Colton's_Mom Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 I know Colton is no Border Collie but this is one of the best places for me to turn until I can get a hold of his trainer. For those of you who don't know I got Colton as a one year old abused/neglected/starved rescue. He has a lot of problems because of his rough start. Fear aggression towards people, towards dogs, and he is mouthy. I have been working with him so, so, so hard. I house trained him, taught him not to destructively chew, took him to basic obedience and tried to keep him socialized (he ended up getting attacked which spiraled into his aggression). Since moving to a new state I signed him up for an intermediate obedience class with a good trainer. He's been doing very well and at our last class (I) made strides in my confidence in handling him. I signed up for a beginner agility class because the trainer encouraged it and said it would help our bond. I took him there today and he did well for the most part. When people are praising their dogs, excitedly, he focuses in and gets all tense. He immediatly wants to go after the other dog/be in the middle of it. He wants to chase dogs who are coming out of tunnels/shooting stars. I watched his body language and kept him close/as focused as I could. Unfortunately he went after another dog. There's only a 5lb difference inbetween us (I'm 5 lbs heavier) so he literally jerked me around (did not have his head halti on because it was not recommended due to it could get snagged) and went after the other dog. He didn't go after her to kill her (she was not wounded) but it was almost like he was so hyped up that he decided to jump on her because he didn't know what to do. I just feel so bummed out because I've been working with him and putting my all into getting him to be a well behaved dog. I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel it's been a struggle. Any suggestions? His next class is Saturday and I want to be able to feel comfortable with him I am definantly willing to throw my all into this because I just feel I'm so far down the hole I should do everything I can to get out. (*side note I will NOT be getting a puppy until everything is good with him. I have a tendancy to blow things out of proportion he's a 180 from what he was when I got him a year ago) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Control Unleashed. It is a program custom made for dogs like Colton. My suggestion is to get the book, read it, and try the exercises - particularly the mat work and the Look at That Game. Worked like a charm for my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 I am going to get that book shipped express Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'll second Control Unleashed. Maybe even look around and see if anyone is doing a CU class in your area. But do get the book I haven't quite figured out how to make the "look at me" game work with Kipp, but I've done a variation of the mat game that has been very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I haven't quite figured out how to make the "look at me" game work with Kipp, but I've done a variation of the mat game that has been very helpful. I always suggest that students whose dogs struggle with learning Look at That, work on it at home with the dog looking out a window or storm door. I start with the game uncued. I simply wait for the dog to look out the window, and click, and then reward with something high value (at first). Once the dog gets the idea and starts to offer the behavior of looking out (always click when the dog looks away at something else - that's key) and then back for the reward after the click, I add the cue. Once the dog can do it in that situation on cue, the game can go out and about. When first taking it out and about, a nice distinct clicker and high value treats are a must. Once the dog can play in highly distracting situations, the value of the rewards can be lowered and a marker word can replace the click. And, remember - always work the dog under threshold. That's also key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I always suggest that students whose dogs struggle with learning Look at That, work on it at home with the dog looking out a window or storm door. I start with the game uncued. I simply wait for the dog to look out the window, and click, and then reward with something high value (at first). Once the dog gets the idea and starts to offer the behavior of looking out (always click when the dog looks away at something else - that's key) and then back for the reward after the click, I add the cue. Once the dog can do it in that situation, the game can go out and about. When first taking it out and about, a nice distinct clicker and high value treats are a must. Once the dog can play in highly distracting situations, the value of the rewards can be lowered and a marker word can replace the click. I'll have to give it a try again. Kipp is getting much better around other dogs, but he's not really at ease yet so I've still got a bit of work to do with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I just ordered the book, hopefully it'll be the best spent $40 in my life (I got 3 day shipping because I need it before his next agility class) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelseyF Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 That five pound difference is tough! Is it possible to have a crate in the area during class until you can get him under control? At my agility classes, dogs always go in crates when they are not working. This allows them a brain break and prevents them from self-reinforcing by running over to other dogs or looking for dropped treats. Also, I think you should be able to use a head halter. In my opinion, the chances of it getting snagged are very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I gave up on the "look at ME" game - I'm NEVER going to be as interesting as whatever else the dog is looking at - that's moving. I did refine my "look at THAT" game - it works! Dog gets rewarded (in my case) for sitting quietly (though tense - LOL!) and watching whatever is so interesting. Watch, get a treat; watch, get a treat; even now, after doing this for a long time, sometimes - but only sometimes - will I get a "look at me" - but I don't care. No pulling, no screaming - that's good enough for me! