Brodie's vampire snarl

[ejano]

Brodie is still revealing that silent vampirish snarl to Robin whenever he gets a chance. He's really at the low end of the totem pole. I know that Robin pushes him around a bit too much when they're outside playing and I try to keep a lid on that. I'll catch Robin "herding" Brodie or preventing him from coming back to the porch when I call (For which he is corrected)

 

When they come in, it's Brodie's turn to be difficult. Brodie snuggles up to Ken, or me, or even Ladybug and bares his teeth at Robin. They never guard food or toys anymore, mostly, I think that because of your suggestions, we are more aware of those kinds of resources and take steps to head off situations and they seem to have given up quarreling over resources. Brodie has just established this personal zone inside when he thinks he has reinforcements.

 

I see little progress in training Brodie out of this fang bearing thing. When Brodie finds sanctuary and feels safe, he'll bare his teeth when Robin comes by and predictably, Robin growls, which is often our first sign that the little sneak is at it again. We've tried , moving him from the spot he's guarding and isolating him in the time out crate for a few minutes, then letting him back when he settles down. I'm trying to catch the first sign of trouble and work to calm him and let him know he's safe when Robin approaches. He really does stiffen up and you can feel his neck muscles tighten as he thrusts his head forward. He might indeed bite one day, if he felt brave enough. He's got his rug and Robin has his and they do retreat to their spots voluntarily. I've been putting him in the time out crate and if I catch him starting, I reassure him as I call Robin over then they both get petted until Brodie calms down.

 

It's interesting that while Robin is king of the outdoors, Brodie rules inside.

 

Suggestions?

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

It seems to me that Robin is still bullying Brodie outside (you certainly can't watch them every second they're out there together) and Brodie responds in kind when he thinks it's safe to get away with it. You may never be able to break this little habit. I don't think it's helpful to put Brodie in a time out for snarling at Robin. Robin has been dominating Brodie and Brodie's response as a result is pretty natural. And unless you're expert at reading dog signals, I don't know how you can tell that Brodie is the one "starting it." More likely he's reacting to subtle signals from Robin of which you are unaware. To save everyone angst, why not just do a rotation indoors and out? These two are likely to never get along, so why not set up a pattern now where each can have alone time with the humans or in the yard with the other dog elsewhere? It's really not fair to Brodie to have Robin "pushing him around too much" outside, even if you are trying to keep a lid on it. And since they don't particularly like each other it's not as if they need yard or house time together so they can play. I mean, I don't put my dogs that dislike each other out in the yard together with the idea that they'll entertain each other, and really entertaining each other is the only reason dogs would need to go out together. I think keeping them separate most of the time, with co-existence only in very controlled situations where you can keep a constant eye on things (like with them on their mats chewing bones while you watch TV--that is, the dogs are in the same room but not interacting) it would make for happier dogs all around.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I rarely botther my dogs and their interactions except when Maddie stresses Genie enough to make her cry. If a dog wants to show only a smile to hold it's ground that's fine with me. Dal is one of the worst offenders and he never makes a sound doing it. He esp will do it over a high value treat that isnt only for him, ike a box of something in the car. Then I will give him the knock it off command.

 

As for as the herding thing I let them work that out too. Occ a light scuffle errupts over it but, most times it's harmless.

 

What your going through is why they dont recommend same sex siblings in a household. It's increases rivalry.

 

Good luck

[ejano]

It seems to me that Robin is still bullying Brodie outside (you certainly can't watch them every second they're out there together) and Brodie responds in kind when he thinks it's safe to get away with it. You may never be able to break this little habit. I don't think it's helpful to put Brodie in a time out for snarling at Robin. Robin has been dominating Brodie and Brodie's response as a result is pretty natural. And unless you're expert at reading dog signals, I don't know how you can tell that Brodie is the one "starting it." More likely he's reacting to subtle signals from Robin of which you are unaware. To save everyone angst, why not just do a rotation indoors and out? These two are likely to never get along, so why not set up a pattern now where each can have alone time with the humans or in the yard with the other dog elsewhere? It's really not fair to Brodie to have Robin "pushing him around too much" outside, even if you are trying to keep a lid on it. And since they don't particularly like each other it's not as if they need yard or house time together so they can play. I mean, I don't put my dogs that dislike each other out in the yard together with the idea that they'll entertain each other, and really entertaining each other is the only reason dogs would need to go out together. I think keeping them separate most of the time, with co-existence only in very controlled situations where you can keep a constant eye on things (like with them on their mats chewing bones while you watch TV--that is, the dogs are in the same room but not interacting) it would make for happier dogs all around.

