Tangent from Fetching thread

[puppytoes]

Last night i read the entire fetching thread. I didn't add anything because i felt like pretty much everything was said. But it did get me thinking. My situation is that i live in an urban setting (although we are very lucky in that we have great outdoor places for hiking and such) with a 12 year old and 20 month old border collie. Obviously i do not have sheep and my backyard could never be called acreage. My husband and i also work full time and i am not a huge fan of doggie daycare (no judgement just not right for my dogs). So that means that my dogs rely on me to provide some sort of activity that will satisfy both their mental and physical needs. I have found with both my dogs (even though they could not be more different in temperment or intensity) that walking on a leash is absolutely the most mindless activity for them (again, no judgemnet, just my personal experience with my 2 dogs). So that means that i needed to find something else. My preference has always been off leash forest walks in areas where other dogs go as well so they have some doggie time but mostly just a chance to run and stretch their legs and find out what is new in the hood. I tried to resist the fetching thing with Orbit because i felt that he had the potential to become obsessed. But he began stealing other dogs balls so we had to get some balls of our own to train some leave its, drops, that's not yours etc. So my dogs get at least one long off leash walk a day (sometimes 2 - in the summer we will go the the beach for off leash swimming as well) but there are times when there is not a ton of time or weather is not condusive to hiking or now i am 38 weeks pregnant and not comfortable taking them into the forest alone in the dark etc. SO the toys do come out.

 

Now that i have provided you with all of my "excuses" as they will be seen by some board members, let me get to my question at hand. We always talk about how border collies need to be stimulated mentally and not just physically or else they will find their own jobs to do. Would it not then stand to reason that a dog that is primarily exercised through so-called "mindless" means would then tend to be bored and ready to go 30 minutes after a game of fetch? The reason i ask this is because i am wondering if there is in fact a correlation between the kind of activity a dog does and how they are contained when they are not active. I have nothing against crates, i think they are a great training tool for your average dog and i consider them a step towards keeping your dog safe and keeping your property safe. I would think that if we are saying that fetch is mindless, then those people that use this type of activity would need to crate their dogs more often than people who engage in more mindful activity with their dogs. In my limited sample size, i have found that most people who live in the city with their border collies (and need to resort to more mindless activities)do not crate their dogs while away at work with no incidences, while the few people i know that have working sheep dogs, keep them kenneled while not working the sheep. I admit that i am a total novice and know next to nothing about sheepherding but shouldn't those dogs be able to turn off that magical border collie switch and just chill out because herding sheep is both physically and mentally challenging? Just curious!!

[Anda]

I'm an urban dog owner. We do play fetch. We also play lots of off leash games when we don't bring a toy (though toy is preffered by the canine part of our family). We never crated Ouzo. True - we had to pay for this a few times with stuff he got into as a pup, but those incidents fade in comparison with the peace of mind of being able to leave him alone at home from an early age. He gets three walks a day, at least one of them being off leash play time. We don't often play fetch in the house, though he does try his best to engage us by planting balls right under our feet or office chairs. The reason why we don't encourage indoor fetching is because of having downstairs neighbors who don't appreciate 48lbs of dog sounding like a herd of buffalos above their head. He has a miriad of stuffed toys which he knows by name and brings them to us on command. He often is happy to be squeaking a stuffie while keeping an eye on us. If we had our own house and no worries about noise, I am sure we'd be all playing indoor fetch

[juliepoudrier]

i am wondering if there is in fact a correlation between the kind of activity a dog does and how they are contained when they are not active.

 

I think you're sampling is probably not representative of the real world--by that I mean this statement "they keep them kenneled when they are not working." I have a bunch of dogs here and am currently at home most of the time. I do have crates for all my dogs and most of them are crated when I go out, but it's not because individually they don't have off switches. It's more to do with pack mentality (that is, one starting something that others join in on), or the fact that some of the dogs just don't get along, or that some of them are thunderphobes who do better crated if a storm comes up and I'm not here (I'm sure I could come up with additional examples, but you get the idea). When I am home, the only dogs who are crated routinely are the dog who is in for training (and likes to chew furniture) and the pup when I can't keep an eye on them (for example, if I take a nap the dog in for training and the pup both go in crates; everyone else stays loose). There are other folks who simply don't want dogs in the house and so have kennels for them and the dogs stay kenneled when not working. That's not a statement about whether those particular dogs have off switches, but rather a lifestyle statement (i.e., no dogs in the house). My neighbors (who raise sheep) have outside kennels for their dogs and the dogs stay there (most of them) during the day when the humans are at work. In the evenings the dogs come in the house and are crated, with several dogs loose in the house on rotation (this is because of social issues within the pack). These choices in kenneling, crating, or not have *nothing* to do with the type of exercise the dogs get, but rather with what makes sense to the individuals as far as dog management is concerned. And it may have as much to do with *numbers* of dogs as anything else. When I had just two or three dogs, they were rarely, if ever, crated (when I had just one dog he was *never* crated), but now that I have 11 in the house, yes, they are crated when I'm gone.

