Teaching the down and recall

[Sue R]

I've taken previous pups, and also Dan, to puppy classes and done a lot of basic "family dog" or manners training with treats and luring. And, I have to admit, that while the dogs' responses off stock have been pretty good, the down on stock has not been what I'd like although, for Celt, it is improving with my doing better as a handler.

 

I wonder if there is an approach I could use on Celt as an adult dog to sharpen the down on stock - he oftentimes stays on his feet which doesn't bother me when we are working cattle and if he isn't pressuring the stock. But he also tends to take steps after the command, and I'd like to improve that and cut those out.

 

Dan is another kind of pup. He is much more independent, he's thoughtful, and he's a challenge to me as he seems to really need a good reason to do things. He is treat-motivated, and sometimes he's simply quick to respond. But other times, he's in his own world and I have to go and walk to him to remind him that I am calling him or telling him to down. His temperment is something new to me and I'm not sure how to work with it. He can be quite stubborn at times.

 

I thought I'd put this out to the "collective" and see what folks prefer as far as methods (I realize that treats are not a stockdog training tool, but I'm using them in the context of companion dog training only, and the down and recall would carry over into future stockwork). I'd like responses from people who use their dogs on stock, not from the point of view of performance or companion dogs, please.

[dracina]

Hi Sue:

 

You mentioned that the response off stock was pretty good, but on stock the response is iffy. I was wondering: are you using the same command for down both on and off stock?

 

I have the same problem, and my trainer suggested changing his on-stock language to something totally different than what he has learned off-stock. For example, if Jack is off-stock, I use "lie down". On stock, I am introducing "dirt" as his down command (like, "hit the dirt"). So, basically, he sees it as a whole different command, and I have a fresh start training him how I want him to down on the stock.

 

I have just started using this technique, so I will have to see how it pans out, but it kind of makes sense to me.

 

Karrin

[Mark Billadeau]

Personally, I think dogs are contextual; they learn what the command means for each context (on stock/off stock). If they learn that "down", or what ever word(s) you use, means to be on their belly off stock but on stock you accept a stop (standing or on their belly); that is what they will do with that command in each context. Putting it another way, they learn when (context) you really mean it and are willing to enforce it vs. when you won't.

 

Mark

[Sue R]

In the "context" of what you are saying, Mark, I don't have any objections to a standing stop on stock as long as the dog is not "leaning" into it and applying pressure that I don't want. With the cattle, I rarely want Celt to lie down but prefer he stays on his feet for most stops. Perhaps people are more insistent in actually going "all the way down" on sheep?

 

What I really don't like to see is that he is liable to take steps after the command - I realize that, if he's running fast or turning, it will take a few steps to stop, but sometimes he's really cheating in terms of continuing on for a distance when that's not what I'm needing and not what he should be doing.

 

I know there are several ways to teach the down (luring, hand pressure, boot on leash) and the recall (long line with tugs or reeling in, walking the dog down). I'm curious as to what techniques folks find most effective and preferable in terms of giving them the final result that they want.

 

And, on an adult like Celt, how do people choose to sharpen up the response - do you go back to square one and train as if they don't know anything or do something else to improve your results?

[Debbie Meier]

Hi Sue,

 

I noticed with my own dogs that I have had the habit of accepting a stop or pause when I say down while working stock, after just accepting a stop a few times my dog will get less reliable when I actually want him to lie down, basically by accepting only a stop or pause I have taught them that down means stop/pause in which ever fashion you see fit.

 

ETA: I was typing when you explained further, same deal with the walking a few steps, if I accept it I get it, if I have to I will take it to a smaller area where I can make it clear that I will not accept anything short of a full stop.

 

At a trial last summer another handler asked me what I wanted my dog to do when I told him to lie down, this was after my run, I said lie down, she said; "then you need to make sure he lies down, but during your run when you said lie down your dog stopped, it was the right thing for him to do." Talk about giving you something to think about on the way home and days after.

 

Another thing I have noticed with some dogs, if the dog is bumping the stock hard while flanking or if they slice they will resist lying down, the bump/slice causes the stock to move off, when you ask for the lie down the dog fears the escape of the stock, which makes it hard for them to stop. It always seems easier to get a solid stop/lie down when the dog is comfortable with his ability to control the stock(did that make sense?)