 

J.

 

 

Good suggestions, Julie. I couldn't help but think that crate time was just exacerbating the problem as it takes away the security that Brodie feels. He's a little lovebug, quite the snuggler. We'll just keep trying to build his confidence.

 

I have been rotating them out by themselves some of the time and they each sit there in the yard quite forlornly waiting for the other to come around. I am either out there with them, or looking out of the back door window since Robin jumped the fence a few months ago in pursuit of a crow --I've trained them out of that game, thank goodness. (six feet is apparently not tall enough to keep a Border Collie in and I don't intend to lose another dog to the road like I did Scotty, or to hunters, bobcats, coyotes, or whatever else might be lurking out there to hurt my babies !) so I'm handy to jump on Robin if/when he gets pushy. (ETA - Inside, I rotate them out of their crates when I am doing housework or whatever, and of course, each gets to go on trips alone)

 

Most of the time they are quite friendly with each other The secret outside is in how long they are together. When they've had time to visit and romp a bit, then boredom sets in and Robin starts pushing him around. Inside, its still a mystery, but I know Robin goes to great lengths to avoid walking past Brodie -- he walks along the fireplace ledge, across the couch, under the coffee table, anywhere but inside Brodie's personal space. Yet, in the next second, they've forgotten it and are curled up together or playing tug of war with the rope.

 

Hormones, perhaps???? I've made an appt for neutering in January -- can't wait through next summer, especially with Robin's fence jumping capabilities. They'll be nearly a year old and won't be working very hard throughout their lives so I don't think I need to worry about growth plates, etc. and it will make life easier all around, I think.

 

BTW, Robin did try to lift his leg again and again the cat was right by him. They've become pals of sorts, even though their hide and seek play is irritating as heck. I really roared at him and he just went flat. I don't think he'll try it again.

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

As for as the herding thing I let them work that out too. Occ a light scuffle errupts over it but, most times it's harmless.

I don't tolerate my dogs trying to work one another. For one thing it's annoying to me and to the dog being "worked" and for another I think it encourages a poor mindset in the dog doing the working when it comes time to actually work stock. I have a dog here for training now who has been allowed to work other dogs and he tends to tune out, which makes my job of training him on stock that much more difficult. Maybe that's not so much of an issue for folks who don't work stock with their dogs, but I say beware of the mindset that goes with that kind of behavior. It's inappropriate. My general rule around here is that everyone needs to leave the others alone. Play (real play, not one dog "working" another) is allowed, but all other obnoxious behavior is swiftly corrected.

 

I have same-sex dogs who do not get along but are manageable. My mixed set of siblings gets into squabbles every day, generally centered around excitement when they think we're going to work (like when I'm out feeding sheep or the LGD or whatever). They don't squabble in the house or on walks--it's pretty much only when they think we're going to work. At those times it's bad enough with opposite sex siblings--I'd never want to take on same-sex sibs (I'd probably kill them myself for their nasty behavior before they had a chance to kill each other).

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I don't tolerate my dogs trying to work one another. For one thing it's annoying to me and to the dog being "worked" and for another I think it encourages a poor mindset in the dog doing the working when it comes time to actually work stock. I have a dog here for training now who has been allowed to work other dogs and he tends to tune out, which makes my job of training him on stock that much more difficult. Maybe that's not so much of an issue for folks who don't work stock with their dogs, but I say beware of the mindset that goes with that kind of behavior. It's inappropriate. My general rule around here is that everyone needs to leave the others alone. Play (real play, not one dog "working" another) is allowed, but all other obnoxious behavior is swiftly corrected.

