Finding Balance - In training that is

[OurBoys]

Thank you, Denise, I always appreciate what you contribute.

 

We have had several excellent, thoughtful topics posted lately that all deserve multiple reads by folks like myself who really need to take some time to get our minds around the matter discussed.

My thoughts exactly Sue.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Thanks for all the handlers who contributed to this topic. It's something I struggled with for a long time even trying to wrap my head around the concept. So many times I was almost reduced to tears trying to reconcile someone telling me, "Why did you let your dog DO that?" and two seconds later, "Let your dog WORK!" Argghh!

 

I really appreciate what Denise said.

 

We've all been novices and heard the things we needed to do that we couldn't do yet. We did the best we could with what we had at the time.

 

Actually, I got a little lump in my throat. It's nice to know handlers of her caliber remember and understand what it's like. I get all stupid when I make bonehead mistakes. I want to exclaim, "I really know better - I just don't know how yet - there's not enough tools in my toolbox yet." But of course that's silly - it's not about me or how much I know or don't know. I need to get a move on and do the time, and find those tools and learn how to use them.

[Lana]

I think some of the key is pushing a dog enough to challenge them to improve, without putting them in over their heads, and hurting their confidence. Taking a dog to real work as soon as you have some control, can be the best way to train, but if the work is too severe it can do more harm.

 

A "mechanical"dog may do well at many trials, but when the stock is un broke, a dog that has been allowed to make decisions can save the day. If you are doing a job you can't always be there to help the dog.

 

Where i struggle is that different dogs need different approaches in respect to control. We get used to our trained dogs and start taking our young dog to do work, or to start trialing, and a whole new relationship has to develop and grow. Trust has to be earned on both ends of the partnership.

 

Lana

[juliepoudrier]

Where i struggle is that different dogs need different approaches in respect to control. We get used to our trained dogs and start taking our young dog to do work, or to start trialing, and a whole new relationship has to develop and grown. Trust has to be earned on both ends of the partnership.

 

Lana

Excellent point Lana, and something I'm learning to deal with right now--learning to work with and develop that mutual trust with the youngsters, who are so different from each other, as well as from my trained dogs. I've been taking the youngsters to do the chores that would be a snap with the trained dogs and have to remind myself of the virtue of patience. I can put them in the exact same situations and have three different training issues arise (from three very closely related dogs). I have to remind myself that if nothing else, it will stretch and improve me as a trainer (well, if it doesn't kill me first).

 

J.

[RoseAmy]

So many great thoughts. Lana I couldn't agree with you more about building a relationship with our young dogs. An adventure I'm embarking on now. I think the balance is about building that respect and trust that becomes a true working relationship with your dog. Juggling the "you need to listen to me" with the you need to feel the sheep and think is truly an art.

 

Yes as Julie says it takes twice as long to get things done with jr. in tow. The upside is you gain a new appreciation for your older dogs and realize just how far the two of you have come together.

 

With each dog you learn something new and become a better handler.

[Lenajo]

Deleted post.

 

Never mind. Really. I'm exhausted from 4 solid days of working dogs in 2 states and obviously befuddled.

[bcnewe2]

I paid a lot of money to ask a world class handler this question; "How do I drive a straight line?" He watched me drive my dog 30 feet and said 4 words that fixed the problem immediately and forever; "shorten your there whistle." I had been sure he would show me how to correct the dog.

 

Been there done that. Ours was why my dog wouldn't take my stop whistel. The guy I was paying listened to my whistles and asked what the dif between the stop and the there was...if he couldn't understand the difference, how could the dog?

Damn if the next stop whistle was longer and more defined and he's been stopping ever since. It's the little things that mean so much!

 

I thought the answer was worth every penny, I was expecting to here some big lecture about my dog. Turns out it's me! Guess I've been the issue the whole time!

My goal these days is to only tell the dog when I think he's wrong, that way I keep my mouth shut a whole lot more! I haven't a chance to read the post that this stemmed from but I've found this one to be a wealth of information.

 

The KISS method works really well for me as I am a slow learner at times and I like to keep it simple. The simplicity of what we love to do is just this. We want to nourish and improve on what we started with which means that we have a goal of having a dog that will

#1 and I emphasize this strongly; The dog must do as he is told by the handler ALL THE TIME!!!

#2. We must leave the dog to do what he is bred to do except when he needs help or direction.

#3. Don't confuse obedience and being a good listener for mechanical. I tell most or all of my students to be in control but not controlling.

#4. Train your dog to work, not to trial.

#5. Challenge your dog at all times and keep your training periods interesting to both you and the dog. In other words, mix it up.

#6. Praise your dog for work well done in WHATEVER FORM WORKS FOR HIM/HER! I say this because there are so many different types of dogs out there that react well to many different forms of praise that you need to figure out what form of praise you use.

#7. Learn to read sheep so you can help the dog when he needs it and not get in his way when he doesn't need it.