 

As far as teaching the actual lie down, with the group of littermates I'm working with right now I've done it both away from stock and on stock, with JJ the opportunity arose one day in the kitchen, he was sitting there looking at me, I bent down, drew he attention down to the floor with my finger he followed it and slipped into a down, I repeated it labled it and ever since he has had a great down, I would test it and work it out in the yard being sure to enforce each time he did not respond properly, it transferred right over to stock. With his littermate Dixie, I did the same lesson but while out with the livestock, first showing her what I wanted, labeling it. I then asked for it a couple of times while she was looking at the stock, making sure that she stayed looking at the stock when she executed it, progressed to asking for it in mid flank and mid drive. JJ's down is more reliable, I'm thinking due to him having a better concept of it before going to stock, so I plan on going that route with the rest of my pups. Just a note, JJ is pretty steady with his stock, so I'm trying to get out of the habit of using a lie down and letting him keep the flow going, it's more just a flank and a there back to a flank, I will use the lie down if he is driving and I want him to stop or if I'm not seeing him adjust pressure correctly.

 

I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but it seems to be working.

 

With recalls, I get them working good off of stock with a cord if needed (the so-so recall before going to stock just doesn't cut it), and then make sure that I get it when I have them on stock, as soon as I see that they are not responding I get in there and rebuild it, first just by getting their attention, then by getting them to commit to me and eventually coming all the way to me.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Sue,

I see nothing wrong with using treats to solidify a recall, even for a stockdog. All dogs are different, and frankly, I don't think I ever would have gotten a decent recall on Phoebe without them (treats *and* a long line, to be honest). Don't let your perceptions of what's acceptable in the stockdog world vs. the companion dog world prevent you from training basic commands in the way that's most comfortable for you. Basic obedience and manners are just that, no matter what your future plans are for your dogs.

 

As for the lie down, I agree with Mark that dogs can understand different commands in context (I think that comment was directed more toward Dracina's post). If you want to re-teach Celt his stop, you will have to be willing to be consistent and reinforce it *every time.* Otherwise, he's going to always think that a few steps is acceptable. Denise Wall uses the word "stop" (and retrained her older dogs to that command) because, IIRC, she felt that the term itself is much more definitive to the dog--a clear command that sounds like "stop." (Also it's a shorter command that doesn't give the dog extra words, =extra time, to stop.)

 

Right now I am trying to retrain both Phoebe and Lark to a stand. That means that every time I ask for a stand and they lie down I have to correct them (verbally) for it, even if a stop is all I really want (in this case, it means getting them *up* again and then asking for the stand).

 

If it were me and I didn't want any extra steps, I would step into him and repeat the command. You'll have to watch him carefully to make sure that you aren't putting too much pressure on, and it may be a fine line with a dog like Celt.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Sue,

 

Like Julie says, why not teach (and use) "stand" when you want Celt on his feet but stopped? Make sure that when you teach this you enforce the stand "still".

 

Mark

[Sue R]

That's funny what you are saying about "stop", Julie, as when I say "lie down", Celt usually stands and when I say "stop" (or "stand"), he usually lies down. Maybe I just need to be flexible with my vocabulary! I appreciate the advice, as always.

 

Mark, I should do that and hope that with Dan, I do things right so that he has a "down" and a "stand" or "stop". Thank you!

[juliepoudrier]

Sue,

It's been something of a joke that Twist often stands when I say "lie down," and lies down when I say "stand." It's most certainly the result of my inconsistent training as a novice, but I like to attribute it to Twist's perverse sense of humor. (And her lie down is also quite the dramatic act--throwing herself to the ground with a very clear "Hmmmph!")

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Another thought for Celt (and older, already trained dogs): are you using a whistle? I find that often, switching to a whistle from a verbal gives you a chance to kind of re-teach a down command. It gives you the opportunity to kind of start fresh as far as enforcing things.

 

As for Danny (or starting with a clean slate): I have found that if you get the dog to feeling its stock properly early on, the down (and the stand, for that matter) become *almost* not necessary *as the dog gains experience and maturity*. For instance, Riddle has a great feel for her stock (I didn't necessarily train it--I just got lucky), but, I basically never give her a lie down, unless we're doing setout and she gets to the spot I need her to be in to hold the sheep. But as she's working, in particular on cattle, she feels her stock well enough so that she self-regulates, if you know what I mean. When we get to a pen, say, she will stop herself on her feet to ease off some of the pressure to get them to go in, and then walk up when she sees it's time to do so. Tikkle is pretty much the same way. However, during training, and until your dog gets to that point where it reads stock well enough, you certainly do need the dog to stop when you tell it to, and not to cheat you at all. That's the only way you'll be able to set it up for gathers, and various other things, so it can learn. So, I agree with Julie, a bit of body language to enforce it when needed,

A

[Sue R]

Deb - I missed your helpful comments the first time through. Thank you for them.