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I gave up on the "look at ME" game - I'm NEVER going to be as interesting as whatever else the dog is looking at - that's moving. I did refine my "look at THAT" game - it works! I gathered that by "look at me", Maralynn meant "Look at That" since we were talking CU. "Look at me" is definitely out the door around here, although it did serve as a good management tool with Speedy for years before the CU program came out and I learned about Look at That. The reorienting part of Look at That is significantly different from "look at me", but how differs exactly is tough to explain. It's easiest to give an example of the end result. When Dean and I are at an Agility trial and we have to go into the ring and set up at the line as the dog ahead of us is still running, he sees the dog running as we enter and set up, and that is a clear cue to him that he and I are going to do something together. Even when he is looking at the dog running, his mental focus moves by default to us as a team. He turns to look at me with a look of anticipation and interest - not because I'm more interesting than the dog running, but because he understands that the dog running (which he has seen and taken in mentally) has nothing to do with us and that it is time to get ready to do our thing. It's no small miracle considering how motion triggered he was when we first started! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I gathered that by "look at me", Maralynn meant "Look at That" since we were talking CU. Duh... Christine is correct, I meant to say "look at that". I totally agree that the "look at me" is very stressful on everyone involved and next to impossible to use with a nervous/reactive dog in a group setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 "Look at me" is definitely out the door around here, although it did serve as a good management tool with Speedy for years before the CU program came out and I learned about Look at That. The reorienting part of Look at That is significantly different from "look at me", but how differs exactly is tough to explain. I've messed around with a very loose variation of "look at THAT", but was taught "look at ME" in our puppy class and have used it for refocusing stuff ever since. However, I notice it's almost like a correction with us, or something, which I don't really like. For example, Odin will stare at other dogs on our walks, which I know is considered rude by the other dogs if they notice. He can be very intense about it. He has to stop and sit at every intersection, but if he gets to staring he usually just stops and stands there and continues staring. Sometimes I can say sit (the sit is supposed to be uncued) and he still does nothing at all as if he never heard me. If I then say "look at me", he looks at me and sits. It totally works, but it seems like he's sitting and turning his focus to me because I'm putting some pressure on him, not because we're having one of our "team moments" (which we also do have so I know EXACTLY what you mean). Interesting there would be such a difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoZo Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm another convert to CU, it's really an amazing thing. I'm currently taking a Control Unleased class and I have to say, if you get an opportunity to do a class, it's totally worth it. I have re-read the various chapters and it makes much more sense to me now than it did originally. A trained instructor in CU can offer a lot of help on your specific dog issue too. One of my BCs gets over stimulated in flyball and wants to rerun all the time (and no longer listen to me) which is why I deciced to try the class. I've noticed a change for the better in flyball after only a few weeks of training. Last night we had an epiphany – she got the zoomies big time. I told her to "go to her mat" and she instantly stopped what she was doing (thrashing a toy), ran to her mat, laid down calmly and just looked at me for further instructions. Then, she laid there for 5 minutes, until I told her to go do something else. It was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I told her to "go to her mat" and she instantly stopped what she was doing (thrashing a toy), ran to her mat, laid down calmly and just looked at me for further instructions. Then, she laid there for 5 minutes, until I told her to go do something else. It was great. I had a student last winter whose dog got the zoomies a lot. She found the same thing with the mat and she did a real comical thing. She trained the word "safe" as a mat cue. Then, when the dog started to zoom, she would toss the mat onto the floor dramatically and call out "SAFE!" and the dog would run over and slide into the mat. It really did look like a baseball player sliding into home plate! Well, that's not exactly conditioned relaxation, but it got the job done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 CU should give you some really good tools. My dog used to be kind of a handful at agility class. We used a lot of the methods in CU and he is rarely ever reactive anymore. I can walk him through a crowd of dogs at an agility trial now and he is calm and under control. But, I also try