#8. Your goal should be to have a dog is able to take a command at any place at any time and you need to know that you have the confidence in your dog to do that. That is what you need to aim for.

 

I think this is a great list. I should try to refresh myself with it everytime I'm walking out to sheep.

[abcollie]

A friend (at least I think she's a friend :~) asked me to "jump in" here.

 

I have a couple of young dogs I'm training right now that might help give some ideas of the mechanical vs natural method.

 

I'm just starting driving with both of them and all I want them to do is take sheep and go ... without flanking around or trying to bring them back. NO directions ... just a there, there.

 

The one has a tendency to flank on his "away side" as a "default". I'm trying to help him understand that's not what I want with my body language and encouragement. Last week he was getting the idea and actually driving not just following. He was almost straight in front of me (a little to my right) when a ewe on our left side started drifting to her left (that would be ALL our lefts :~) when he flanked out (in front of me) as nice as can be and "tucked her in" and kept driving. I LOVED it ... made my day.

 

BUT if he had flanked like my other dog he would have NOT flanked out but would have "sliced in" toward her trying to "tuck" . Now they BOTH are getting the "concept" of tucking the one in - BUT the way they go about it is totally different. If I just stood there and let my 2nd dog be "natural" ... it might have been natural but it would have been WRONG.

 

So, when he tries to "tuck" ... I have to lie him down and move over (to my right) to push him out on that left flank so he doesn't push forward while he's flanking sideways. Letting him be wrong (natural) wouldn't have helped him or the sheep. They would have "shot sideways" and taken off ... frustrating him ... that he tried to fix something (a ewe going off line) but ended up making a bigger mess. So, with my guidance ... he accomplished both.

 

Hope this makes sense as everyone knows training dogs "on paper" is not easy!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I totally get this example as I was working with this with my young dog. I was letting him drift too close while driving and he'd cut in slightly, not feeling the sheep particularly on one side, if I asked him to tuck in troublemakers. I'd have to watch him and if I'd let him get too close, or if he needed to flank in a difficult place, I had to learn to help him with some handling.

 

Once Ted got comfortable with what I was asking him to do, he relaxed and started handling many of these moves on his own. A very short time ago, I would have continued to handle him without allowing him to develop that feel on his own. I'm a control freak - give me a hammer and every problem looks like a nail.

 

Thankfully, Ted's taught me to experiment with relaxing on a control after working it together a couple times. He teaches me to use a tool, then he teaches me to STOP using the tool. And also, conversely, to be ready to bring it out when needed - to be alert for signs that it's needed - or something else. I have to continue to watch for signs that Ted needs those little helps on a flank while driving. Now, I'm very guilty of falling into daydreams while working, but I'm trying to do better.

[abcollie]

Thankfully, Ted's taught me to experiment with relaxing on a control after working it together a couple times. He teaches me to use a tool, then he teaches me to STOP using the tool.

 

I "see" we are "up and running again :~)

 

I agree - It's a razor thin line sometimes between "natural" and "handling".

 

One of my first dogs had a perfect pear shaped outrun. I use to just stand in amazement and watch. Until the day he didn't see the sheep (of course at a trial) when it dawned on me I had NEVER directed him on his outrun ... and COULDN'T. I learned my lesson "then and there" - even if their outrun (or anything else) is "perfect" there will come a time when it isn't :~) So, I make sure I can correct them at any stage of the work even if they are right.

 

I may only do it every 10th time or so ... BUT I do it ... just to make sure I can (also making sure they understand I'm guiding them NOT punishing them).

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I "see" we are "up and running again :~)

 

I agree - It's a razor thin line sometimes between "natural" and "handling".

 

One of my first dogs had a perfect pear shaped outrun. I use to just stand in amazement and watch. Until the day he didn't see the sheep (of course at a trial) when it dawned on me I had NEVER directed him on his outrun ... and COULDN'T. I learned my lesson "then and there" - even if their outrun (or anything else) is "perfect" there will come a time when it isn't :~) So, I make sure I can correct them at any stage of the work even if they are right.

 

I may only do it every 10th time or so ... BUT I do it ... just to make sure I can (also making sure they understand I'm guiding them NOT punishing them).

My sentiments exactly Candy. And how are you doing in sunny southern CA? Looks like you are back in the dog world big time. Congrats on Zamora. Wish I had been there but, unfortunately, I was getting a new hip the first day of Zamora. First time I missed it since it started again and I sure didn't want to. New hip is working fine and hope to be back training very soon. Bob Stephens

[abcollie]

My sentiments exactly Candy. And how are you doing in sunny southern CA? Looks like you are back in the dog world big time. Congrats on Zamora. Wish I had been there but, unfortunately, I was getting a new hip the first day of Zamora. First time I missed it since it started again and I sure didn't want to. New hip is working fine and hope to be back training very soon. Bob Stephens

 

Hey you :~)

 

Glad to hear you are doing well ... I heard you were getting "brand new shiny hips" :@). You will be back at it "full tilt" soon I hope.

