" which clearly no longer applies in most cases. Being filmed showing a bit of interest in a few tame sheep doesn't prove working ability - all my dogs of different sorts will do as much.

Those showing in conformation should change the name of what they are producing because they are misleading their customers but they won't - the supposed intelligence of the BC is too much of a selling point for them and what they are marketing is what the uninformed general public think a BC looks like.

It's obviously not confined to BCs - compare a working lab (or any other retriever) or cocker with the show version, the racing whippet or greyhound with one in the conformation ring, the working JRT with its show counterpart the PRT.

 

Pam

[Lewie'sMom]

I've seen that look on Rhys bach after I picked him up from the neuter clinic. Kind of a zombie look where he was up and awake, but far away because he was still drugged and full of anesthetics.

 

 

I couldn't put my finger on it but I do belive you've hit the nail on the head, Mr. Jones.

[desertranger]

Something was not right about that dog. It seemed to lack focus.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I laughed, even though it really isn't funny, when at about 2:00 she names some activities you can do with Border Collies...and herding was unmistakably a complete afterthought.

[BorderCollieSam]

I think everyone of those bc lacked focus, they were just an empty shell....

[eclare]

The word that immediately came to my mind was "soft." They just look kind of round and soft and not at all like the athletic, intelligent dogs I know.

 

Also, and I don't mean this as a knock against that breed, but they also look almost like black and white Bernese mountain dogs rather than border collies. I think it's the roundness around the noses or something.

[Pearse]

Even watered down collies have their place. A lot of people would be better off with one of those than with a workier version that they can't handle.

 

I'm sorry Pam but I have to disagree. If a working-bred border collie is not for someone, then they should get themselves a different breed. "Watered-down" Border Collie should be removed from the gene pool, not bred for.

 

I have working bred dogs. I work them on stock when I can. I did own a small flock up until this year and will again soon (I hope) but most of the time, my dogs hang out at home. They aren't hyper. They're not destructive. They behave themselves in an urban environment. And, on days when I'm at work for 10 - 12 hours, they wait patiently and calmly at home for me to come home and take them for their run, or take them to sheep.

 

That's not in spite of them being decent working dogs in my opinion. It's because they are decent working dogs who haven't been "watered down" by someone trying to make them into something else. Most of the basket case Border Collies I've met are "watered down" dogs from sport-bred lines.

 

Having looked at the video, most of those dogs looked perfectly normal alert dogs to me. Most of them, in fact, showed none of the dead-eyed, exaggerated form, looks you see in top show dogs.

 

 

Pearse

[mum24dog]

I'm sorry Pam but I have to disagree. If a working-bred border collie is not for someone, then they should get themselves a different breed. "Watered-down" Border Collie should be removed from the gene pool, not bred for.

 

You misunderstand me.

It is a different breed - it's just that the show and pet people are hanging onto the name.

If people want a dog like that, why shouldn't they have one if it suits their personality and circumstances? Dogs breeds (including BCs) have all been created for a purpose - for some the purpose is being a pet.

Just don't pretend that it is something it is not.

It's not as if these show/pet dogs are ruining the working stock (except in public perception) - they are taking a completely different path.

 

Most of the basket case Border Collies I've met are "watered down" dogs from sport-bred lines.

 

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but most of the basket cases competing in agility here in the UK are farm bred originally - either deliberately or accidentally.

I have one myself. The sport bred ones (and I'm not defending the practice) tend to be bred for temperament and are pretty well behaved in the right hands. Any dog can be messed up though.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of competing dogs that are from working stock with sound temperaments too.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

I can see this argument from both sides.

 

I purposely got Sam from a working sheep farm with both parents being working dogs. I wanted a highly energetic and intelligent dog because i want to do great things with him.

 

I can see what Pam is meaning by having a dog that suits your needs and if you really want a BC and you live in a domestic setting, then the show breed lines would be better suited.

 

However, i can also see if from the other side, which is 'one' of the reasons i had Sam neutered.