 

I have same-sex dogs who do not get along but are manageable. My mixed set of siblings gets into squabbles every day, generally centered around excitement when they think we're going to work (like when I'm out feeding sheep or the LGD or whatever). They don't squabble in the house or on walks--it's pretty much only when they think we're going to work. At those times it's bad enough with opposite sex siblings--I'd never want to take on same-sex sibs (I'd probably kill them myself for their nasty behavior before they had a chance to kill each other).

 

J.

 

 

I may not know what true dog working a dog is. I would guess Dave is most likely guilty of it at the rescue since he chases who ever is playing. The other dogs seem to ignore him so it still may not be it. It is painfully obvious though he's not in it for the fetch but, the dog who is running out.

[urge to herd]

I agree with Julie about many things, but I'll just pick a couple: herding other dogs isn't fun for the herdee, and if there was one thing I could go back and change w/Shoshone, it would be nipping that habit in the bud. It contributed a LOT to the ongoing tension between the two girls.

 

The other thing is taking more control of the 2 boys. Put their mats where they can't see each other. Feed them where they can't see each other. Train them to do a sit and/or down from a distance, then when you step onto the back porch, call them in one at a time, varying who gets to come in first while the other waits. Teach them send aways, too, just to practice their focus on you and to give you some ability to put more distance between them.

 

Giving Shonie time outs only made her worse, her SA and focus on me made her more anxious, not less. I'd put both dogs into their places as soon as they come in and not allow any wandering around the house for right now. Again, call them to you or Ken, (hope the husband is trainable!), give them whatever affection you want to, cuddling, playing briefly, just hanging out. The big deal is that they do it on your terms and timing, not on theirs.

 

Brodie is not feeling safe when he growls or snarls, he's feeling defensive. The snarl/growl interaction is towards the end of the "I'm feeling uneasy" response, it's not the beginning. You need to prevent it from even starting.

 

I wouldn't leave them out together for right now, there's just way too much temptation to start something. Give the more structured routine a month at least, maybe more.

 

Good luck! I feel your pain.

 

Ruth

[ejano]

I agree with Julie about many things, but I'll just pick a couple: herding other dogs isn't fun for the herdee, and if there was one thing I could go back and change w/Shoshone, it would be nipping that habit in the bud. It contributed a LOT to the ongoing tension between the two girls.

 

The other thing is taking more control of the 2 boys. Put their mats where they can't see each other. Feed them where they can't see each other. Train them to do a sit and/or down from a distance, then when you step onto the back porch, call them in one at a time, varying who gets to come in first while the other waits. Teach them send aways, too, just to practice their focus on you and to give you some ability to put more distance between them.

 

Giving Shonie time outs only made her worse, her SA and focus on me made her more anxious, not less. I'd put both dogs into their places as soon as they come in and not allow any wandering around the house for right now. Again, call them to you or Ken, (hope the husband is trainable!), give them whatever affection you want to, cuddling, playing briefly, just hanging out. The big deal is that they do it on your terms and timing, not on theirs.

 

Brodie is not feeling safe when he growls or snarls, he's feeling defensive. The snarl/growl interaction is towards the end of the "I'm feeling uneasy" response, it's not the beginning. You need to prevent it from even starting.

 

I wouldn't leave them out together for right now, there's just way too much temptation to start something. Give the more structured routine a month at least, maybe more.

 

Good luck! I feel your pain.

 

Ruth

Thanks Ruth, Husband is trainable...for the most part. As I noted with Julie, I felt like putting Brodie away seemed to be making him more vulnerable.He does have SA as well so you're right, the separation just plays into it.

 

And, as Julie noted, the exchanges tend to occur when we all meet up after being apart for awhile so managing that is something to pay attention to. Brodie went visiting tonight and when they came back, he was good. They have mats where they can't see each other, though their crates are side by side and have been right from the beginning (a mistake I know, but fostered by a lack of space and convenience ). Ladybug used to step in and stop their little puppy squabbles like any good mother would but once they got to be about five months old, she said, "I'm done - your turn now." This behavior is about a month old, so hopefully we've got time to correct it.

