Ace Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Rush has always shown fear aggression, and I have been working on that and its gotten so much better I have been amazed at her progress. She never liked being touched on her back or her back legs, even as a puppy, but I have gotten to the point I can brush her back legs without her tucking her tail between her legs and snapping at the brush. I can even lightly pat her. As far as this new issue, she has never seriously bitten anyone, but I dont want it to get that far. I dont really have money to see a behaviorist, otherwise that would be my first step. I want to see if there is anything I can do before I go spend money I dont have. The Problem: If I touch her toes, or her face or head, or body when she is laying down, or when she jumps up, she growls, even when she is just standing up. But this is a different behavior. Its not the same scared tail between the legs growl, this is a full comfortable tail high in the air stance. I could randomly kiss her, and she growls, sometimes she snarls. Every now and then she growls while playing. I figured she really isnt like a normal dog, she doesnt play with other dogs, and she is just starting to really learn how to play with people without toys. She is my first border collie, and a little over a year old. My family is getting really fed up. I want to deal with this the correct way, and mostly they want to hit her, or get rid of her. And I determined to try my hardest to work on this before I give up. If she bites my mom or my dad then I have no real choice, they will put her down. Suggestions on what could have caused it. Its been pretty much random, just starting sometime in December. Thanks everyone Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 The first thing I would do is take her to the vet and make sure there is nothing physically wrong with her. When dogs are in pain they can act very strangely and they really have no way of telling us they hurt. In the past others have suggested having the thyroid checked. Hopefully someone with experience will tell you exactly what test to ask for. It's been mentioned a few times, so maybe if you search for it? This is where I would start if my dog started doing this. Hopefully all goes well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Diane, I think this is potentially a very serious situation. It's great that you have already been working with Rush's fear and have been making progress, but I think you're getting body signals that Rush is very near his threshold for touching and accepting affection at this time. My warning bell was also when you said how your family is reacting to him -- that they are tempted to hit him or give him away. This is the kind of reaction that is adding tension and anxiety to the mix, most certainly much of which Rush is sensing. I think you need to really start a program of working with Rush around the full range of his issues, esp around family, so that everyone's expectations are met. Some dogs are more work than others; some dogs are not the dogs we wish they were (i.e. fearful of lots of touching and cuddling), at least not without a lot of time and dedication. Living with a dog that has never been adequately socialized early in life can be a challenge, esp if not everyone in the family is committed to his rehabilitation, which sounds like the case in your home. I'm really glad you are taking this seriously. Have you read this? http://www.fearfuldogs.com/ Lots of really good information you can glean from here and help you broaden your program with Rush. There are others on this Board who have had lots of experience with this situation, so if you don't get many responses know that its not because no one cares, or that no one has been in your shoes, rather it is a very common and already much talked about scenario. And like most people, I think the best way to deal with fear-aggression cases is one-on-one, with a qualified trainer/behaviourist. But, if this is not possible right now for you, then lots of reading is in order. In the meantime, ask your other family members to practice NILIF with Rush -- that is, 'nothing in life is free' -- no free-feeding but getting him to do something for food, treats, toys etc. so the fact that he can must work for rewards will be reinforced, and he looks towards all people as creatures he wants to satisfy rather than be fearful of. I'd also recommend doing a search on 'fear aggression' at the top of the screen and read, read, read. Good luck and keep us informed, Ailsa ETA - sorry, read 'her' where I typed 'him' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 My first thought was possibly this new behavior is a physical thing. See your vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Its not the same scared tail between the legs growl, this is a full comfortable tail high in the air stance. I could randomly kiss her, and she growls, sometimes she snarls. Every now and then she growls while playing. I figured she really isnt like a normal dog, she doesnt play with other dogs, and she is just starting to really learn how to play with people without toys. She is my first border collie, and a little over a year old. My family is getting really fed up. I want to deal with this the correct way, and mostly they want to hit her, or get rid of her. And I determined to try my hardest to work on this before I give up. If she bites my mom or my dad then I have no real choice, they will put her down. Re-reading this and looking back on your previous posts, I see that you've had Rush since she was a pup. I thought she was a rescue who had fear-aggression issues when you adopted her and that you were in process of working through them. My mistake. Your previous posts seem to imply that she has been doing really well, you were trying agility with her, etc. I would agree with the others that her reaction to touch may be related to a physical condition. If you determine that is not the case, then it may stem from lack of desensitization and socialization when she was younger. She is actually still quite young and may be testing her boundaries with you and your family by calling the shots in regards to grooming, etc. Have you read Ian Dunbar's training books? There is a free download link from a thread on the Books and Videos section. I would recommend you read those, if you haven't already. Border collies are, in my experience, a very sensitive breed who are also very intuitive and manipulative when it comes to getting what they want . It's easy for them to test a first-time owner, and for exasperated secondary owners to give up on them because they're too 'difficult'. But I would say that with a combination of reasonable expectations (that is, consider the temperament of the dog first before pushing ahead with your own plans -- meaning, high-stress scenarios might not be within her comfort zone) and fair, consistent training (esp. through the teenage years ) your Rush will become a very well-balanced, predictable dog. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thank you all for the speedy replies. I actually just got back from the vet, we paid a bill, and we are getting insurance on the dogs then both of them have appointments sometime next week or the week after. Someone mentioned thyroid, is it a specific test I have to order papers for like OFA or something? or do I just ask my vet about it? I will google what I can. A few people mentioned Ian Dunbar's books to me when I had some issues with her before. I strongly believe whatever is wrong with her (if it isnt a health issue) is my fault. For one reason or another. She has been doing really well for a long time, agility and other sports/hobbies I started with Rush have been great, shes a good dog. The aggression is completely random. Sometimes she will cuddle, then other times she will growl and snarl. Again, thanks for all the information! I will start reading now. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 This sounds abnormal enough that I really think you should be taking her to a veterinary behaviorist. Not a trainer who calls herself a behaviorist, I mean a veterinarian who specializes in understanding the biological basis of behaviors in dogs and is certified as a vet behaviorist -- it is basically the equivalent of being a psychiatrist for dogs and certified practitioners use the acronym DACVB after their names. A veterinary behaviorist would be best able to identify a medical cause and to treat it appropriately. Failing that, a trip to a really good general practitioner vet would be my next choice, in the hopes that fixing whatever is wrong with Rush medically would fix the aggression without any further intervention. This could be the case if it is something like hypothyroidism (although I personally think that thyroid issues are overdiagnosed in dogs and too often used as excuses for behavioral problems that actually have other causes), or joint problems that cause pain, or what have you. A general vet may not be able to help you if, say, this has something to do with brain chemistry. Obviously no one can say without seeing Rush (and probably most of us couldn't say even if we did see her) but this does not sound like a training issue to me, or like something that you "did" to her. If I were you I'd seek qualified veterinary help. www.veterinarybehaviorists.org I know you said you're short on funds but if you really want to get to the root of the problem there aren't that many cheaper substitutes. Also, the up front costs can seem high but you usually get lots and lots of follow up for free, and honestly, I do not think behaviorists are more expensive than a vet visit for most garden-variety emergencies would be. For example, one visit for Solo cost less than it did to get a mammary tumor removed on Fly. I consider getting medical treatment for Solo's brain to be just as important as getting Fly's boob tumor removed. A behaviorist appointment cost a hell of a lot less than it cost to get Solo's root canal done, and would have cost less even if I'd opted for the extraction instead. What I am trying to say is that seeing a veterinary behaviorist is not a luxury, nor is it excessive -- it is getting necessary veterinary care for your dog. I would argue that it is even more crucial than certain other veterinary procedures, since you said yourself that if this problem is not addressed it will mean death for Rush. To me not exploring this option is like not addressing a diagnosis of cancer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I will look into it. I dont pay for anything really except my agility entry fees usually, because school is my main focus I dont have a job. I want to explore every opinion possible to me. I am not closing any doors just yet. Money is a big issue with my family. Especially during this time, as i'm sure it is with a lot of people. I m gonna try my best though. I did go to the website and found someone actually in my city. I really can thank everyone enough, I have heard everything everyone has said, even if it seems like it went in one ear and out the other. I have a huge list of what I am considering is wrong with Rush now, and hopefully I can narrow the list down. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Rush sounds A LOT like Ceana at her worst. It has been a long road, but we have seen a big change in behavior from her. The biggest thing to remember is that your dog is going to act off of your feelings. The more fraustrated and distressed we got, the more Ceana would act out. To this day I can tell that if I come home upset from work she is a little bit more on edge. When working with her we just had to take a step back, take a deep breath, and smile at her. Nothing can ease your fraustration as well as just smiling at your dog. It sounds silly, but for us it worked. I agree that you should see a behavioralist ASAP. Melanie's advice is priceless: I consider getting medical treatment for Solo's brain to be just as important as getting Fly's boob tumor removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted January 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Smile. Ok, i'll remember that. I know its hard sometimes when things get frustrating and I believe a lot of people on her know better then anyone. Thanks again, really, I dont know how I can ever really thank everyone enough, I have already learned enough and talked to my dad about a few of the programs (he seems a little more willing to fix this then I originally thought). So thank you again, Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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