Ooky Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Odin's recovery is coming along so well, and we are thinking again to livestock training. My goals are to see what he and I can do together, to see if we really like it and if I can forge an even better relationship with my dog. Maybe someday I will have stock but that is not certain and if in the future I did absolutely need a capable stockdog I could always get another dog in addition to Odin (in the case that Odin is hopeless at this). My point being that Odin does not have to be great, I don't have to be great, we just want to see what this is about. I have an opportunity to train with someone I actually know in professional circles, a woman who runs one of my company's offices. She is a professional and scientific role model of mine, so I already know I admire her mind. She owns acreage in N. coastal CA and about 100 head of dorper/st croix cross sheep. She trains and breeds her kelpies (very reasonably, specifically for working/competitive trialing ability, and with 1 litter every 1-2 years). She is not a BC trainer. However I have read many times on here that you should really not have a total newbie trainer + a total newbie dog (with un-dog-broke sheep being the worst triad) be the 1st experience. I'd like to know, how different is it to train the 2 types of dogs? I really want, for personal and even professional reasons, to go up to visit her and have her work with Odin for his first time, or to have her help me with him on sheep at least. I wanted to know what the BC trainers here think, as I know there are BC-centric trainers (and good ones) much closer vicinity to me. In any case, she is hosting a 3-day clinic at her farm in August, and DH and I have already made plans to go. My second question is, should I try to have lessons (either BC-oriented or any type) before then? I mean what level of proficiency is needed for the typical "beginner" day at one of these things? Odin will be 17 months then. Thanks for any input you can give, I really appreciate it -- -Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hello all, I say just relax, go and have fun. I wouldn't have any expectations other than to gain exposure and enjoy a day with family and friends in the fresh air with my dog. Experience has a funny way of directing us. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hi Kelly- I guess some people would say I have a "kelpie trainer" because that is his chosen breed. He also trains border collies, Aussies, healer's, etc... Each in their own way. I also go once to twice a month to a woman in Open- just to get the rules straight. I have been told by my old trainer, that the new one is very good- That's good enough for me! The woman I visited in ID that's in Open- said Usher was coming along VERY nicely- he did a little driving that she didn't know he could do. If you check with most border collie trainers, they ALSO train other breeds and vise versa. When I was out to the Open gals house- she had an Aussie there- not uncommon for people that train dogs to be versatile in many breeds. I would only say "do your research" you don't want an AKC person, a ranch person is fine. I really am fond of my new trainer and his family. I got a call for a service dog- they are lending me her for 2-3 weeks, to see if she can just retrieve for a wheelchair bound lady- if it doesn't work, he and his wife don't want me to get "stuck with 3 dogs" LOL. I babysat the little grandkids and am stuck with a cold- forgive my spelling errors. Dianne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I'd like to know, how different is it to train the 2 types of dogs? Not really much difference, especially when starting young dogs. Probably more important is the methods and aims of the trainer, the sort of trialling they do, the sort of work they get from their dogs, and whether it fits with what you hope to achieve. My second question is, should I try to have lessons (either BC-oriented or any type) before then? I mean what level of proficiency is needed for the typical "beginner" day at one of these things? Personally I think it's better if your dog has seen sheep a few times at least before going to a clinic, because some people find it demoralising of their dog is either disinterested or massively over-excited, which many dogs are at their very first exposure. You can still get a lot out of the teaching and experience, but sometimes people find that hard if it's their first time. I'd suggest asking the host- but usually beginner days here have a range of experience from "never seen sheep before" to just about ready to start trialling. They usually have quiet training sheep and facilities to cater for total beginners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I like Amelia's answer. Just relax take advantage of it and go with. I have been exposed to a lot of trainers, a lot of dogs and a lot of styles and in each case I have learned something of value or I have been inspired. When I first started training I worked with a gentleman who is one of the very best in the world, he just happens to be a friend. At first I decided to just shut up and listen. As I started to learn more I discovered that I was making a contribution and we would often discuss things to find we were both learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Thanks so much for the input, all. I really am new to this and don't have any clue what I should worry about vs. what I shouldn't, aside from the "herding" not being chasing, ACK-style. But AFAIK, this trainer is very rigorous and very much in the ISDS-style. I especially appreciate the advice re: level of proficiency for a clinic. The host kept telling me total beginner was fine, and it sounds like it would be fine, but maybe not ideal. I can see what mjk05 means and will take some bay area lessons to get over the very very beginning prior to the big clinic trip. I feel like what you describe is like snowboarding - almost no one likes it the first day or two and almost everyone loves it after achieving some base level of control and knowledge. I think Odin might be the type who doesn't seem interested in sheep, at least at first. He is easily called off squirrels and the like, doesn't attempt to chase cars or bikes, and when I've shown him sheep behind a fence before, he was