not to push him past his threshold. What I found to be a great help while working on his control was to crate him whenever it was not his turn to be on the field. Until you can work your dog up to being able to handle the stress and excitement, your best option is to remove him from that environment (via a crate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 How could I locate a class? Do you think it would be to much for him to be in agility/obedience and CU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelseyF Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 How could I locate a class? Do you think it would be to much for him to be in agility/obedience and CU? I would look up online (or in the phonebook) all of the training schools nearby and give them a call. I'm sure one of them is bound to have at the very least a focus class. You would have to be the judge of what is too much for Colton. I'm sure that if all of the classes are on different nights, it wouldn't be a problem. He's a lucky dog getting to do so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I just got my book in the mail today and am curious if someone could break down how to train the "premacks principle" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I just got my book in the mail today and am curious if someone could break down how to train the "premacks principle" The Premack Principle isn't something that you train. Rather, it is something that you use as a training tool. I'll explain. FYI, the Premack Principle is not specifically a CU thing. Leslie didn't create it. Through CU, we learn to use Premack to our advantage in some extremely unique ways, but the Premack Principle is nothing new. OK, so what is it? I quote loosely from the CU book (page51) What the dog wants to do can be used to reinforce what you want the dog to do. There is so much more to this Principle than meets the eye. On the surface it sounds like "give the dog a treat for doing what you want", but that's not it at all. (Although you would still incorporate treats or other rewards into your training as usual) In order to use Premack, you must identify something that your dog truly wants. Often, this is something that we have been told never to allow our dogs to do! Some dogs, for instance, want to sniff. Some want to greet people. Some want to run around. Some want to explore the environment. Some want to hide. Etc. You use those sorts of things to reinforce the dog for doing what you want and what happens is that the value (to the dog) of the things that he or she wants transfers to the things that you are teaching the dog. It, like a lot of CU, is a reverse psychology sort of deal. For instance, if the dog wants to sniff so badly that he or she can't focus on anything else - fine, the dog can sniff! The dog can sniff when you release the dog to sniff! You end up putting what the dog wants (in this case, sniffing) under your control to reinforce what you want the dog to do (maybe doing a short Agility sequence or a start line stay, etc). The dog learns that he or she is allowed to sniff and it's no big deal - you will eventually release him or her to do so. And so sniffing becomes less of a big deal and often you can't get the dog to sniff for love or money! Moreover, the value of sniffing transfers to the task at hand. In CU, the Premack Principle is used in the Gimme a Break game. If you want to skip ahead, you will find details about this game starting on page 148. The beauty of using Premack is that it takes the conflict out of training. It's pretty amazing to watch in action. It truly does build focus. It builds focus like nothing I've ever seen! I hope that helped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclare Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I've been reading Control Unleashed and see so much potential in it, but I really really want to find a class to take. I've been looking all over with no luck, so if anyone here knows of any trainers in the DC area that use the method, I would love to hear from you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I'll ask around and see if I can find someone in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Kristine, That is SUCH a great explanation of the Premack Principle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Root Beer, You seem to know a heck of a lot about CU. I really need some practical things I can teach Colton to help get his focus. I want to teach him only what would work for his specific situation. He has a horribly high chasing instinct. If my younger brother/sister get into a fight he will immediatly rush over to them start barking/jumping/nipping their heels/arms. When they're calm he's fine he just can't take other people or other dogs getting riled up because then he barks/jumps/acts like a maniac. He has an "off" but it only seems to apply to tennis balls. I tell him off on a ball and he won't chase it, for some reason it's just not strong even though I work on it a lot. His "leave it" is also not good either. I restarted training it from scratch to no avail. Whenever another dog starts getting excited he immediatly wants to rush over to it. If I don't let him and do not redirect his attention he'll bark/jump etc. If other dogs are calm and collected he won't do anything to them just ignore them. He has a problem when other animals (people or dogs or cats etc) get excited. Any help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNM1980 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 After reading this thread, I'm also going to order this book. Thanks. I've also heard the Premack principle called Grandma's Law: "No dessert until you finish your greens." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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