 

I agree about the herding. It's a darned nuisance they way its happening in this situation. They play and chase for a bit, then all of a sudden the switch flips, and they get serious. I can tell when its going to start and if I'm fast enough, I can step in and stop Robin who is testing his powers, playing a cat and mouse game. He's been like that right from the beginning, seeing just how much mischief he can stir up. In puppy class he tried to stare down a Stafford shire Bull Terrier and caused quite a commotion...then he turned to one of those beautiful Anatolian sheep dogs and the dog said, "Give it up kid, you're just a pipsqueak" and Robin just shrugged and looked away. He's very self confident, but quite affable. Brodie is like his mama with a genuinely sweet nature. He's a real cuddlebug and is not at all shy of people. Give him an entry and he's wrapped around your neck like one of those old fox stoles.

I didn't think enough of the herding when it started as Scotty and Lady used to play sheep and wolf all the time -- he was always the sheep and didn't seem to mind it but Brodie is actually the more "cued in" as far as herding goes and really hates to be the sheep. If I'm not careful, Robin will get his comeuppance when Brodie goes for herding lessons in the spring and gains confidence in what he's doing. He needs more opportunities to learn how to be his own dog and be comfortable in his own skin.

 

As for bringing in same sex siblings, if I'd been in my right mind, I wouldn't have done it. . Or even gotten two puppies even close to the same time. Robin and I were a match right from the start and in visiting him over the weeks, Ken and Brodie developed such a mutual attraction...I thought, gosh, there has to be a reason these two are so well suited. Ladybug is Ken's girl and well, she's nine years old now...I don't want to think about losing her. Everyone knows what that's like. But Brodie will be there for him.

 

I researched and knew the problems we were letting ourselves in for and have from the start, been active in giving them opportunities to develop separately. And, for the most part the "boys" do well together, but it is a tremendous amount of work. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who was working away from home or more than part time because the dogs become your life. It's like having twin babies -- a great deal of work and effort all the time along with some fun moments,at least during this growing up phase. When Ken takes Ladybug and one or the other, or I take one somewhere away from home, its so much easier to work and talk with just one of them. One could do so much more training and interaction with just one dog and I feel like they both suffer for lack of attention...but then, I had only one child so perhaps that's just the way it is and I never knew it.

 

Enough philosophy -- gotta go play with the pups .

[Shetlander]

Well, remember the good thing about chronic problems is you have lots of opportunities to find the solution. Since returning from the yard is a trigger for tension and posturing, you may want to change either letting them out together or how they are brought back into the house. Maybe put them in a sit stay and call them one by one into the house. It's a good lesson in control. I've been doing that with Quinn and my Lhasa, except in reverse -- when they leave the house to go into the yard. For a change it wasn't because of their rivalry so much as they were too wound up and doing things I didn't like (running to fence fight or big, loud, stupid barking at nothing). By doing a sit-stay and waiting for a release, they are in a totally different (calm, attentive) mindset. I alternate who gets to go first -- currently basing it on which ever one sits fastest or doesn't start to break in anticipation.

 

It seems another trigger for your dogs is attention from you and your husband. Again, you may want to avoid the set up (rotating one at a time ffor pets and snuggling) or work on getting the behaviors you want through positive reinforcement and/or eliminating the ones you dislike through correction. Your dogs are still at that "handful" age so needing touch up on certain training issues is pretty normal. Their rivalry/dislike means that they may always need to refresher courses for appropriate behaviors and a fair amount of management from you. This isn't ideal but is better than dogs that are trying to injure or kill each other which is what can happen if the rivarly spirals out of your control.

 

 

Good luck. I bet neutering does help with your guys, but they may never be friends. That's ok. Sometimes peaceful coexistance is the best we can hope for with our little packs.

[Ooky]

I have been rotating them out by themselves some of the time and they each sit there in the yard quite forlornly waiting for the other to come around.

 

I may be off-base since I have only the one dog, but this is what Odin does whenever he's put outside without a person. He tends to pee if he has to and then stand near the door looking forlornly at it. He loves being outside, but is bored by himself. I've never tried it, but I'm betting if I left him for 20 minutes or more he'd go away from the door and start digging a hole or something else he's not supposed to do. I'm just saying the lone pup may not be missing the other or waiting for them, but just feeling bored and missing stimulation from you or anything else.

