DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I had a lady send me an email asking if I was interested in buying her dog. OK, So I ask for more details. He is 2 yrs old and intact and ABCA papers, been on stock a couple of times but not with her. She hasn't done anything with him except to run agility and use as a stud on her bitch. The bitch comes from ranch lines I believe but never trialed or worked sheep. She touted the fact he is from a National Finals winner and also has Supreme/International lines too. Sounds good so I ask for more details. His pups are worth a lot of money because he is so heavily well bred and others in his lines have been trial winners etc. One of his grandparents did trial but never was in the top consistently. I don’t recognize the other names. More details follows and I see a copy of the papers.....the GREAT, GREAT, GRANDPARENT is a Finals Winners and one GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, Grandparent are the UK International winner. I explained to her that he has 6.25% of his Nationals Finals winner and 3.125 % of the other International winners. The farther you go back the more diluted the blood is....I use this to explain to people the farther back, the less it means Parents =50% Grandparents =25% Great Grandparents = 12.5% Great, Great, Grandparents =6.25% Great, Great, Great, Grandparents = 3.125% It’s like me saying, I am famous and worth more because my ancestor fought in the Civil war….he was after all, my great, great, great, grandpa!! But I haven’t proved myself on any battles yet but because my great, great, great, grandpa was a General, I should be more valuable. (BTW I have no idea if any of my ancestors fought in the war) She didn’t get it and no doubt will continue to bred the male and bitch again….and advertise the Nationals and UK winner to the unsuspecting…..and unproven on the trial field…. ...oh. no hip checks on the 2 yr old as she said the parents had them done and he had never been lame..... Pups were $650... The male well over that.....I declined and I don't think I made a new friend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I was chuckling until I got to the end - $650 for basically back yard bred pups? Please, you folks who are planning breedings I'm interested in - if you are reading this develop amnesia right now. Otherwise I'll be buying me a $3500 puppy! Yeah, people think the achievement/relationship is like a last name - the dog automatically inherits it by being a product of the family tree. In fact, it's nothing to write home about unless you can show that the characteristics that made the dog great, or a great contributor to the breed (my eye is often caught by dogs with lesser or no titles that I know could be counted on to produce), were fostered deliberately in each generation, and then matched to complementary lines. I think that was a run-on but I am feeling a bit lazy and don't want to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I am changing my name to Diane Abe Lincoln Queen Elizabeth Virgin Mary Pagel . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I am changing my name to Diane Abe Lincoln Queen Elizabeth Virgin Mary Pagel . You missed out Joan of Ark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Just about every purebred pup advertised in the newspapers is "from champion bloodlines" or "from champ bloodlines" (gotta be my favorite BYB phrase), usually relating (as Diane pointed out) to some "successful" dog several generations back. Unless some dog has been backyard-bred forever, just about every dog will have a "champion" or two in their pedigree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sue R's real name is Sue Joan of Ark Mother Theresa R......!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Excuse me, but I am Queen Elizabeth! Impostor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ok, now I got all of you guys figured out Queen 1 and 2 and Joan I gotta go and find some place to pillage hugs, Ghengis Kahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Excuse me, but I am Queen Elizabeth! Impostor! Ah, but I actually am a Queen.....(it's my last name, but it hasn't seemed to up my worth any) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sue R's real name is Sue Joan of Ark Mother Theresa R......!! That makes me sound kind of saintly. I'm not. Are you sure we are talking about the same Sue R? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 No, I'm on board with JofA and Mother Theresa for Sue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Oh, yeah - see it with horse BYB's all the time - "He's got War Admiral behind him!" Yeah, him and every second TB in the world. TB families are even more *cough* closely bred than my own. Those unfamiliar with horse racing probably know War Admiral as the horse who lost the match race to Seabiscuit - so y'all can imagine how far back he'd be in the pedigree of any living horse. Anyway, I've read War Admiral tried to kill his grooms on a regular basis - and apparently this trait survives, as War Emblem is reputed to have the same sunny disposition. Just the breeding I'd want on a companion animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Just about every purebred pup advertised in the newspapers is "from champion bloodlines" or "from champ bloodlines" (gotta be my favorite BYB phrase), usually relating (as Diane pointed out) to some "successful" dog several generations back. Unless some dog has been backyard-bred forever, just about every dog will have a "champion" or two in their pedigree. That is so true. One Champion four generations back and further is so diluted...... Here is a typical ad I saw a couple of year ago...I dug it up: Well bred working Border Collies. From National Champion and International Champions lines. Parents work sheep. Proven Producers. ABCA papers So what do you think....sounds hopeful, right? I called and...... One USCHA Winner was 4th generation. International winners were 7-8 generations plus back. Person has a couple of sheep in their backyard and got a few lessons a few yrs ago but not now and/or goes to an ASCA person. They have never trialed. Hips on 2 grandparents were done but not on the dogs this person owns. They do other sports with the dogs. Dog also herds their horses and other dogs. Eyes have been done. Reason for breeding as they are well bred dogs. One grandparent was good Open dog, one was a trial dog (no info how good) and the other set were farm dogs. They like to herd the cattle? through the fence so they have the instinct. Hips as not been done but there has been no hip issues in the lines. They do agility and flyball? I think I am gonna send my hubby an email like this: "Hey, I am a hot babe in a seductive outfit. Tanned all over. Long