 

I'm trialing "some" but not like I use to. The weather at Zamora was very "Zamora" (not like last year which was perfect ;~).

 

It's HOT down here and the foxtails are terrible. I'm having my field disced (a friend and I were having a debate on HOW do you spell that?) - so I'm stuck not working dogs for a couple of days (and bored :~).

 

Hope to see ya "up and running" soon.

 

Take Care,

[Debbie Meier]

A friend (at least I think she's a friend :~) asked me to "jump in" here.

 

I have a couple of young dogs I'm training right now that might help give some ideas of the mechanical vs natural method.

 

I'm just starting driving with both of them and all I want them to do is take sheep and go ... without flanking around or trying to bring them back. NO directions ... just a there, there.

 

The one has a tendency to flank on his "away side" as a "default". I'm trying to help him understand that's not what I want with my body language and encouragement. Last week he was getting the idea and actually driving not just following. He was almost straight in front of me (a little to my right) when a ewe on our left side started drifting to her left (that would be ALL our lefts :~) when he flanked out (in front of me) as nice as can be and "tucked her in" and kept driving. I LOVED it ... made my day.

 

BUT if he had flanked like my other dog he would have NOT flanked out but would have "sliced in" toward her trying to "tuck" . Now they BOTH are getting the "concept" of tucking the one in - BUT the way they go about it is totally different. If I just stood there and let my 2nd dog be "natural" ... it might have been natural but it would have been WRONG.

 

So, when he tries to "tuck" ... I have to lie him down and move over (to my right) to push him out on that left flank so he doesn't push forward while he's flanking sideways. Letting him be wrong (natural) wouldn't have helped him or the sheep. They would have "shot sideways" and taken off ... frustrating him ... that he tried to fix something (a ewe going off line) but ended up making a bigger mess. So, with my guidance ... he accomplished both.

 

Hope this makes sense as everyone knows training dogs "on paper" is not easy!

 

Ding Ding Ding....NASA we have a problem.... When I was out grazing the sheep I suddenly realized that when my dog missed something straying out I would give him a flank command and allowed him to flank differently then when I wanted him to flank around to a new drive point. No wonder he was not always giving me what I expected, he would give me the flank he thought I wanted based on the amount of pressure he was applying to the sheep. If I needed to adjust his line and gave him a flank he would just try to tuck them holding the same line as opposed to a nice square flank allowing me to adjust the line, but when I would stop him first he would give me a nice square flank. This tuck on the flank was annoying when I wanted to reset the line because he would float back to hold that old line. Went back to helping him to take the inititive to tuck them in on his own by saying his name with a little hiss hiss and if he missed it then flank him out and around to create a new drive line. My thought is that I'm making it clear that when I flank you you need to be ready to set a new line, I'm not helping you to keep that old line. BTW, my hiss hiss is not specific to any command, it's an accelleration of what ever command I gave him.

 

After I made that adjustment he would watch the entire group (40 sheep) from further back and look for ones that were starting to stray and just float out to the side tucking them back in. I think it was an improvement, I guess we will see where it leads.

 

Deb

[abcollie]

Ding Ding Ding....NASA we have a problem .... My thought is that I'm making it clear that when I flank you you need to be ready to set a new line, I'm not helping you to keep that old line. BTW, my hiss hiss is not specific to any command, it's an accelleration of what ever command I gave him.

 

Deb

 

On my trained dogs (or the ones that are ready for more advanced training ) ... I give a firmer 1/4 flank (whistle or word) with a there on the end ... if I want them to hold the line AND push on. If I give a softer ... longer (more than a 1/4 but less than a 1/2) then I want a wider flank but still hold the same line.

 

If I want to change the direction of the line then I give a 1/2 flank (with the first and second part of my flank whistle) and I give it more drawn out. So the dog flanks wide enough that he stops pushing (doesn't loose contact but stops pushing forward while he is flanking). You have to be careful of that on range ewes ... if you go to far (depending on dog/sheep) you can catch their eye and start a fight if the dog flanks to much sideways.

 

The key is communicating to the dog what you want when you give each whistle (and being consistent each and every time).

[hsnrs]

We are total newbies and without a trainer at present. On advice from people here I'm trying to let my dog work without any commands from me. He is doing well so far and only splits and grips on occasion. Today we both worked with the sheep in two sessions and the second one was decidedly better. He was even doing some driving and not going to gather as much. Sometimes our sessions are a whirl for me and hard to remember or catch exactly what is happening as it is so fast. What worked for us was stopping and taking a breather in between fetching and short drives. The new lambs are gradually learning that the best place to be is with me. More work tomorrow; this is so much fun! Thanks to DH for building my new round pen. Some day we'll move to the open spaces with my boy. These are confidence issues for me to try sometime in the future. This is such a great topic; hope to follow more of the great suggestions. Keep them coming everyone. Sometimes I do get them to actually stick in my brain. This is such a great place to be. Narita