 

I find it facinating seeing a BC working sheep, there is just something magical about it which really uplifts me, and whenever 'I' see a BC, even walking around the streets with its owner, i always respect it highly for its intelligent and hard working heritage. However, the constant breeding of the domestic watered down BC is eventually going to overtake the farm bred highly intelligent working dog and in the end we are going to end up with the working BC we know of today becoming extinct.

 

Maybe some of you think i'm talking utter rubbish, but thats my take on it.....

[mum24dog]

However, the constant breeding of the domestic watered down BC is eventually going to overtake the farm bred highly intelligent working dog and in the end we are going to end up with the working BC we know of today becoming extinct.

 

Any breed will only become extinct if there is no longer a need for it. Quad bikes are more of a danger to the future of the working dog than the Barbie collie.

As long as there is a market for good working dogs they will be bred. There's still money to be made so plenty of incentive.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

Any breed will only become extinct if there is no longer a need for it. Quad bikes are more of a danger to the future of the working dog than the Barbie collie.

As long as there is a market for good working dogs they will be bred. There's still money to be made so plenty of incentive.

 

Pam

 

And what a shame that would be, the noise for one, imagine the comparison of a field x field, one farmer using a quad bike and the other a dog, the look, the noise, not to mention the fumes and damage to the environment and field due to the quad bike wheels/tires, I know what I would rather see and also which is the more efficient and effective method.....

[juliepoudrier]

You misunderstand me.

It is a different breed - it's just that the show and pet people are hanging onto the name.

If people want a dog like that, why shouldn't they have one if it suits their personality and circumstances? Dogs breeds (including BCs) have all been created for a purpose - for some the purpose is being a pet.

Just don't pretend that it is something it is not.

Pam,

This is an argument (Dogs will be bred for a need and if there's a need for pets, what's wrong with that? Personally I just don't get that line of reasoning--if you don't want the whole package the represents a particular breed, then why not just find another breed that already offers that package? Why change one purpose-bred breed into something else to satisfy a desire for a pet?) often presented here by folks who don't work dogs and don't have a need for working dogs, but the glaring problem with the argument is public perception. Folks begin to accept that the show bred border collie is the de facto "breed standard" and when they go looking for a border collie, that's what they get. If they then take that dog and try to use it on stock, they are likely to be sadly disappointed. They won't go back and find themselves a working-bred dog but instead are more likely to turn to the quad bike or similar. And that's a shame (bercause as you note, there needs to be a demand for working-bred dogs, and every person who is turned off to border collies as stock dogs because they made a purchase mistake is one less person to create demand for working-bred dogs). This may not be quite the problem in the UK as it is in the US, since the culture in the UK still largely recognizes the working dog, but it is a big issue here. I have a student (not the first) coming out here with a show-bred dog. He didn't know any different and thought he was getting the real deal. I had the joyless task of telling him that his dog doesn't have what it takes. In this fellow's case, he's willing to go get the type of dog he actually needs for what he wants to do, but for every one person like this guy, there are a bunch more who will decide that it's not worth the effort to get a border collie for stock work.

 

Yes, as long as there is a demand, working dogs will be bred. But when the show dogs co-opt the name and flood the market, it's going to become quite difficult for the *average* person to know there's a difference and to actively seek out the appropriately bred dog. Demand goes down, and as can be seen in many show breeds, a tiny gene pool is not conducive to producing healthy stock....

 

J.

[mum24dog]

if you don't want the whole package the represents a particular breed, then why not just find another breed that already offers that package? Why change one purpose-bred breed into something else to satisfy a desire for a pet?)

 

That would be the logical thing to do but that's the way new breeds have always been created. You take what you have and make it into what you want. It happened with the working BC to get what we have now. No breed is set in stone.

Someone wanted a husky type dog that would be more suitable as a domestic pet so theuy created the Klee Kai. In that case they had the decency to change the name - or maybe it was because the husky doesn't have the same positive image as the BC. There are still plenty of huskies around though.

 

Yes, as long as there is a demand, working dogs will be bred. But when the show dogs co-opt the name and flood the market, it's going to become quite difficult for the *average* person to know there's a difference and to actively seek out the appropriately bred dog. Demand goes down, and as can be seen in many show breeds, a tiny gene pool is not conducive to producing healthy stock....

