Welsh Sheepdogs - Welsh border collies?

[JohnLloydJones]

Although i am sure certain parts of Wales i.e., Snowdonia National Park may be a little more like Scotland, the vast majority of Wales is a little less hilly than Scotland, and i believe you could possibly see the sheep and dogs much easier.

 

The Cambrian mountains stretch through N. Wales and into Scotland and have the very distinctive strata that juts out (what are mountains today, were valleys, long, long back). You can see this also, in some places, in S.Wales. Sheep were (and still are) grazed in vast common areas -- e.g. the Brecon Beacons, close to where I grew up -- in summer ad brought down to low land pasture in the winter. Anyone who has wandered there will know that these are not like the rolling English hills.

[juliepoudrier]

So it sounds as if we're all in agreement that the hills of Scotland and the hills of Wales would require a dog to work out of sight and possibly out of hearing of its shepherd?

 

J.

[JohnLloydJones]

So it sounds as if we're all in agreement that the hills of Scotland and the hills of Wales would require a dog to work out of sight and possibly out of hearing of its shepherd?

 

I think that would be the case for many parts of Wales. [My only trip to Scotland was to Aberdeen and I never got to see anything beyond the city.]

[juliepoudrier]

Well the point is that if Scotland and Wales both have similar terrain with respect to working dogs, then it doesn't make sense to say that the Welsh collie was developed to work terrain out of sight of its master because a border collie isn't suitable for such work when in fact the border collie (or its progenitor type dog) was apparently developed to do the exact same type of work in the hills of Scotland.

 

J.

[BorderCollieSam]

The Cambrian mountains stretch through N. Wales and into Scotland and have the very distinctive strata that juts out (what are mountains today, were valleys, long, long back). You can see this also, in some places, in S.Wales. Sheep were (and still are) grazed in vast common areas -- e.g. the Brecon Beacons, close to where I grew up -- in summer ad brought down to low land pasture in the winter. Anyone who has wandered there will know that these are not like the rolling English hills.

 

English hills are nothing compared to the hills of Scotland and i suppose Wales, but as i say from what i've seen of Wales, the hills are pretty small comparing the two.

 

My director lives in Surrey and he says he needs his 4x4 to get up the hills

 

I had to laugh, as you say the hills in England (well the South at least) are nothing compared to the hills of Scotland. However, the Lake District National Park/Cumbria are still in England and i certainly wouldn't compare them to the English Hills......

[BorderCollieSam]

So it sounds as if we're all in agreement that the hills of Scotland and the hills of Wales would require a dog to work out of sight and possibly out of hearing of its shepherd?

 

J.

 

Well, yes and no, Scotland and Cumbria definetely a yes, as i've been up many hills in these areas, however from what i've seen of Wales (i'm no expert on Wales as only been there a few times and haven't walked any of the hills), the hills seem to be in the form of valleys, are a lot smaller in comparison, they have a lot of houses set into the hills. However as i've said, and as the other member above said, there are parts of Wales that have some larger hills, and i now for sure that Snowdonia is a very hilly terrain.

 

However, Scotland for example, the mountains and hills of Scotland are so vast, i've been to the summit of Ben Nevis and they have sheep grazing pretty much all the way to the summit.

 

The Scottish shepherd i'm sure would have no intention of walking up there (approximately 4 hours walk up, and about 3-3.5 hrs down) to give his dog commands, i'm sure he would need a dog to work on its own at that type of altitude, so instead of the Welsh Sheepdog needing to work on its own, i would say it would have been Scotland that would have needed a dog of this ability......

[JohnLloydJones]

Well the point is that if Scotland and Wales both have similar terrain with respect to working dogs, then it doesn't make sense to say that the Welsh collie was developed to work terrain out of sight of its master because a border collie isn't suitable for such work when in fact the border collie (or its progenitor type dog) was apparently developed to do the exact same type of work in the hills of Scotland.

 

Old Hemp was from Northumbria -- bordering Scotland, but still England. The type of dog most suitable for work would depend on many factors; geography, certainly, but also the type of farming done and the scale and style of operation. As far as I know, the Welsh Sheepdog was not specifically "developed to work terrain out of sight of its master". I think your previous post suggested that they were part of the pool out of which the border collie was developed; quite likely that was the case.

[BorderCollieSam]

Old Hemp was from Northumbria -- bordering Scotland, but still England. The type of dog most suitable for work would depend on many factors; geography, certainly, but also the type of farming done and the scale and style of operation. As far as I know, the Welsh Sheepdog was not specifically "developed to work terrain out of sight of its master". I think your previous post suggested that they were part of the pool out of which the border collie was developed; quite likely that was the case.

 

Northumbria/Cumbria, although bordering Scotland and still in England, is more like the Scottish terrain than the English terrain, by the time you get South of the Lake District the terrain pretty much flattens out, and thats pretty much how it stays all of the way down to the South Coast apart from the odd low rise hill scattered here and there.....for example Surrey.

 

Also of interest, an area referred to as the 'Borders', my family live in a little village called Newtown St. Boswells, just over the border North of Jedburgh, the terrain around that area is very flat but they use BC's in that area....

[JohnLloydJones]

Northumbria/Cumbria, although bordering Scotland and still in England, is more like the Scottish terrain than the English terrain, by the time you get South of the Lake District the terrain pretty much flattens out, and thats pretty much how it stays all of the way down to the South Coast apart from the odd low rise hill scattered here and there.....for example Surrey.

 

The Scots refer to the lowlands and the highlands, so Scottish terrain isn't all the same. Yes, the Northumbrian landscape is quite unlike South England -- and indeed most of South England.

[bc4pack]

So... Welsh Shepherds are kinda like English Shepherds?

[mjk05]

Kelpies are very similar to Border Collies. Overall from the few I"ve seen I'd say they are less biddable. I have heard Border Collies are better at close work also

It varies tremendously depending on the lines. Just like there are more and less biddable and independent border collies, same goes for kelpies. Many kelpies do have seem to have a combination of a fairly soft temperament and a full-on attitude to work, which can make them easily soured or turned "sulky", and I think that's what gives them the "independent" label.

 

-some of his Border Collies run on on the backs of sheep to encourage forward movement of a large flock

Backing is a fairly easily taught skill for many dogs. Some (especially kelpies) can be really natural backing dogs, but most can be taught. One of the most natural backing dogs we have is a UK-bred border collie, and the one dog who won't back at all, ever, is a kelpie (from top paddock lines- wide working, big casting, not much push).

 

I actually think modern kelpies are increasingly being bred as "close work" specialists, as many people specialise in yard dog breeding and don't worry much about paddock ability. They're probably still "independent" workers though, because the whole point of a yard dog is that they can fill races and empty yards without needing to be asked, while the people get on with other things. They need to have heaps of push in tight work, without any bite, which seems to be one difference with many border collies.

 

My take on the "independent breed" stuff is that often it's used as an excuse for dogs that aren't very well trained for whatever reason. I do see a difference between dogs that are used extensively for farm work and those that are just trial dogs, because in trials dogs are expected to be obedient and open to a high amount of input from their handler, while independent, out of sight sort of work is going to be more valued in large scale farm work. That's obviously going to have an influence on breeding, but training has a lot to do with it too, regardless of breed.

[Journey]

My take on the "independent breed" stuff is that often it's used as an excuse for dogs that aren't very well trained for whatever reason.

 

Yes! So basically the other breeds that can't keep up with the Border Collie, find fault somewhere in the breed and try to design another - imitations that's what they are