 

Dan is funny in that he can be solid-gold in a response, or act like we are different planets. A walk can go one way, or the other, or sometimes a bit of both. I need to do my job better, more consistently, and fairly.

 

He is a character unlike Celt, Megan, or Bute (or even Skye). I think I will have to learn a lot to do a good job with him.

[RoseAmy]

Sue,

 

I went to a Bobby Dalziel clinic and he was real big on the dog hit the deck on a lie down. If the dog did not stop on first command and THE spot it was told or if it creaps forward he would have the handler not say another word but go to the dog (using a line if needed) grab the dog by the collar drag it back to the spot and thump it over the nose. Some dogs there after a time or two had the best downs I've ever seen. I've had other handlers tell me they tried it and it worked great. A few isaid t made things worse.

I tried it on my dog and she just became frantic when I said lie down.

[Sue R]

Anna - I missed your post, too, and thank you for it. I have worked with the whistle for the down but only half-heartedly. What I need to do is make a commitment to have it with me and use it, but I almost always forget it.

 

I understand from what I have been told by several trainers that a dog will stop/down most readily when on balance, and that that's a good place to start training that on stock, by making sure that you don't ask for it unless it is a position where the dog will feel comfortable doing it (on balance).

 

Roseamy - It is interesting that a particular method produces excellent results for some dogs and handlers, and is not productive for others. I think a lot of that is either temperment differences or differences in timing and application of the technique by the handler. And, not every technique will produce the desired result - one clinician is fond of saying that his approach is not the only one but that it works for him, and the approach that works for you is the approach that is right for you.

[juliepoudrier]

For instance, Riddle has a great feel for her stock (I didn't necessarily train it--I just got lucky), but, I basically never give her a lie down, unless we're doing setout and she gets to the spot I need her to be in to hold the sheep. But as she's working, in particular on cattle, she feels her stock well enough so that she self-regulates, if you know what I mean. When we get to a pen, say, she will stop herself on her feet to ease off some of the pressure to get them to go in, and then walk up when she sees it's time to do so.

I think this is why Twist's lie down is what it is (or isn't). I never had to tell her where to be or what to do as she always just knew what was needed (she must be Riddle's twin on sheep). Only later when I realized that I might want a lie down at a specific spot (e.g., for setting sheep, as you note) did I realize that my lie down/stop traing could have been a little more effective, although in general I can still just rely on her to do what she thinks is right (and she usually is right)....

 

J.

[Amelia]

Hello all,

I start teaching my pups a recall early on and I use a long line and a reward as necessary with each dog. Some need the motivation, some don't. But, I think it's also important to use a correction when you call them and they don't come. That's the only way they know that they are doing something wrong. So, I call the puppy and if he doesn't come to me, or at least look at me and stop in the beginning, I give him a little growl and go to him. If at some point, he stops, lies down or starts coming to me, I change my demeanor to happy and maybe give him a reward, but certainly a pat for compliance.

 

All that said, I find that with border collies at least, everything changes once they are mature enough to start on stock. If they've been raised to respect the hand and take direction, they will take a down and recall better once on stock because it means they get their sheep. Consistency is the key for me and I go to them each and every time I ask for a down and don't get it. That includes the times I get a down plus steps. Consistency speeds things along and pretty quick I have a great, reliable down. I'm raising a now 9 month old that I started on stock 30 days ago, and I'm still downing him before I put his food down at night. He has a great down on stock, but there's no harm in a little, gentle reinforcement.

 

Not saying it won't work, because I've never tried it, but I don't really see the point in using different words for a down on and off stock. If anything, fewer words works well for me. I just make sure that I get exactly what I'm asking for when I ask it. As for improving the stop on an older dog, I would say that absolute consistency would work better than anything. If you ask for a down and get a stand, go to the dog and get a down, If you need both a down and a stand on a dog, use a different word for each, but consistently enforce each one. I think it's very confusing for a dog to be told lie down and have it mean something different sometimes. I say it, and I mean it.

 

When I started Price, I did not know how to teach a good stop, so he didn't have one for the first year or so that I worked him. Once someone explained and I began to use consistency and intention with my dog, he developed a great down. Even though he still is a pushy dog, he will stop on a dime.

Cheers all,

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm planning to watch for those down-plus-five-steps-in's with this next pup. This is the only major thing at this point that's haunting me with the Tedlet. Argh. And I totally reinforced it by letting him get away with it, and continuing to do so. Now that I'm asking for a lot more precision, it can turn into a frustrating thing to undo the damage of those few steps - or just one, sometimes.