 

But "the average bred" working dog isn't what a lot of people want or should have. You only have to see the numbers in rescue to realise that. In the past few weeks I've been trying to help re home 2 x 7 week old, a 13 week, 5, 6, 7 and 10 month old BCs - none of them show bred. These are the sort that need new homes more often than the Barbie kind.

 

Folks begin to accept that the show bred border collie is the de facto "breed standard" and when they go looking for a border collie, that's what they get. If they then take that dog and try to use it on stock, they are likely to be sadly disappointed. They won't go back and find themselves a working-bred dog but instead are more likely to turn to the quad bike or similar.

 

Does this really happen over there? Do people really dabble and play at being farmers without doing their homework? If so, I can see your problem, although it wouldn't bother me to tell someone like that that their dog is totally unsuited to the work.

From my own perspective in agility, we've only ever had one show dog join the club, and it wasn't much good. The owner proudly told me that was what BCs are supposed to be like. Whatever.

I can count the number of sport bred ones on the fingers of one hand, and the rest have been working type.

I appreciate that there is a geographical reason for that - we're surrounded by sheep farms.

Personally I would worry if members started to go to sport breeders in any significant numbers. All you need in a club is for someone to breed a litter and the rot sets in.

 

To put the record straight - I'm not in favour of vanity or commercial breeding period - whether for show, sport or pet purposes.

I also have zero respect for anyone who puts appearance over function - so that's the conformation crowd.

Nor do I think that there is any need for sport breeding - you can always get what you want either from rescue or surplus working stock.

However, the world doesn't think the same and there is nothing I can do about it if someone wants to get a Barbie collie and pretend that they're getting back in contact with the land. Lots of people do stuff I don't agree with - that's life.

 

Pam

[eclare]

Does this really happen over there? Do people really dabble and play at being farmers without doing their homework?

 

 

Two words: Jon Katz.

[BorderCollieSam]

Two words: Jon Katz.

 

Just looked up this guy on Wilki, he is an expert in the BC area but had his first BC pts due to behaviour problems and gave away his second!

 

Sounds like an expert in this field doesn't he....

[eclare]

Just looked up this guy on Wilki, he is an expert in the BC area but had his first BC pts due to behaviour problems and gave away his second!

 

Sounds like an expert in this field doesn't he....

 

 

Do a search for his name on these boards and you will learn all you need to know about him.

[juliepoudrier]

But "the average bred" working dog isn't what a lot of people want or should have. You only have to see the numbers in rescue to realise that.

Like Pearse, I strongly disagree with this statement. The most sane, well-mannered dogs I know are working bred. People who get working-bred (or any other type of) pups and then give them up are doing so not because they are *working bred;* they do so because they likely aren't suitable homes for any active, intelligent, human-oriented breed. That's not the fault of the dog (working-bred or not) but the fault of the human who was simply uneducated and unprepared, or more likely simply unwilling, to give the pup the kind of home it needed.

 

I have a five-month-old pup here. I mentioned to a friend today that I wasn't likely going to finish a knitting project I have for my sister (who's in town for the wedding of my nephew) before she heads back to Missouri on Monday because I didn't have large blocks of time to devote to such projects. A pup doesn't allow that (okay, the truth: when I put him up for a break, I want to take a nap myself! ). Many people, when they realize a pup takes a lot of work, simply opt out. Breed or breeding has little to do with it (the exception being health or temperament issues in poorly bred dogs). You yourself say that it's mostly working-bred dogs around you, so it makes sense that ill-prepared people who get pups end up with working-bred pups and then give them up. It's my contention that it's not the "working-bred" part of the equation that's the problem, it's the human part of the equation. Even a barbie collie puppy is going to be a typical puppy and therefore a lot of work.

 

Here in the US I would venture to say that true working-bred dogs don't make up a huge percentage of the dogs in rescue. BYB, pseudo-working-bred, and mill-bred dogs of all stripes probably do. Again, the fact that these dogs are in rescue isn't as much related to their breeding (except for temperament/health as noted above) as to the fact that the humans who got them in the first place had no business getting them.