 

As I stated in the other thread, my dogs get two or three (usually two), off-leash walks a day. They get whatever work is needed to do chores (e.g., this morning two dogs went in the ram paddock with me to keep the ram back while I put out feed) and one dog went into the main pasture with me to hold off the flock while I put out feed--no exhausting work that--and there's certainly not enough work for all of them every day or even most days.And yet they all sleep quietly in the house (furniture chewer and puppy excepted) when I'm doing something like replying to threads on this forum.

 

Sometimes I crate dogs when we come in from working because they are covered in mud and I don't want them on the furniture or tracking it across the carpets in the house. If it's not so cold that the hose doesn't work, then I can hose the mud off, but then I still have a wet dog to deal with.

 

Your supposition that crates/kennels are used to "control" dogs who have no off switch is a faulty one. There are many reasons for using crates/kennels that have nothing to do with whether the dog is capable of settling or not nor anything to do with whether the dog has participated in mindless exercise (or any other type of exercise) or not....

 

J.

[Stacie R.]

I'm a suburban owner and do not work my dogs on sheep.

 

My dogs are crated (indoors) for their safety and to ease anxiety not because they don't have an off switch. One dog isn't always crated but for longer periods of time he is. Our younger dog is a nervous nellie and her crate is her safe place. She is markedly less anxious when crated while we are gone.

 

We also play fetch (with one dog at least, my youngest isn't interested). We also do on leash walks. I think either activity is as mindless or as engaging as the handler makes it. Since fetch has been discussed to death in another thread I won't go into that.

 

Walks don't have to be mindless. My dogs probably have more commands or learned behaviors relating to walk than anything else (except maybe agility). They have two different heel commands (also loose leash walking not on heel), commands to change positions, commands for ignoring distractions, automatic sits anytime I stop, and a variety of other behaviors that I expect on walks. They certainly don't just meander about on a leash stopping and starting when they feel like it and sniffing anything they want. They work when we walk (which is pretty much daily). It certainly isn't the only thing I do for mental and physical stimulation but it does play a part.

 

My dogs are not generally out of control or under stimulated so that has nothing to do with why or when they are crated.

[Ooky]

I am an urban owner who does "hobby herding" as our main special activity (as well as walks, hikes, fetch, trick training, a silly type of doggie dancing, and going to work with me, both office and field, 3x a week). I crate my dog, but as Julie says, not because he doesn't have an off-switch. I think it's another choice thing, but here are my reasons:

 

We started when we got him as a puppy because back then I really couldn't trust him. He was quite the chewer and needed it for his own safety. I've never crated him at night because I like him near the side of my bed and he never did anything bad at night. He hasn't chewed anything worse than a sock in over a year, but we still leave him crated most of the time when we leave. I've left him out and nothing has happened, but my husband prefers crating.

 

Also, to speak to the point you bring up, in our case it was recommended we use the crate by working dog trainers, because in stockwork I am trying to cultivate a relationship with him where he respects me more than the average pet respects their owner - and I am a naturally doting, spoiling pet dog mom with a high voice and a tendency to praise a lot and not issue stern enough corrections (none of these things being good for stockdog training). Most of the trainers I have been to seem to assume at first that because I am this way, I never crate my dog, which isn't true. But similar to military life, where discipline is both required and also changes a person, I've been advised to keep crating him regularly to maintain a more disciplined lifestyle than many pets experience (along with other stuff like insisting upon excellent leash manners in everyday life etc). I honestly don't know if this translates as I've been told, but it certainly doesn't hurt me or him, and as I said my husband prefers it, so I keep using the crate when we leave.

 

I also feed him in the crate because he has been known to get upset with the cat for coming near his food, and I think he should be able to eat in peace, knowing that no one can get at him and his food.

