Hunter10 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Hey everyone, I have been browsing the forms for a couple of days now I still have a few questions. We adopted a Border Collie/Lab mix from a shelter on Sunday. So far things have been pretty good. He is 10 weeks old and knows sit and stay pretty well, and only took about a day for him to realize he has to go potty outside. We also signed up for puppy classes that start in a week. There are a couple of behaviors that have me a bit worried and would like some help on. What are normal puppy behaviors with their mouth. Hunter will sometimes snap in the air with some growling. Sometimes this is from getting excited while playing and sometimes I think it is from getting frustrated when we won't let him do things like chew on the carpet or jump on the couch. My girlfriend said that tonight he put his paws up on the couch when she was sitting up there and she said "NO" and brushed him off. He sat down, then put his paws on the couch, growled and snapped his jaws in the air. As far as she could tell there was no lunging. He knows pretty well that he can't bite because we do the Yelp when he puts his mouth on our hands and looks at us like he is very sorry for putting is mouth on us. Also today in the morning I was trying to get him to sit and stay before we put his food in his crate. I had my hand on his collar and one on his side. He wanted to eat bad and was being very wild. He growled a bit and reached back like he want to bite but never did. He has not problem or has never growled when I pick up his dish or take a toy. Is he too young to try the sit and stay before being fead? I don't want to raise an agressive dog and it is a fear of mine because I have been bitten when I was younger and it was not fun (in the face ) I have a couple of other questions but I will wait for these responses. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 ...We adopted a Border Collie/Lab mix from a shelter on Sunday...There are a couple of behaviors that have me a bit worried...My girlfriend said that tonight he put his paws up on the couch when she was sitting up there and she said "NO" and brushed him off. He sat down, then put his paws on the couch, growled and snapped his jaws in the air...we do the Yelp when he puts his mouth on our hands...Is he too young to try the sit and stay before being fed?... I'm not a trainer, just a dog owner. I haven't owned as many as some here, so take my advice as coming from an amatuer. When I get a puppy, I spend the first week or so doing nothing but getting him comfortable with me. Potty training comes from the crate & watching. Any rebuke at this stage is just taking him out quickly. I figure I'm a pretty terrifying sight to a 10-20 pound puppy, and he needs to learn some trust. Next, we start on the "come" command. Mine does double duty - COME to me and good things happen, or COME to me because all is forgiven and good things happen. What I mean is this: Neither dogs, puppies or young kids understand time. I made my oldest daughter cry when she was little. I told her I was going to cancel her 5th birthday, so she would always stay 4 and be my little girl. She thought I meant it, and had the power to do so. Mom found her bawling in her bedroom a little later. "I want to be 5! I want to be a big girl!" If a 4 year old girl has problems with time, can you imagine what it is like for a puppy? So after the first week or so, we'll start on some negative correction. I'll use a loud "NO!" - that is usually enough. Maybe a 1-2 finger swat on the rump. Then wait 5 minutes, and tell him to come to me. It usually is so scary that I'll have to get on the ground next to him and call. One step in the right direction means he gets hugs and praises. Before long, he learns that after being in trouble, 'come' means all is forgiven and we're best buddies. This sets him up for some negative training. If he growls at me in anything other than play, he'll get a quick swat (1-2 fingers) and lecture. A few minutes later, "Come!" Climbs on the couch? The same. A puppy isn't too young to take correction from an older dog, and he's not too young to take correction from me. He just needs to know it is correction, and not meanness or bullying. That means catching him in the act, or nothing. I'm not a big fan of yelping. It is too much like saying, "You are capable of hurting me if you wish!" Then I have to depend on his wishes. I have yet to see my puppy make a serious snap at an adult dog. Play? Yes. Serious? Never. And if my older dog doesn't have to put up with it, neither do I. If the puppy bites, even in play, I end play. I act offended. I may lecture them - my puppies get a lot of lectures. Like little kids, it isn't what you say but how you say it. But no play for 5-10 minutes. They soon learn that snapping ends the fun. The Border Collie we had when our kids were little knew she was lower on the pecking order than they were, but she didn't like it. When she got really mad at them, she would turn her head and gnash her teeth. She never tried to snap at them, but I didn't accept her turning her head and gnashing either. Too close for comfort. When puppies are very little, I will sometimes take their food away from them, then put an extra special treat on it and give it back to them while they are watching. It teaches them, I think, that humans take your food away to give you something even better. I like my dogs to be willing for me to take bones out of their mouths, or their food bowl away without protest. And why shouldn't they? It just means they are about to get something even more wonderful. Since they have no concept of time, you have to do it while they watch and have the good treat ready to go - warm bacon grease, or leftover meat or an egg. There are people on this board who have trained a lot more dogs than I have - they may have better advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 It is not likely you will raise an aggressive dog unless you provide no training or you are aggressive toward the dog yourself. I have found in the vast majority of cases of aggressive dogs it is am owner issue. You will find some great information on this board about books you can get that will help you raise, understand and train your dog. Normal behavior with and puppy and a mouth is that everything goes in and everything is tested. They understand the world with their mouths like we do with our hands. It is up to you to train what the puppy can and cannot mouth such as hands. Biting and nipping is a part of puppy play along with chewing. It