 

BCS (and Pam)

Here in the US, puppies are sold on slick websites to the gullible. It's a huge place, and although our roots are agricultural, it's not in the same way as it is in the UK. Most people are not "surrounded" by sheep farms or any sort of farm, and if they are, they've probably encroached along with creeping suburbia and are more likely to complain about the sounds and smells than notice the little black and white dog helping the farmer manage his stock. Here people are most likely to see border collies in sporting events, as disc dogs, obedience dogs, or at Westminter, etc.--the things they would see on TV. Their reading is limited to Jon Katz, a self-styled expert who is universally abhorred by working dog folk for the damage he's done with his so-called expertise. They think of a border collie as a working dog only in a historical fashion because that's how it's been presented to them on TV (except for the minority of us who still use them for their intended purpose). It's not at all unusual for someone to go looking for a border collie and be told that the pup is from great working lines (imported lines, so far back as to no longer even be listed on the pedigree) or that the breeder has bred for versatile dogs that "can do it all" or some other variation thereof. Not coming from a culture that is close to its sheepfarming roots, they don't know any better. If you aren't part of the working dog culture here in the US you're going to have to be diligent about doing your research in order to find a good working bred dog.

 

J.

[BorderCollieSam]

My take on all this is simple.

 

If you want a car to do the shopping in, then get a Ford Fiesta (small car, easy to park, cheap to run, no frills)

If you want a car to drive fast, then get a Ferrari.

If you live out in the sticks and get snowed in during the Winter, then you need a car fit for that purpose so go get yourself a 4x4.

 

But, don't get a 4x4 BMW X6 if you want to do the shopping in it and live in the city.....

 

If you want a lapdog to sit with you on the coach every night then get yourself a corgie, if you want a guard dog then you get a Rotti, if you want a quick thinking/intelligent, hard working, energetic dog that strives constantly to prove its worth and you intend using its assets then get yourself a BC.....

 

But you don't go out and buy a Ferrari that somebody has dropped a Fiesta engine in it, as thats just plain stupid....

 

Simple

[geonni banner]

Even watered down collies have their place. A lot of people would be better off with one of those than with a workier version that they can't handle.

What really bugs me is the fantasy world that most people who show any breed seem to live in. It's a common trait to pretend that they are showing the real thing and spout all sorts of nonsense about their breed's "working heritage" which clearly no longer applies in most cases. Being filmed showing a bit of interest in a few tame sheep doesn't prove working ability - all my dogs of different sorts will do as much.

Those showing in conformation should change the name of what they are producing because they are misleading their customers but they won't - the supposed intelligence of the BC is too much of a selling point for them and what they are marketing is what the uninformed general public think a BC looks like.

It's obviously not confined to BCs - compare a working lab (or any other retriever) or cocker with the show version, the racing whippet or greyhound with one in the conformation ring, the working JRT with its show counterpart the PRT.

 

Pam

 

You know, when I first started coming to the Boards I thought that having Barbie collies for people who don't work stock was a good thing too, but now I see things differently. Putting the Border Collie in the show ring has made breeding for traits other that working ability come into the breed. So the breed as a whole is eroded as far as what it does. And since what the BC does defines what it is, you can't have show BCs without going down the road to destroying the breed.

 

At this point I don't see why there need to be show-bed dogs of any kind. I can't see that anything good comes of it, at least not for the dogs.

 

If you lived in an apartment in a city and needed a car to do errands and drive 4 miles to work, why would you get a King-Cab, 4WD pickup with stock-racks? (Yeah, I know - people do... ) But seriously, you wouldn't say, "Oh! I just love the way those GMC super-sized trucks look! Why don't they make a tiny version in pink?" So why try to warp the BC into a laid-back, goofy, plush toy? Just go get a Shi Tzu. They're cute little dogs that get along with everybody, not too high-maintenance (if you can afford a groomer!) and will love you to death.

 

Leave the Border Collie to those who want the whole package, and are willing to put in the effort.

 

(edit) Hmmmmm... 2 car analogies from two people at the same moment. (almost.) Scary.