 

Also, when he comes to work with me (office), I keep him in his crate because I can then fully concentrate on my work, and leave my desk for long meetings as needed, until it is a time where I take him out and fully concentrate on him. Other people who do not crate their dogs at work are not usually told to take their dogs home, but they often have problems (like not being able to concentrate on their work for "babysitting", barking, whining, even reactivity issues) and no other dog is nearly as welcome or as frequent office-dog as he is. In his crate he is silent and you would never know if he was there or not unless you looked in it. Otherwise he is with me (or another coworker with my permission) and therefore under control. It seems to dazzle the other pet dog owners that he will "kennel up" from across the office on first command, and is so well mannered he is like a person with his own cubicle that "works" a normal 8-hour day (with breaks, lunch, and water cooler time, of course). But not my coworker from another office who has kelpies and a sheep farm - she knows it is no big deal to expect this from a dog.

 

Finally, I like knowing that I can use a crate in any situation I need to (vets, etc) and he is totally used to it.

[NorthfieldNick]

The crate for me has very little to do with how "worn out" my dog is. When I had two, they were always crated when left alone because I didn't trust Lu not to rearrange my house, or to not chew on Nick. Now that I'm down to one, I leave Nick loose more often than not. Yesterday, however, he was crated while I went to a holiday party because I had a new bag of dog food on the floor waiting to be put away. I mostly trusted him not to get into it, but why take the risk. The crate is my peace of mind. I don't have to worry when the dogs are crated.

 

Besides, if I've been really bad and haven't worked Nick enough, he just howls when he's crated.

[Anda]

OK, this might be the only thing that people who crate their dogs might miss on. This face when you park your car and are about to enter your home

 

[Sue R]

My crating largely depends on which dogs, how old, and how dependable. Before the Border Collies, I'd never heard of crating and so we never did. I could easily leave Megan and Celt free while we are gone to work, and could have done the same with Bute - as adults. With Dan, it's necessary to crate at this stage, and might always be beneficial anyway - I find that two dogs don't get into much trouble but three can result in more rowdiness.

 

My dogs are rarely crated when someone's home, unless it's to chew on fresh bones or because I'm doing something and need to not be interrupted, which is rare.

 

My dogs do work stock, are household companions, and enjoy walks and/or ball fetch, depending on what we can give them on any particular day. The crates are nice for when we need them - like the cell phone, we did fine without before we ever had one/them, but now I find myself dependent to one degree or another - or maybe I'm just spoiled.

 

And, one major benefit, should one or more dogs become ill, any mess is confined if they are crated and we are not home.

[Stacie R.]

I forgot to add in my first response I think all dogs should be comfortable in a crate even if they don't need to be in one everyday. I've seen dogs who in older age suffered from dementia and crating would have kept them much safer but they were never crate trained and by then it was too late. Dogs often need restricted activity to recover from an injury and what better place than a crate. In an emergency situation many evacuations require that dogs be crated. The examples are endless. I think every dog should be comfortable in a crate just in case.

[Sue R]

I forgot to add in my first response I think all dogs should be comfortable in a crate even if they don't need to be in one everyday. I've seen dogs who in older age suffered from dementia and crating would have kept them much safer but they were never crate trained and by then it was too late. Dogs often need restricted activity to recover from an injury and what better place than a crate. In an emergency situation many evacuations require that dogs be crated. The examples are endless. I think every dog should be comfortable in a crate just in case.

These are all excellent examples, and so it being able to be crated for travel and any form of being away from home, like at the vet's.

[SincereArtisan]

I'm with Stacy and Sue on this one. Crating is a vital TOOL for a dog's developmental process. Not a substitute for an 'Off Switch.'

 

My dogs were crated whenever I could not keep an eye on them as puppies, and then whenever I left the house as they grew into reliable adults. Now, it took 3 years but I do not have to crate them when I leave, but on those rare instances they do have to be crated, they do so with no fuss. THIS is what I consider most valuable about the crate training process, the ability to provide a safe, familiar haven in even the most unfamiliar and intimidating circumstances.

 

My dog Ido will fetch until her paws bleed, if you ask it of her. But she has been taught a very good "leave it" command, when I'm done throwing the ball. We do not have the resources for herding, but we dabble in SAR and agility, which are both mentally and physically challenging. Despite the fact that she is a VERY high drive active dog, she settles fine when I need her to. I do not need a crate to force her to chill. She's the smartest dog I know.

[Lenajo]

I kennel or crate my dogs while I'm at work for their own safety and comfort. It has nothing to do with an off switch.

 

I consider it preventative management.

[PSmitty]

I have nothing against crates, i think they are a great training tool for your average dog and i consider them a step towards keeping your dog safe and keeping your property safe. I would think that if we are saying that fetch is mindless, then those people that use this type of activity would need to crate their dogs more often than people who engage in more mindful activity with their dogs. In my limited sample size, i have found that most people who live in the city with their border collies (and need to resort to more mindless activities)do not crate their dogs while away at work with no incidences, while the few people i know that have working sheep dogs, keep them kenneled while not working the sheep. I admit that i am a total novice and know next to nothing about sheepherding but shouldn't those dogs be able to turn off that magical border collie switch and just chill out because herding sheep is both physically and mentally challenging? Just curious!!

