ultimatek9 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I rescued Ruckus 2 months ago. I have been working with him, trying to create drive. He now has some decent food drive and LOVES affection. But if I try to get him to play with anything or leave my side, he just stares into my eyes or throws himself down on the ground in front of me. He has had one herding lesson, and showed really good herding drive. He also started agility training two weeks ago and has become fairly comfortable with the small equipment and sending away for the target, but as soon as he gets it he flies back to me. I would like to get him interested in flyball also, but he acts like he is scared to touch any toys. It took me almost a month to get him to play with a tennis ball, and that is still limited to a secluded, quiet location. I started out by opening his mouth and placing the ball in it, then praising and petting him as long as he was holding it. When he dropped it, I say Uh Oh and start over again. Then I went to wiggling the ball around right next to his muzzle and encouraging him to grab it and hold on. Once he got comfortable with that I got him picking the ball up off of the ground. Now he will go about 30 feet away to get the ball, but any further and he comes running back to me. I am constantly praising him everytime he shows interest in a toy or playing, but it doesn't really seem to be making much of a difference. I would love to be able to play with him and train him more, but with no drive it is really difficult. He drives me crazy when he just sits there and stares at me. I can throw food on the ground in front him and he still just stares at me. I think he is broken. He will be 2 years old in July. Any suggestions on building his confidence, bringing him out of his shell, or finding his magic "drive" button would be great. Or is he just always going to be a super soft dog, with no really working ability. HELP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Was this the dog whose first family kept him in a crate so much that he was basically like a veal when he was given up? I'm not experienced with this sort of thing but I know I would still be expecting a dog like that to be simply adjusting to a new life with tons of new activity, training pressure, and stimulation, and bonding with me? Others would know, but isn't it possible as he gets more comfortable with you and his new life some of these "lack of drive" issues which may just be overstimulation issues, could resolve themselves? Maybe just set the bar with toys and everything else really low so he can succeed a lot. Also, one way I've gotten other dogs interested in toys is to play with them myself as if they are the best things in the world. Then, I offer to the dog. If they don't take it immediately, I resume playing by myself for awhile and then put the toy away until later. I'm sure other here with tons of experience will have even better suggestions! Good luck, good thoughts for you and this guy coming from me and Odin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenzehund Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 2 months is not a long time. I would suggest patience, and not putting so much pressure on him. I imagine others can offer some more "practical" ideas. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm not sure that patience is one of your virtues , but I think he just needs more time. Border Collies are much more sensitive than your other breeds, in general, and then when you take into consideration his background...you know what I mean? He has even more to overcome. I think he was starved for attention when you got him, and that's why he's velcro and staring into your eyes constantly. Soooo, I would keep up with what you're doing, training-wise, but keep your expectations low right now and see how he comes around with time. Baby steps, man. I know two months might feel like a long time to you, but it's really not. Give Jaeger a kiss from me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimatek9 Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Was this the dog whose first family kept him in a crate so much that he was basically like a veal when he was given up? Yes, that would be my boy. Maybe just set the bar with toys and everything else really low so he can succeed a lot. Also, one way I've gotten other dogs interested in toys is to play with them myself as if they are the best things in the world. Then, I offer to the dog. If they don't take it immediately, I resume playing by myself for awhile and then put the toy away until later. I have tried this, which drives all of my other dogs insane. But Ruckus seems quite content just staring at me and watching me play. When I do offer it to him, he never brakes his stare/eye contact and doesn't even acknowledge the toy. I guess I am just so used to my terriers, which have drive out the wazzu. I don't plan on giving up on him, but he is my first Border Collie. I realized he would be different than my other dogs, but I figured I would ask for BC peoples opinions before I get too frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimatek9 Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm not sure that patience is one of your virtues , but I think he just needs more time. Border Collies are much more sensitive than your other breeds, in general, and then when you take into consideration his background...you know what I mean? He has even more to overcome. I think he was starved for attention when you got him, and that's why he's velcro and staring into your eyes constantly. Soooo, I would keep up with what you're doing, training-wise, but keep your expectations low right now and see how he comes around with time. Baby steps, man. I know two months might feel like a long time to you, but it's really not. Give Jaeger a kiss from me! SOOOO, what you are saying is... I can send Ruckus to live with you and you will fix him for me. I'm sure just being around perfect, little Alex will have to have a positive effect on him. BTW, Today is Jaeger's 3rd birthday. I forgot until I got to work. I am a bad mommy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I can't speak for herding or flyball, but my current Agility dog started with less than zero drive and it was a long road to build drive in her. She is not toy motivated, so I had to do it all with food. The key to build her drive for Agility was to reward, reward, reward, and keep my goals tiny. We would spend time with one jump at a low height, for instance, and I would reward every single jump she did. I built distance VERY gradually only after she was fluent with me starting closeby. I start rewarding from the hand, and I find this isn't a bad thing. It conditions the dog to orient to me. Later I switch to targets and I have found that works well. If you can find a treat that your dog really, really, really wants, that is helpful. I would try chicken, roast beef, etc. I will pass on to you the advice my instructor gave me in one of Maddie's first Agility lessons, "Never, ever correct this dog - reward her no matter what". There came a time later when reward would be withheld for incorrect performance, but that came waaaaaaaaaay down the road. She got an A for effort - and a treat - every time she even attempted something in the first year or so of her training. It was my job to set her up for success (using targets, clear signals, props, etc) and in the beginning, an attempt was success. It paid off in the long run. She can really hit the pike now when she wants to. And yes, she can run whole courses without so much as a crumb of reward. Once the value of the reward transferred to each individual piece of equipment AND to running sequences, I was able to run her without it. I hope that helps. I wish you the best! Take it slow, reward a lot, and enjoy your dog for who he is. The soft ones have so much to offer us when we start to appreciate them for who they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Another thing - do you use the clicker with your boy at all? That