 

He also grins at dogs that are jerks to him - if he's getting along with a dog and/or the dog is polite, no grin. But if he is irritated by a dog, usually one I can tell is annoying and clueless, the grin comes out. It's never been followed by a bite.

 

Good luck with this! I think separating them most of the time sounds like a good idea too. And who knows, maybe after the neuter they will mellow towards each other?

[ejano]

I may be off-base since I have only the one dog, but this is what Odin does whenever he's put outside without a person. He tends to pee if he has to and then stand near the door looking forlornly at it. He loves being outside, but is bored by himself. I've never tried it, but I'm betting if I left him for 20 minutes or more he'd go away from the door and start digging a hole or something else he's not supposed to do. I'm just saying the lone pup may not be missing the other or waiting for them, but just feeling bored and missing stimulation from you or anything else.

 

He also grins at dogs that are jerks to him - if he's getting along with a dog and/or the dog is polite, no grin. But if he is irritated by a dog, usually one I can tell is annoying and clueless, the grin comes out. It's never been followed by a bite.

 

Good luck with this! I think separating them most of the time sounds like a good idea too. And who knows, maybe after the neuter they will mellow towards each other?

 

I read somewhere that a Border Collie definitely needs interaction - more so than other breeds. They want to be with you, doing something productive. If the owner/handler isn't there, they just wait.

 

I've been thinking it over and perhaps its just "I'm here, I"m safe, leave me alone." kinda thing. I'll work double hard to be sure RObin doesn't pick at him for his own amusement when they're outside. Robin never does that inside. They're pretty well behaved.

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

You know, if you're having to watch them that closely while out in the yard (and you should), then why not take them out separately and play with them yourself? There's no way that just by watching you can prevent all the aggressive signals that Robin is presenting to Brodie. Play with them yourself while they're outside individually and give them interactive toys for the times they're outside (individually) so they have something to do when you can't personally interact. I think you'll actually spend less time if you let them out separately than you are now trying to manage their interactions together, which you can't completely do since you can't control each dog's body signals to the other.

 

Others have mentioned that returning from the yard is a trigger and that there are ways to manage that. I would go a step further and say that returning from the yard is not just a trigger, but also a symptom of some of the interactions that are going on *in* the yard. I don't believe for a minute that they are out there happily playing with one another and the trouble starts only when you call them in. There are signals going on between those two long before you ever call them in. You've already said that Robin harasses Brodie by working him. That's the obvious harassment. I'd be willing to bet that there is a *lot more* subtle harassment going on out there too.

 

What you have to understand is that you aren't ever likely going to be able to make these two friends. Whenever they are together and unsupervised, they are going to butt heads, even if there's not obvious physical squabbling. It's stressful for both dogs. You have a choice here to allow each dog to live a happier more stress-free life, and that involves keeping them separated when you aren't right there between them. If you don't want to do this, for whatever reason, then resign yourself to the fact that your dogs are going to continue to growl, snap, whatever. You can create some sort of uneasy truce between them but you can't make them friends, so you need to change your mindset there and start to realize that you are facing a life of managing their interactions, 24/7. I'm sorry of this sounds harsh, but until you can admit to yourself that these two can't be made to be friends and that by continuing to throw them together in the yard you are actually exacerbating the problem, you won't be able to move forward with them.

 

Oh, and your comment about stock training for Brodie. While it will certainly give him more confidence and create a great partnership with you (or your husband, whoever works him), it won't change his relationship with Robin, period.

 

To the person who said that one of her dogs liked to be the dog and the other the sheep, sorry, dogs don't think that way. I've yet to see a dog who enjoyed being worked by another.

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

though their crates are side by side and have been right from the beginning (a mistake I know, but fostered by a lack of space and convenience

 

I understand lack of space AND convenience, but if there is ANY feasible way to make it so that the crates aren't next to each other you should try to do it. I'm here to tell you - dogs that don't like each other very much and are crated next to each other *will* trash talk to each other. It will contribute to the tension - and at this point anything you can do to help them is worth doing.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for mentioning that Laura--I meant to say something in one of my other posts about that. If you can't separate the crates, then at least make sure they CAN'T see each other (that is, put something solid between the two crates). I even have to do this in my van sometimes if I can't avoid crating side-by-side two dogs that are inclined to snark at one another.