initially interested but less so when he realized he couldn't do anything from where he was. I don't know if he ever will be really keen but I could see it taking a while for him to understand, after growing up with these cats, that it's finally ok to try and control something! I myself am really looking forward to it as well. I know little about actual stockwork but am around stock a lot and am not afraid of the idea of holding my ground against sheep in an enclosed area, when I have moved cattle myself ("being the dog") many, many times. I find myself looking forward to the contact with the sheep nearly as much as working with Odin. Anyway, I plan to utilize my contact with this person, thanks for the info that kelpie techniques are not that much different. I will keep you all updated, thanks, Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Kelly, Based on your description of Odin it sounds like he is easily discouraged which could be good but also bad. Since you already suspect that he may not have a ton of interest is there a chance that you could take some lessons with a dog that already has a start so that you can get a grip as to what you want Odin to learn when you take the plunge with him? It's real easy to teach a easily discouraged dog that you don't want it to work stock without realizing it. They need to be set up for success, it's not just a matter of letting them do what they want, it's a matter of setting things up so that what you want comes easy and they don't venture into doing something wrong. I hope this makes sense. It's fun to try to learn together, but some dogs don't fair well with that approach, they need a rock solid teacher, and the only way to be a good teacher is to know what you should and can expect of your student. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 There's a kelpie person in NoCal? Wish I'd known, I would have liked to see those dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Based on your description of Odin it sounds like he is easily discouraged which could be good but also bad. Since you already suspect that he may not have a ton of interest is there a chance that you could take some lessons with a dog that already has a start so that you can get a grip as to what you want Odin to learn when you take the plunge with him? It's real easy to teach a easily discouraged dog that you don't want it to work stock without realizing it. They need to be set up for success, it's not just a matter of letting them do what they want, it's a matter of setting things up so that what you want comes easy and they don't venture into doing something wrong. I hope this makes sense. It's fun to try to learn together, but some dogs don't fair well with that approach, they need a rock solid teacher, and the only way to be a good teacher is to know what you should and can expect of your student. Debbie, thank you for this! I feel like I understand exactly what you are talking about. Unfortunately, I have no idea if anyone I know (or could take lessons from) would let me try on their good dog. Is this sort of thing normal to ask? Odin feels very special to me, which is part of why I liked the idea of someone I *know* working him for his first time, rather than someone who came recommended but I didn't know. But it sounds so cool, like you are advocating a parallel training path for newbie me like I have read might be good for newbie Odin. Anyway, Odin is easily discouraged as you say. From what I've read here he might lack eye as well - when he does stalk he often stalks forward, head up. Although, as his person and to not play down his good qualities I have to add that he's got a lot of confidence, both physically and mentally, is extremely biddable, and easily amped up as well. What types of things could you maybe explain in writing (I know a lot doesn't really translate) that I could do to when we start to make him know I DO want him to work stock? And Melanie, I PM'd you with her website. I myself cannot wait to see her dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Ooky, If you're with the sheep and your dog appears disinterested, go to the sheep and move them yourself. Often that will be enough to pique your dog's interest. Also, if he's easily turned off from working, I'd be very careful with my corrections at first. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Ditto Julie. And Amelia, too. Personally, I don't think you can anticipate how a dog is going to be on stock. Ooky may surprise you in a couple of different ways. The most important thing is that his first experiences on stock be nothing but posititive. I don't mean let him hurt any sheep, but as Julie said, if you're worried about turning him off, I'd watch the corrections. My advice would be to let the trainer handle him the first few times. That way you don't have to worry about your lack of experience getting in the way or affecting him. Once you see what he's got and what he can take, and you've got a better grasp of what to do yourself, then you can start working him. I let my trainer work Jack for quite a few lessons before I jumped in. If it were me, I think I'd like to have my dog at least have some exposure to sheep before I did a 3 day clinic. Just a few lessons (more if you both like it) to get him exposure and so that you'll know he's even interested before you take the time and money out for a clinic. Have fun. I predict you'll both get a lot of out it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 But it sounds so cool, like you are advocating a parallel training path for newbie me like I have read might be good for newbie Odin. The way I look at it, it can't hurt to ask, there might be an old retired war horse back in the kennel that can show you the ropes so that you can understand first hand out in with the sheep what it should look like and feel like, it's different when your inside the pen vs. watching from outside the gate. You can get the chance to have the dust settle in your mind so that you can begin to see the little things that your looking for so you can successfully train your dog. BTW, I'm not anticipating how the dog is going to be on stock, I'm anticipating based on what the owner already has shared how the dog will handle mistakes that the owner makes while trying to learn what she should and should not accept. I believe that training is training, if they handle training off stock in a particular manner, their going to handle it the same way when they go to stock. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think Odin might be the type who doesn't seem interested in sheep, at least at first. He is easily called off squirrels and the like, doesn't attempt to chase cars or bikes, and when I've shown him sheep behind a fence before, he was initially interested but less so when he realized he couldn't do anything from where he was. I don't know if he ever will be really keen but I could see it taking a while for him to understand, after growing up with these cats, that it's finally ok to try and control something! I just meant that I don't think anything here points to him not being interested, and that he might be plenty keen and surprise her. I believe that training is training, if they handle training off stock in a particular manner, their going to handle it the same way when they go to stock. I am greener than green and sure that you're much more experienced in this area than I am, but I don't think this holds true for every dog. My dog is very soft off stock and will run for the hills if you look at him cross. On stock he is very confident, almost hard and can take quite a correction (or three ). Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I am greener than green and sure that you're much more experienced in this area than I am, but I don't think this holds true for every dog. My dog is very soft off stock and will run for the hills if you look at him cross. On stock he is very confident, almost hard and can take quite a correction (or three ). Just my opinion. You are right--how a dog reacts to pressure off stock doesn't necessarily correlate with how the dog will react on stock. I've got a couple who are fairly soft in general, but who when working become rather hard headed. And I have one who can take any sort of correction off stock but can become sulky when corrected on stock. Ooky, In Odin's case, I don't think I'd go to the clinic with any preconceptions at all. Go with an open mind and see what happens. Remember that what you see the first few times on stock might not be what he will always be like on stock--that is, his first few experiences won't necessarily dictate how he'll react to pressure, etc., in the long run. It's a brand new experience, and he'll likely need to get his sea legs under him, so to speak, before you can start making judgments about him. Regarding your comment about his disinterest in sheep behind a fence, that could just be showing good sense! But it is partly why I suggested that you get in there and move the sheep yourself. Often movement of the sheep will get things going like nothing else does. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I am greener than green and sure that you're much more experienced in this area than I am, but I don't think this holds true for every dog. My dog is very soft off stock and will run for the hills if you look at him cross. On stock he is very confident, almost hard and can take quite a correction (or three ). Just my opinion. I guess I'm reading things differently, Odin has already been told no, granted through a fence and was easily discouraged. Would your dog have done the same, or would he have wanted is stock bad enough to blow you off under that same initial situation? You kinda gotta go what information is offered and apply your individual expirences. Mine are that you may need to give a dog like that encouragement and be careful to not set him up into a situation where he would need to be corrected, and that's hard to do when you have no stock dog training expirence. Just something that I've been playing and actually seeing huge improvements since I've realized it, if a dog is allowed to evade a correction away from stock he will do the same on stock, it just may manifest differently. Running away from a corrective look may be evadence, contining to work in an incorrect fashion and blowing off the correction or making you repeat it is evadence. Work with the evadence away from stock and teach the dog to seek change, and he will do the same on stock. Also by giving a corrective look or veral correction and allowing the escape or not getting change is just threatening, which will require repeat with esculation until you reach the level that the dog knows it needs to change. I've probably had to much time to think this winter. I guess it's all a matter of what available to you for help and just run with it. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I just meant that I don't think anything here points to him not being interested, and that he might be plenty keen and surprise her. My dog is very soft off stock and will run for the hills if you look at him cross. On stock he is very confident, almost hard and can take quite a correction (or three ). Just my opinion. He has surprised me with plenty else in his short life, so I don't rule that out at all. I wouldn't call Odin really soft, but he can be dramatic. He'll take what I think of as a neutral correction fine but if we get to the "I really mean it" voice, which doesn't happen often, he often looks overly abashed. But I know he's fine. DH corrections, although they often sound harsher (e.g., "&*&$(*, Odin, knock it OFF!"), don't tend to phase him in the least. He bounces back quickly from stuff, for example he just got attacked by another dog this weekend on a walk, completely unprovoked. No injuries, but the dog shook him and bit him and dragged him into the street and it was *loud*. He urinated all over himself and screamed. I and the dog's owners got the other dog off him, and even though I had dropped his leash he stayed right with me. He was then happy to meet the attacking dog's owner once the other person dragged away their pit bull. Once I knew he had no punctures or blood, and no limping or anything, we finished our walk with me telling him it was all fine, played near the end as normal, and then he was excited to meet another dog only 15 minutes or so after the incident. Sort of nervous excited, but he still wanted to. I don't know if any of this would relate to stock, all I'm saying is that even when he has bad/scary situations he seems fairly well able to brush it off and get back to focusing on rewarding things. We will just have to see, like you say, but it is nice to get advice like Debbie and Julie's in case the situation occurs that he has little interest. It also really highlights the importance of letting someone else work him the first time(s), as I won't probably understand 1) exactly how he's fitting in the range of how dogs act during their initial exposure, and 2) what the ramifications of a lot of my actions during that time are. And I like Debbie's quote about trying to work an old "war horse" until my mind dust settles. Makes perfect sense, I will ask! Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and interesting replies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I guess I'm reading things differently, Odin has already been told no, granted through a fence and was easily discouraged. Would your dog have done the same, or would he have wanted is stock bad enough to blow you off under that same initial situation? Yes, this is exactly what I wondered. It's the only bit of truly stock-appropriate info I have to go on. We probably looked at the sheep together for maybe 10 minutes. He ducked behind a bush at first and even went on point. I didn't want to ramp him up too much for fear he would just run under the fence as you say, but I did invite him to look, saying "look, sheepie sheepie" and "what are they doing?" He was definitely most interested when they moved (they didn't much as they were feeding on grain at the time) and barked when one sheep walked away from the others. But after 10 minutes or so he was just kinda sniffing around and not looking at them, so we left. Since he will tunnel through mountains for a frisbee, I was thinking it didn't seem like much interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I guess I'm reading things differently, Odin has already been told no, granted through a fence and was easily discouraged. Would your dog have done the same, or would he have wanted is stock bad enough to blow you off under that same initial situation? I guess I'm reading things differently, too. From the info that Odin's owner had provided, I still wouldn't call him easily discouraged. I'm just not seeing that, when what she said was he seemed very interested but then less so when he realized he couldn't do anything about it, i.e. the sheep were behind a fence. So, I don't see him being discouraged, he didn't have access to the sheep is all. Or so I thought. As for what MY dog would've done? He would've listened to me if I told him to leave the stock. I don't suppose he would've gone through/over the fence if he blew me off, but I highly doubt he would've blown me off, anyway. And I'm not sure where all the corrections talk came from, and what Odin can or can't handle. I didn't really get that as a concern here, but I appreciate the discussion. Ooky, Odin sounds like a pretty confident guy. I'm glad he wasn't hurt and bounced back so fast from the dog attack. As for sheep, just go have fun and whatever happens will happen. How's that for profound advice? ETA: We were posting at the same time, so I just saw your latest. You never know, that reaction was from behind a fence and probably at a little bit of distance. I still wouldn't chalk him up as uninterested, as I said, he could be plenty keen once he's in with them and they're moving. Also, plenty of dogs don't turn on the first or second time. Keep that in mind if he's not too into it the first time. He may just need a time or two. I'm sure your trainer will tell you that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Frankly I'd be more worried about a dog who acted like a complete maniac on the opposite side of the fence from the sheep than one who figured out, Hey, I can't get to them, so nothing of real interest there." To me the latter dog seems like one who has the good sense to realize he'd just be wasting his time and energy on something he can't have. Often the first thing that will get a dog to turn on is motion (as I said before), so sheep standing around eating grain aren't likely to stimulate much in a dog. Debbie, ISTM from Ooky's description that Odin wasn't told no but rather was encouraged ("see the sheepies") and just didn't really react except when one moved away from the others. I'd be hard pressed to say anything definitive about how such a dog is going to behave when it finally finds itself on the same side of the fence as the sheep. I'm not sure where evading corrections even comes into the picture here, but whatever. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Just go and absorb and have a fun time. There's really nothing bad that can happen at the clinic, unless the clinician's no good. Since you're in Oakland, you're quite near one of the best trainers in the country, Bill Berhow. He's out of town a lot, so if you get hooked you'll need to come up with supplemental working plans, otherwise you'll only be able to take lessons once or twice a month with long hiatuses in between. But I cannot recommend him highly enough and I would be looking into taking lessons with Bill if I were you. I am not sure I would bother with a Kelpie trainer who is a very long drive away for you, when Bill is right up in Zamora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Just go and absorb and have a fun time. There's really nothing bad that can happen at the clinic, unless the clinician's no good. Since you're in Oakland, you're quite near one of the best trainers in the country, Bill Berhow. He's out of town a lot, so if you get hooked you'll need to come up with supplemental working plans, otherwise you'll only be able to take lessons once or twice a month with long hiatuses in between. But I cannot recommend him highly enough and I would be looking into taking lessons with Bill if I were you. I am not sure I would bother with a Kelpie trainer who is a very long drive away for you, when Bill is right up in Zamora. I will certainly look him up. I have other really good reasons for wanting to go to Arcata, so I will still go there too. I looked on google earth - it looks hilly in Zamora! For some reason I thought it was in the valley. Again thanks for all the very thoughtful and helpful replies. I am pretty excited. As many here have said, I'm sure it'll just happen and we'll have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.