can be extremely helpful for a soft dog for building confidence, drive, and a sense of enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 SOOOO, what you are saying is...I can send Ruckus to live with you and you will fix him for me. I'm sure just being around perfect, little Alex will have to have a positive effect on him. Yes, exactly. But once I fix him, I'm not giving him back! BTW, Today is Jaeger's 3rd birthday. I forgot until I got to work. I am a bad mommy. Bad, bad mommy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm going to add my vote for patience and time. Sounds like you have a special needs guy there. No, it does not mean you need to give up on him learning a sport but it does mean you need to let him go at his pace. Even too much "encouragement" can be stressful for insecure or shy dogs. It is very important not to impose much in the way of goals or timetables on this type of dog. At least keep goals and timetables flexible. And Kristine's instructor is absolutely right about never correcting low drive dogs when doing sports with them. Job One is making it fun -- thereby increasing the inherent reward of doing the activity, building confidence and increasing drive. My favorite dog ever had pretty good drive for agility but seriously lacked confidence. I learned so much about patience and how much sweeter the rewards are after hard work and struggles. Our bond was incredibly close and of the four dogs I've trained in agility, he had by far the best "work ethic" and actually seemed to take pride in his performance. He was a partner in the truest sense. But our success did not come easily and it did not come quickly. Two months for any rescue dog is a very short time span. For a dog who has gone through what your boy has, it is a snap of the fingers. Give him time, affection, structure, training, patience and fun. Enjoy the journey rather than focusing on the destination. My special needs dog has been gone for almost 5 years. It's not all the ribbons and titles I miss. It isn't even all the fun we had training and competing. It's the special bond we developed on our adventures together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Girl Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I have terriers and bc's as well. I love both of the personalities and drive that these breeds give to you. One of my bc's is a rescue who came with some trust and confidence issues so I know where your at, all though my boy's issues were not as severe. Definitely give your boy more time to adjust. He's got to relax first and then it will all come. It doesn't sound like this guy has had a good life thus far, show him your willing to wait a little and you'll begin to see his world open up a little at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobcmom Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I would suggest the series of books by Terri Arnold, Stepping up to Success. These are obedience books training, books but will be useful what ever activity you try. Book One will have some good information and deals with basic obedience, building the relationship, keeping good focus, and creating a foundation. There are a lot of specific steps. It may take a while to work through the exercises but take the time. This will help build the relationship and communication between you and your dog. Terri's steps help keep my dogs motivated and happy to work with me. (note: ...there seem to be different definitions for the term "work"). If the cost of the book is an issue try libraries and interlibrary loan. The libraries are another great resource. mobcmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobcmom Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 This thread seems to have some of the answers for which you are looking. "Finding a performance dog" mobcmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkshipley Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 quote]I would love to be able to play with him and train him more, but with no drive it is really difficult. He drives me crazy when he just sits there and stares at me. I can throw food on the ground in front him and he still just stares at me. I think he is broken. He will be 2 years old in July. Any suggestions on building his confidence, bringing him out of his shell, or finding his magic "drive" button would be great. Or is he just always going to be a super soft dog, with no really working ability. HELP![/b] I just posted a clicker method under the topic getting a dog for performance that I think will work really well in building your boy's confidence and allowing him to learn to be more operant without pressure. Really yummy treats are very important and consistent, patient work using the method is vital. You can't rush it and you have to work on it daily, but I do think you'll see a dog eventually who is willing to offer more behavior. If this dog was not trained at all and not given human interaction and/or asked to focus on or perform a task for a person then he most likely has not a clue how to do so. I think it is pretty impressive that you have him going 30 feet to chase a ball in just two months. Keep up the herding also. It will build his confidence and help to build a working relationship between the two of you. Best, Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'll add a vote for continuing with the stockdog training as it really can be a great confidence builder. And don't forget that most border collies are *very sensitive* to their human's emotions, so if he senses your frustration with him, it will only serve to set him back further or slow down what progress you are making. Don't compare him to your other dogs or even your initial expectations. It might help to keep a training journal so you can go back and see just how far he's come. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 My young BC is also a bit like this. Very frustrating as my other dogs have the drive to work with me in spades. The lying down and looking tragic was irritating as was the lack of interest in toys and the more frustrated I became the worse she became. So I found the best thing was to persevere and always be positive. Reward for everything. I play racing games to her dinner bowl which she now enjoys and is usefull training for the lead outs. She also slowly came to love her ball and she will tug enthusiasitically but not around agility equipment. I did a bit of very positive obedience training with her where staring into the eyes is a good thing and I found for some reason this really stregthened the bond. She seemed to love doing the heeling routines. I used the clicker a lot and clicked her around agility equipment with her ball as a reward for any effort. She was soon taking jumps and rushing over to the weaves independently and experimenting of her own accord. I never utter any noise to her that is other than positive. I also slowly started to initiate games with her without toys. She likes it when we do high fives of I make whispering noises to her, for some reason she gets excited and jumps all over me when I do this and I pat the ground with my hands and she pounces on me. It has taken a good 18 months for all this to occur but she is a much more confident dog and does like to please. She responds to lots of hugs and if I praise her she glows. They teach you a lot these soft dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimatek9 Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Since I posted, Ruckus is really coming along well. Tonight at flyball practice, he was sending over all four jumps, hitting the box (almost a 4 footed turn), grabbing the ball, and coming back. Plus he is starting to pick up some speed too. I will try and have my husband video tape him next week. He seems to really be enjoying himself finally. Here is a new picture that I took of him yesterday morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 He's gorgeous! Congrats on the progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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