 

J.

[ejano]

You know, if you're having to watch them that closely while out in the yard (and you should), then why not take them out separately and play with them yourself? There's no way that just by watching you can prevent all the aggressive signals that Robin is presenting to Brodie. Play with them yourself while they're outside individually and give them interactive toys for the times they're outside (individually) so they have something to do when you can't personally interact. I think you'll actually spend less time if you let them out separately than you are now trying to manage their interactions together, which you can't completely do since you can't control each dog's body signals to the other.

 

To the person who said that one of her dogs liked to be the dog and the other the sheep, sorry, dogs don't think that way. I've yet to see a dog who enjoyed being worked by another.

 

J.

 

Hi Julie, good points. What happens is they are chasing around in the yard, happy go lucky, then someone flips a switch and Robin starts harassing Brodie, herding him around, pouncing on him. Sometimes Brodie instigates the chasing game but it still ends with him upset because Robin has gotten the better of him so when he gets inside where he has a protector - me, or Ken, he snarls silently at him. Picture two little boys in the playground and one runs to Mamma because its gotten too rough. This started about a month ago. (Halloween, I think) - about the same time that Robin got remarkably bigger than Brodie - both taller and heavier. Brodie's catching up though he'll never be as big boned as Robin.

 

I have been going out with them individually ...getting a little one on one time as well as a quick lesson on something. They do enjoy the individual attention.

 

.... it was me who said that Scotty was okay being the sheep -And the game was sheep and wolf -- or,if you like, tag your " it" - pure chasing, no herding. Scotty was a rescue, an "only" dog from a suburban home, most likely from pet lines as he didn't have any real interest in livestock. He didn't feel threatened or bullied by her. He was just happy to be playing a game and he loved to run. He'd never had a chance in his first four years to flat out run, so he was happy running at full speed with or without Ladybug in pursuit. When I think of him now, its an image of him flat out running in the field behind the horse barn at the farm. I buried him on the edge of that field. If the pups were happy to chase each other like Scotty and Ladybug, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

Thanks for all of your tips regarding handling Robin and Brodie. I've been able to pinpoint where the problem is and move to correct it. I"m more aware of their posturing now and will be able to prevent a real problem from growing. Robin is growing up faster than Brodie -- he's starting to really look like an adult male dog now and he definitely needs more to do and Brodie is on the timid side so he's an easy target. They are for the most part, good pals who willingly share resources and don't raise a fuss with each other just out of simple dislike.

 

 

As for in their crates...the only problem there is when the cat goes up and smacks the cage door. They're calm and quiet and never even try to look at or bother each other. I'm in the study with them during the day when they're crated and they're just down from the bedroom so I'd hear them at night if they were going after each other when I wasn't in the room. It doesn't happen because they don't actively dislike each other in the way that some of the others have been described on the boards. They're delighted to see each other if they've been separated for five minutes or five hours. Brodie's just tired of being pushed around and I can't say that I blame him.

[ejano]

The other thing is taking more control of the 2 boys. Put their mats where they can't see each other. Feed them where they can't see each other. Train them to do a sit and/or down from a distance, then when you step onto the back porch, call them in one at a time, varying who gets to come in first while the other waits. Teach them send aways, too, just to practice their focus on you and to give you some ability to put more distance between them.

 

 

 

Ruth

 

This was really helpful. I've been trying to find ways to work with all three together (Ladybug insists on being in the mix too, which complicates things) and doing so definitely lets them know that I'm the leader of this little pack. We've had fun tonight doing variations of sit, down, and stay, practicing for the big XMAS picture...the thing that intrigues me about Border Collies is that they are so darned happy to be going anything with you.

 

If by "send away", you mean "Go lay down", then we're working on that to...I also found out tonight that Robin knows what "take a break means"...a new phrase for him. He headed right for his mat, which is something we've been working on. Brodie is learning where his mat is and as for Ladybug, well who needs a mat when you've got a recliner?

 

 

 

Liz