 

I don't think what you mention here has anything to do with dogs having (or not) an "off switch". I think that the difference between "city people" not crating their dogs and "working people" kenneling their dogs is more about lifestyle and philosophy than the dogs themselves. Umm, trying to figure out how to say this and not offend. Some working people (not all, and certainly not pointing fingers here) seem to not consider their dogs as much pets, as working partners, and part of that, as Ooky said, is the belief that kenneling is part of not having a spoiled housepet. Oh, and more often than not, working folks have a larger number of dogs, and it's probably easier and safer to kennel, than have a bunch of dogs running loose. Another part of it, I believe, is that a lot of working people are just being sensible and keeping their dogs safe and out of trouble, while there is still a portion of the so called "pet people" that think crating pets is cruel and unusual (I know, I work with one). In rescue, we see dogs turned in to shelters for chewing the furniture and shoes, or chasing the chickens, but those same owners probably never thought of crating their dog! That's mean, right? (and being turned into a shelter is what?) Anyway, I realize that's a lot of generalizing, but I think there are several reasons for what you're observing in your sample.

 

I live in the city and other than hobby "herding", I fall in the pet people side of the spectrum. I crate my dogs for their safety and my peace of mind. They travel in crates for the same reason. I want them to be crate trained in case of emergency boarding (evacuation) or vet care. I don't think crating has instilled an off switch in any of them, they chill just as well out of a crate. Having said that, only my foster dog is currently crated, because the others have proven themselves to be reliable when left alone. But I know that should I need to, I can crate them all and they'd be fine and comfortable.

[JohnLloydJones]

Some working people (not all, and certainly not pointing fingers here) seem to not consider their dogs as much pets, as working partners, and part of that, as Ooky said, is the belief that kenneling is part of not having a spoiled housepet.

I have little knowledge of how working dogs are treated in the US, but I know that from what I remember of where I grew up (S. Wales), working sheep dogs were part of the family. There was no need to kennel or crate them to make a statement about their status.

[Lenajo]

I have little knowledge of how working dogs are treated in the US, but I know that from what I remember of where I grew up (S. Wales), working sheep dogs were part of the family. There was no need to kennel or crate them to make a statement about their status.

 

I checked with a friend of mine who made countless trips to the UK to bring back working dogs in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s and he said it was commen to use kennels, chaining, or some sort of confinement. The dogs aren't exactly clean after a day of work, and he didn't know of many shepherds who wanted that in their home. The average dogs were fine with a thick bed of straw in a spare barn stall - it was quiet, not to warm for a thick coated working dog, and the dog was out of trouble's way.

 

Then there is the issue of value - good working dogs and pups left unattended have poor life expectancies.

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's safe to say that working dogs in the US are treated in a variety of ways, just as pet dogs are. After all, there's the pampered pet who lives in the house, eats the finest food, and sleeps on the bed (and variatons thereof), and then there's the pet who lives its entire life chained to a tree or dog house with varying degrees of human interaction. There are also the pets, common here in rural NC, who live in a 10 x 10 kennel on the back of someone's property and are fed and watered regularly (maybe) and otherwise get little or no human interaction.

 

I imagine that the situation for working dogs in the UK is the same. Not all are kept in the house as family pets; some are kept outside in barns or kennels and some are kept in the house. Some of those that are housed outdoors are probably better cared for than some that are kept indoors and the same may be said for pets....

 

J.

[WildFlower]

I live in the city. I take stock lessons with my dogs at least once a month. My 2 dogs each also attend day care one day a week each (different days). We walk daily at a minimum of 20 minutes twice a day. And we play in the park when ever we can.

 

Daisy was never crated during the day. I puppy proofed my entire office and that was her "crate" until she was over a year old. She has no problem "going to bed" in a crate. She was crated at night when she was a pup, is crated for a few hours at day care, and will go into her crate whenever I give the command. Devon is crated during the day while I am at work and at night for bed. (He is 5.5 months old.) I started to give Daisy "whole" house privileges when she was a little over a year old and have had no incidents. Hopefully, Devon will earn the same privileges.