 

There's been a couple tips on fixing this. I do remind him periodically by going to him, but there are many times when doing so would mean we lose the sheep, and Ted knows this very well. By lose the sheep I mean literally they will bolt out into the road or the neighborhood - they don't stand still without being held and we move and graze them outside the fenced areas each day.

 

Hmm. Maybe this is an expert question as well.

[Debbie Meier]

Hi Becca, I've run into the same deal with tending here, Jake seemed to think that he needed to take an extra step now and then..ok, alot and do some freelancing on his own against my desires. I don't try to fix it out tending, I take it to a working area where I can step in and take him off his sheep without having the sheep totally leave/escape. I have found, that if they can get a little ways away when I do it that it makes a bigger impact on him, the "OMG I didn't stop, Deb had to make a big deal about it and know my sheep are gone, I better stop next time." It's not something I would do to a young pup, it would freak them out, but he knows that he can get them gathered back up, it's just going to be more work then if he had stopped solid in the first place. Once I get his stop solid then I make sure I keep it when we go out tending, the first indiscretions should take less to fix, a growl or a harsh "you lie down get out of that" something that would make him cringe, if I miss those first indisgretions then it's going to take more work on my part, easier to just go back to the pen, but even eaisier if I don't make the mistake and miss correcting him when it takes less. I think I still shake my head at myself more often then not "dang, I missed it again, when it first began" then I recite to myself over and over..."they offer us what we allow, they offer us what we allow..."

[Denise Wall]

Denise Wall uses the word "stop" (and retrained her older dogs to that command) because, IIRC, she felt that the term itself is much more definitive to the dog--a clear command that sounds like "stop." (Also it's a shorter command that doesn't give the dog extra words, =extra time, to stop.)

 

That's right Julie. I've had some pretty hard to handle dogs, especially when I first started running Open, and they would run all over me on the fetch not taking a "lie down" very well I finally decided I needed a new word. I chose "stop" for the reasons Julie stated above - phonetically it was more conducive to making a dog stop and it was shorter to get out thus decreasing the reaction time. I remember the first time I used it at Edgeworth years ago, which has a long fetch (~600 yards), part of it blind. I could hear handlers in the background saying, "What did she just say?!"

 

My system now is to start them with a "lie down," expecting their instincts may overwhelm them sometimes and they won't always take it like I'd like. As they become ready to run Open, I change it to a "stop" and expect them to stop every time, no cheating. After they stop, I allow them to use their own discretion about getting up and reacting to the sheep without me telling them unless I say "stay still." When I say "stay still," they at least know when I want them to override their instincts to react to the sheep. This system is especially useful at the shed for me. Sometimes, like at the pen, when the sheep are hard for me to read and I feel like the dog will read where exactly to stop or slow down better than me, I use "lie down" again which from their beginning training means to them they're allowed to use more of their own discretion on where exactly to stop or if they should.

 

I can't say they do it perfectly each and every time, but it's a consistent communication system I use from the beginning and they know what my intention is. I'm not that great of a handler. I need to tap into their natural instinct as much as possible. As long as they have a good work attitude this system works well for me. As an aside, I don't care whether they stop on their feet or hit their bellies. Some dogs naturally stop better than others. My young dog May made the transition from using "lie down" to "stop" (and it was a dead stop) in two times of me using it. I think she was responding to the natural phonetics of the word "stop."

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I just had to retrain our deaf dog Gus to a sign for stop. He's stone deaf, effectively, at working distances, so we had no chance to transition him using the verbal plus the visual cue. In fact, looking at some videos from last year, I've been a bit mortified to realize he couldn't hear worth a darn pretty much for the last 12 months, most likely.

 

Obviously Gus is pretty clever, and willing, to figure out what we want. Thankfully. therefore, when I made my signal for the first time for him to stop, it was at a time when a stop was pretty natural, and he went plop on the ground. This was something he had NOT been doing for us for a long time.

 

It was like he took a big sigh of relief at that point. He ate up the visual cues like candy and worked with a big smile on his face. He also went through some puppylike "testing" phases like running through stops and slashing flanks but I was ready for him. He's not a cheating, fast dog so my slow timing was not an issue.

 

It was kind of neat to see in a clear way how Gus went through the process of learning the cues by rote, then learning to communicate with them - looking to me for help instead of frantically rushing around at random hoping to get something right for once. It really showed me how important it is to have very consistent, clear cues and know what I mean by them. Possibly my new pup will benefit from it.