is again up to you to train. Just because a puppy mouths something or nips does not mean it is an aggressive dog in any negative sense. The snapping of the mouth does not indicate negative aggression, it is more likely to be assertion or attention. My youngest dog which is now almost two still does it when he wants attention or an object or just wants to provoke a play session with us or our other dogs. A good book about how dogs communicate would be helpful. I am not certain why you were touching the dog while you were feeding him and that is not a good time to teach sit and stay nor is touching him a good way to teach sit and stay. Certainly he is excited about his food when he is hungry. You should be able to take things from him when he is eating or playing without being snapped at but teach this outside of mealtime and then transfer it. I do not touch my dogs while they are eating. I can, they will allow it and I expect it but I make it a point that mealtime is for them in their own space in the same fashion I do not expect to be bothered when I am eating. When puppies are born they compete for their food and will defend their right to eat. Go slow, take your time and allow the dog some space at feeding time. I want my dogs to be relaxed at feeding time and they are. They take their time and sometimes even lie down to eat and I give them all the time and space they need. Others may feel differently but that is my way. My dogs I feel are under enough stress with their work that I like to provide relaxation time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pili Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I can't really help you, but I do want to commend you on rescuing! I also just rescued an older puppy. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 It really sounds like the issues you're having are such that you really need some in-person help. If I were you, I'd consult your puppy class instructor since they know puppies well given the classes they teach and should be able to interpret what you're seeing more easily than us on a message board. That being said, I have seen puppies show aggression this young, especially over food and other resources, and whenever this is the case I take it quite seriously. Please do not brush this off as a "phase" get help sooner rather than later. If your trainer isn't able to help you, you can do a search for a Certified Pet Dog Trainer at www.apdt.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I made my oldest daughter cry when she was little. I told her I was going to cancel her 5th birthday, so she would always stay 4 and be my little girl. She thought I meant it, and had the power to do so. Mom found her bawling in her bedroom a little later. "I want to be 5! I want to be a big girl!" If a 4 year old girl has problems with time, can you imagine what it is like for a puppy? Um, Why do fathers do that??? My dad came home once with a deer in the back of his truck and told me it was Bambi's mom.?! It's not funny guys! Anyway, to get back on topic. I agree that you should consult your puppy class trainer about these issues, she'll be able to help you get a better handle on the situation. We can't see what he's actually doing, so it's really tough to tell if he's acting aggressive or just doesn't know how to deal with his frustrations yet. I would also suggest doing a google search for Nothing In Life is Free (NILIF). That mindset when training a young dog will come in quite handy! Puppies do tend to put everything in their mouth as DTrain said, so he may be trying to figure things out, in his own way. Here is are some good tips for mouthing: http://www.arf.ab.ca/learn/trainingtips-mouthing.shtml Also, when my dog gets really frustrated with us, mostly when we are teasing her with a squeaky toy, she will lay down and snap her teeth at us...it's like she's barking but nothing comes out. She'll do this a couple of times, then actually bark. I'm not telling you to brush off your puppy's behaviour, because it could actually be serious, but this is a way my dog plays with us, so it could be nothing as well. Talk to your trainer. Oh, and thanks for rescuing! We'd also like to see pictures.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Definitely talk to the instructor of the training class that you will be starting soon. Without seeing the dog, it is impossible to tell what is going on and any advice given online without seeing the behavior could be totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I agree with bringing all this up with your instructor. In the mean time.... Free puppy book download from Ian Dunbar. I've heard good things about it. http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Hello all, 10 weeks is pretty young to ask a puppy to sit and wait to be fed. That's something I usually start around 5,6 months depending on maturity. I feed my puppies in a crate or their kennel and I use that time to teach them "crate" and "kennel." I want them to run right in when I say the word and be happy about doing so. When it's time, I then teach them lie down in their crate or kennel before I put their food down and make them stay down until I let them up. This teaches and enforces the down, which comes in handy when it's time to go to stock. As for the growling and snapping when brushed aside, this is puppy play at his age. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but would simply repeat the brush off with more resolve if he put his feet back up, or whatever he did that brought the brush off to begin with. You're not teaching aggression, you're teaching manners. cheers all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter10 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks for all of the info you posted. Hunter is doing well. I think a lot of he is doing is just being a puppy after being able to watch him closer for a few more days with that being said though the problem is not being ignored as we are signed up for puppy classes to help us train him. He met some neighbor kids the other day and did really well. The only thing that still kind of has my attention is he seems to get scared outside and will not walk very far from the apartment (he does fine near the apartment). I'm not sure if it is because he is cold or still getting used to the surrondings. Yesterday he heard some noises outside that he could not tell where they were coming from and the hair on the back came up. There is a picture of Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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