dark hair, deep brown eyes and rudy red kissable lips" This is what he is gonna get.....when he shows up.... Me in a pair of Carhartt, muck boots covered in sheep poop, my hair coated with mud, and blood on my lips from when the ram hit my face when he tried to leap over me. And green sheep slime all over my body from wrestling a ewe in the unmucked stall" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Hey, I am a hot babe in a seductive outfit. Tanned all over. Long dark hair, deep brown eyes and rudy red kissable lips" This is what he is gonna get.....when he shows up.... Me in a pair of Carhartt, muck boots covered in sheep poop, my hair coated with mud, and blood on my lips from when the ram hit my face when he tried to leap over me. And green sheep slime all over my body from wrestling a ewe in the unmucked stall" Truth in advertising? I guess it depends on what turns him on. I think some men would much rather have a "useful" woman than just a decorative one. Not to say that you are not both useful and decorative! I love the reasoning that since the dog "herds everything" that it is a real Border Collie. I sometimes break out into a slow jog when the situation demands it - I guess I'm a track star. Well, a saintly track star. Joan of Arc - didn't they burn her at the stake when she'd outlived her usefulness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I have 4 sisters. We did not all turn out the same (thank doG). I am much better at some things than my sisters and they are better at some things than I am. We have the same ancestors. I really suck at politics, yet my Uncle once held a very high office in the white house. So much for passing along some of those genes. I have two Border Collies that are siblings from different litters. They were BYB and one is a fairly good working dog. The other while able to do simple tasks and has some good traits, is not nearly the dog the first one is. I worked with several other of their siblings and some showed a bit of ability but none were very good overall. With the kind of breeding they had (some really good dogs in their pedigree, and some not so good) it was a crapshoot what they would turn out like. I've never bred either of them. Why would I when I have no idea what they would produce? My next pup will be from proven working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Breed to proven and don't breed to unproven. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hello all, According to the HSUS there are 2000 puppies born every hour in this country, 1550 more than humans. 1 of 4 will find a home. 1 of 10 will stay with the original owner for life, and 5 of 10 will change owners before 1 year old. 3 million dogs will die in shelters this year and this applies to purebred dogs too, even ours. No matter how much I think of my dogs, I have bought much better puppies than I could have bred. IMHO that holds true for everyone, except for those lucky few who possess the 10 or so bitches and dogs in this country that are good enough to breed to. Cheers all, Attila the Hun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 No matter how much I think of my dogs, I have bought much better puppies than I could have bred. IMHO that holds true for everyone, except for those lucky few who possess the 10 or so bitches and dogs in this country that are good enough to breed to. Hi Amelia and all, I was really intrigued by this. I was one of those who said that I wouldn't breed a dog unless I couldn't buy a better and so had never bred a dog (nor ever realistically thought that I would). Jim Varnon was an old friend of mine, and I asked him once what he thought a "good dog" was; he seemed so hard to please I had begun to wonder if they existed at all. He said that a "good dog" was a dog that had the capacity to win any trial he entered. "It's not going to win every trial, of course," he said, "but as it goes up to the post you know that it has the ability to win. That's a good dog." I imagine that this is pretty close to your definition of a dog that is "good enough to breed to"? The challenge here, I'd imagine, is what you might call the "Secretariat Challenge." Many great performers don't breed well, and many of our great dogs haven't come from parents who themselves were great dogs. So maybe so far as breeding is concerened, if we take the "Good Enough" philosophy, we are setting the bar too high or are not taking something into account some things which we should? It would be interesting to hear the opinions of people who have bred many quality dogs on this, although I suspect that culling plays a larger role than many dog lovers might care to admit. If someone who is handy with a ouija board could ask J. M. Wilson a few questions about his program, it would be very interesting to read the answers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 No matter how much I think of my dogs, I have bought much better puppies than I could have bred. IMHO that holds true for everyone, except for those lucky few who possess the 10 or so bitches and dogs in this country that are good enough to breed to. You may have the opinion that they could buy better then they breed, but since we all hold different view points and ideals diversity will be preserved. My top 10 dogs will be different then your top 10 dogs which will be different from someone elses. This is probably going to get confusing, but I was just thinking about this whole deal limiting breeding to Champions, how tightly bred would our lines be if we did that, only 2 USBCHA Champions each year, only one World, you have the individual countries I'm assuming. What maybe 6 dogs a year, if 50% are males, probably 1/2 will be related, leaving you a 1.5 increase of dogs to the gene pool each year. Using an average of 8 year breeding life, that leaves 12 males that everyone in the world would be studding to each year, bred to how many worthy females? But then we have to exclude the crosses that don't niche, and then not everyone would want to breed to the cattle dog champion or vs. versa. Then you get those that think only top should be bred to top, heck, there wouldn't be enough puppies to go around, oh....that's what people are trying to get to, what's the point of trying to acheive a goal that is not in the best interest of the breed just for the sake of standing for a cause. Personally my standard of what I want to produce is higher then I can produce, but that does not mean I should not breed, it gives me something to breed towards, with each cross trying to get closer to my ideal, but I'll never achieve my standard or ideal because the bar is forever getting higher. When you can go out an buy a dog that meets your standards then there is no reason to breed, you won't be contributing to the overall gene pool, you'd be breeding what is rather then breeding what could be. Right there is a possible answer to the breeding question, are you making the mating to reproduce what you have or to attempt to improve what you have, if the first is true don't breed or buy from that breeder, if the second is true more power to you. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 but I was just thinking about this whole deal limiting breeding to Champions, I don't think anyone has ever advocated just breeding to "champions." I think it has been said to breed to proven dogs. Not necessarily the National Finals Champion, but any dog which proves himself either on or off the trial field. By proven I think we mean a dog that can handle any situation well and take direction well. I personally think the breeding should be left to the people who know how to see what qualities the dog has. The people who know the bloodlines and what they produce. I had a well known handler go over one of my dog's pedigrees one time. He could tell me about the individual dogs traits going back a few generations. Not just the supreme champions, but the dogs who had not won either a supreme Ch or a Natl Ch. He also pegged the personality of a pup I bought without ever getting to see that dog work after it grew up. Just because he knew by the parents, what went into that dog. I will never be a good enough handler to make a decision alone about breeding any of my dogs. But if I can become a good enough handler to get my dog out there and it shows enough qualities to make it stand out, then I would consult a more knowledgeable person about breeding my dog and which dog to breed it to. Those good bloodlines don't have to be lost as long as we use common sense and not our emotions or pocketbook when it comes to breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I guess it's come up in other places by people trying to justify why not to breed a certain dog or to a certain dog. My point is to show how tight of a bottle neck is created, the higher the standard of proof that your willing to select your breeding pairs to the tighter the bottle neck. I'm not advocating breed everything but that it's ok to breed as long as your selective, and have a higher standard that your trying to achieve. Be realistic as to just how good your dog is, not just that it's proven, it's proven but lacks this or that and seek out people that are realistic about their own dogs. I'm not for someone breeding a proven dog just because it's proven, basing their decisions on someone else, IMO it's no better then people asking you to breed because they want a pet from your nice dog. I'm kinda going off thread, but it's in my head, the term BYB, people breeding dogs in their back yard just to reproduce what they have, it can be on any level, if your breeding a proven working dog just to because you think it needs to reproduce is it any better then the person breeding the pet just because they think they need it to reproduce, their just producing puppies. Take that same breeder but they breed to higher level they are no longer BYB's but advancing their bloodline. We try to tell people to buy from breeders that test and have proven lines among many other requirement, but, we don't talk about the goals of the breeding program, is it just to produce puppies or in an effort to improve their lines? Anybody can go out and purchase proven dogs or dogs from proven lines, have all the genetic tests, trial them or have them trialed, but does that mean the mating is being done to advance or maintain the breed, or is just to sell puppies to the people? I think it's why you see key pedigree names being advertised on websites or other buzz words, the breeder is breeding to sell pups. Some how we need to get the emphizis off the pedigree but on to the dog, when that happens pedigrees will be used for what they were intended, as tools not advertising billboards. If you have a good line of dogs do you have to advertise? In many case you don't see the breeders that are trying to advance a line advertise, other then one here or there to let people know that other options are available, more as a service announcement. Sorry, just kinda throwing stuff out there, it's all related but not. I gotta get out and get noon chores going. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm not really sure about the purpose of breeding being to improve. Golly, it's a heck of a job just maintaining the balance that makes this such a consistently useful breed. Sure, if you start out with "grade" females then you should want to "breed up" but most of what I've seen from the great breeders is a drive to keep certain characteristics consistently in each generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I was talking about an ad that I saw that stated Nationals and International Champions and the way it was worded, it sounded like they were up close and the parents were proven dogs...when in fact, the Champions were many generations back and the parents did have some exposure to stock but never trialed and were in fact, agility dogs. To a newbie this sounded like a great pup to buy but alas it was a BYB who had two dogs that good genetics a bit back and the parents wre not proven in any way, shape or form. And the price was $650. Neither parents were proven in any way on stock...not even at the Novice level. Some crosses just don't work well together. You shouldn't bred two dogs together unless you know their strengths and weaknesses. Let's say you have a soft dog that has no power....bred it to a dog that is soft and no power......and the generations behind them are soft/lack of power....what do think the pups might be like? You bred them because you *like* the parents....or own them* or the color or the personalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 You bred them because you *like* the parents....or own them* Hello all, it seems to me that this is the sole reason behind way too many breeding choices, but it's done by well meaning individuals who, in your example, Diane, don't have a clue that their dog is soft. It brings the katahdins in from the flat, fenced 3 acres of grass out back like a freight train, so, to them, it's powerful and brilliant. Not to mention the most talented dog they've ever seen and very valuable. Cheers all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 >> but it's done by well meaning individuals who<< In once case by a person who knows it all, having yet never competed in a trial. Not well meaning, but far superior to me of course. >>Not to mention the most talented dog they've every seen and very valuable<< This is so true!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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