 

I do think an off switch is something that you "teach" your dog. My guys know that I enjoy sitting on the couch for a half hour before I go to bed. They now both curl up on the chair or couch with me for that time. Then we go out for potty for the last time and then all go to bed. I think it is really just teaching your dogs your routine and coupling that with the basic manners that you teach them. Both of my guys would play fetch or tug F.O.R.E.V.E.R. if I kept doing it. I just say "enough" and they stop. (Well, Devon is still a work in progress.)

[mum24dog]

I imagine that the situation for working dogs in the UK is the same. Not all are kept in the house as family pets; some are kept outside in barns or kennels and some are kept in the house. Some of those that are housed outdoors are probably better cared for than some that are kept indoors and the same may be said for pets....

 

You're dead right.

A friend's pet/agility dog spends it's days in an outside kennel and run while she is at work but the rest of the time he is the whole family's little prince (no kids). He has a better wardrobe and bigger personal needs budget than I do.

The cattle dog up the road spends a lot of time in a hole in the wall but seems quite happy.

A hobby shepherd keeps his BC as a pet and makes special biscuits for him coated with dog chocolate because the real thing isn't good for him.

I can't think of any full time working dogs that I know that are kept in the house but I'm sure there must be some.

Sleeping in a barn or purpose built kennel seems to be more the norm.

It makes sense to confine a working dog or tether it to keep it out of harm's way with the machinery around the sort of farms we have here.

If I had to describe a perfect life for a dog it's the one led by a couple of BC on a farm in Scotland. The owners are retired and just rent off the land. The dogs don't live in the house but have a warm and clean barn to sleep in and are well cared for as far as farm dogs go. They are loaned out to do a bit of work now and again but otherwise can do whatever they like. Doggy heaven to my mind.

 

Pam

[JohnLloydJones]

...and sleeps on the bed (and variatons thereof)

I don't recall anyone back at home who let their dogs up on furniture let alone on the bed. Oh, well maybe my uncle's Yorkshire Terrier was allowed on the sofa, but never real dogs. Dogs slept on the floor -- with maybe a basket or something to protect against drafts (and houses in Britain could be cold and drafty). The working dogs I knew slept in the outer kitchen (storage area) for the most part. They knew their place and didn't need to be confined or chained.

[Lenajo]

The working dogs I knew slept in the outer kitchen (storage area) for the most part.

 

You mean, like an American porch?

 

That's not a house dog or a "member of the family" as defined by living as an indoor "pet". That's just a house version of a kennel.

[JohnLloydJones]

You mean, like an American porch?

No.

That's not a house dog or a "member of the family" as defined by living as an indoor "pet". That's just a house version of a kennel.

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, but in my world, "family dogs" are not (necessarily) spoiled pets who sleep on the sofa or bed. I guess it's another instance of coming from a different culture.

[mum24dog]

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, but in my world, "family dogs" are not (necessarily) spoiled pets who sleep on the sofa or bed. I guess it's another instance of coming from a different culture.

 

If you're classing the UK and US as different cultures, then I don't think it is.

What you describe isn't what I would consider treating dogs as part of the family.

If you're considering Wales as having a different culture (which it does) then maybe.

 

Pam

[JohnLloydJones]

If you're classing the UK and US as different cultures, then I don't think it is.

What you describe isn't what I would consider treating dogs as part of the family.

If you're considering Wales as having a different culture (which it does) then maybe.

 

The US is not one homogeneous culture, nor is the UK (of which, Wales is a part). In fact I was referring to the cultural backgrounds of Lenajo and myself rather than US vs. UK as such.

[Ooky]

I don't recall anyone back at home who let their dogs up on furniture let alone on the bed. Oh, well maybe my uncle's Yorkshire Terrier was allowed on the sofa, but never real dogs. Dogs slept on the floor -- with maybe a basket or something to protect against drafts (and houses in Britain could be cold and drafty). The working dogs I knew slept in the outer kitchen (storage area) for the most part. They knew their place and didn't need to be confined or chained.

 

Emphasis added

 

This is exactly what I meant by respect and discipline beyond what is maybe typical for pets (gross generalization). Some pets "know their place" as being little princes and princesses without rules. But at the same time I will point out these same working dog trainers I was speaking of will let their good dogs sleep on the hotel bed when travelling and such, and they jump into their arms, etc. They are well-loved dogs as far as I can see, kennelled or crated or not.

 

I don't think it's cruel at all to keep your dogs in a kennel, by the way (outdoor), given they have adequate shelter (that changes based on the climate, obviously) and ample out-of-kennel activity. I never will because I like my dog in the house with me.

[mum24dog]

In fact I was referring to the cultural backgrounds of Lenajo and myself rather than US vs. UK as such.

 

Well it seems that Lenajo and I (in the north of England) share a common culture on this point.

 

Pam