Another border collie color genetics question

[Little Bo Boop]

I'm pretty sure the parents were who they said they were...of course you never know, but I've no reason to believe othewise. I did see both the parents (if they were indeed the right ones ;-) ) This was back in '91, when red and white border collies were just coming in 'vogue' (at least here in Texas) and the claim that they were rare...I don't care for red dogs, so I was happy to get a black and white dog ;-) but these folks really wanted some red pups/dogs. They were reg. with the old Registry? The American International Border Collie Ass. ? I just thought it very odd that the whole litter turned out black and white...not even a tri ;-) So answer me that question, and then tell me what color Stella is ;-) and I'll buy you a margarita! ;-)

[SoloRiver]

Was one of the parents a sable? Lassie color?

 

Stelly is a saddleback sable with heavy ticking. Isn't her dam a saddleback sable (GSD color)?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tess is B/W. Her sire was red. She was bred to Pleat twice and both litter, she had red pups. Pleat was not red and nor was his dam/sire but somewhere in his background there was a red dog.

 

Imagine my surprise when two red pups popped out of her at her first litter.

 

I have two red dogs in Open. Roo and Lucy. People ask me about the red dogs all the time. "How do I like them? "

 

I answer back "I overlook that they are red because they overlook the fact that I am half Japanese"

 

It is what that is inside that counts to me.

[Little Bo Boop]

Was one of the parents a sable? Lassie color?

 

Stelly is a saddleback sable with heavy ticking. Isn't her dam a saddleback sable (GSD color)?

 

 

Are you asking about the blk/wht dog out of two red dogs? No, no sable, just plain old red dogs.

 

As far as Stelly, she would not be considered saddleback nor sable IME. One, she has no 'saddle' and I see no sable in her at all. Her body is predominately 'blue', her legs are ticked a light red/white, and then from her neck up its rainbow colored ;-) dark rust,silver,black,blue.white....I guess she could be considered a heavily ticked tri or quad LOL I don't know...Now her brother Brock is a true saddleback, just like their mother, and they're both ticked as well. One other thing I've never understood, is how/why Stella is considered white factored? Is it because she is basically a white dog with the black hairs/ticking?

[juliepoudrier]

One other thing I've never understood, is how/why Stella is considered white factored? Is it because she is basically a white dog with the black hairs/ticking?

That would be my guess. Someone could look at my Phoebe and miss that she's white factored because of the heavy ticking. Pip, who is mostly white and less ticked, would not be missed as white factored. If Pip were as heavily ticked as Phoebe, then he'd look something like Stella over his body.

 

Melanie,

I thought saddleback was another form of black tri and not a variation of sable?

 

 

J.

[ejano]

Liz,

Betty's point is that if red is recessive, and it is, then if both parents are red, they have only a b to contribute to the puppies at the brown locus, and therefore all puppies should also then be bb, that is, red/brown. Because red is recessive, a litter like Robin's from B&W parents can have red pups, since the parents could carry the b gene without actually expressing it, that is, they could be Bb (but both parents would have to be heterozygous, that is Bb, at the B locus before red could be expressed phenotypically in any pups). What Betty is asking is how is it possible for two red parents, who by definition would be bb, to produce B&W pups, who by definition would have to have at least one B gene at that same locus, since neither red parent would be able to contribute the B needed to produce black. The only answer I can think of is if there is another gene at a different locus or chromosome that could override the lack of melanin production as coded by bb (which is what allows the red eumalanin to show through) to allow melanin to be produced to produce a black dog. I think perhaps the DNA research done by Dr. Schmutz et al. (since they have determined that there is a separate dominant black locus in border collies, labeled K) could possibly explain such a phenomenon, but don't know enough about the genetics to say for sure.

 

J.

 

Thank you Julie, I did misunderstand the original post.

 

On a different note, I went to my first obedience class last night (see my other post - Robin herding puppy classmates) and there were five dogs, counting robin with red noses -- another border collie pup, an aussie, a miniature pincher, and a husky -- all were red and white or in the case of the min pin, solid red....Robin was the only red tri.

 

What is it about the red bcs that makes their coat unpopular? Is it connected with certain behaviors i.e. paint horses have a reputation among some horsemen for being stubborn?

 

 

Liz

[Liz P]

I have a question, I am a total genetics dunce, so if its a stupid question, sorry ;-) The first reg. Border Collie I ever owned, was traditional blk/white, yet he came out of two red/wht. dogs. there were 8 in the litter, and all were blk/wht, they didn't throw a single red dog. Is that a normal occurance? or would that be considered a tad odd?

 

First I would question if the red male was really the sire. If he was the sire I would check to see if the dam was a chimera. I would suspect you see chimeras in dogs far more often than in people. There are other possibilities, like a mutation that occurs in the dam's eggs, but they are much less likely.

 

Chimeras occur when 2 embryos fuse during development, leading to a single animal with a mosaic of cells.

[Liz P]

Are you asking about the blk/wht dog out of two red dogs? No, no sable, just plain old red dogs.

 

As far as Stelly, she would not be considered saddleback nor sable IME. One, she has no 'saddle' and I see no sable in her at all. Her body is predominately 'blue', her legs are ticked a light red/white, and then from her neck up its rainbow colored ;-) dark rust,silver,black,blue.white....I guess she could be considered a heavily ticked tri or quad LOL I don't know...Now her brother Brock is a true saddleback, just like their mother, and they're both ticked as well. One other thing I've never understood, is how/why Stella is considered white factored? Is it because she is basically a white dog with the black hairs/ticking?

 

Stella is sable, but she is so heavily white factored that you don't get that nice saddle pattern. Although, the way the tan vs black spots are laid out does correspond to where a saddle sable would be black and tan. Could you post pics of Stella from birth to the present? I would want to see pics of her at less than a week old, about 8 weeks old and then a year or older. A really close up shot of her black ticked areas and her face as an adult would be great as well. If I am remembering this correctly she is not dilute. Rough coated dogs with black ticking look blue because of the mix of black and white hairs.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

Betty started a new color genetics thread regarding Stella here. Pictures of Stella, parents, and some siblings are there.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Stella is a color genetics question all her own - I think she's the closest I will ever see to all the colors of the rainbow in one dog.