Energetic puppy

[FourO'clockRanch]

Hi! I'm new to the Boards--looks like you all are a friendly and helpful bunch! I have some questions about training our BC pup. (Actually she is 1/4 McNabb.) She is about 5-1/2 months old now. I have been training her to basic commands as outlined in the Living with Border Collies Online Pamphlet posted on this web sight. She has done really well--she learns fast and wants to please. But about six weeks ago she got kicked by our heifer and one of her front legs broke. Per the vet's orders, we have kept her inside most of the time and as quiet as possible. The splint is off now, and she is pretty well healed up. But recently, due to WAY too much pent up energy, and probably due to her particular age, too, we've been having some training problems. What do you do when the dog doesn't come when called? She does fine for the most part during our lessons, and I am working really hard with her on the recall on leash, but occasionally we need to call her when she's not on a leash, and then often she will ignore us or run away. I am never sure what to do when this happens. After reading a recent post, I tried the walking down, but it just turned into a slow chase instead of a fast one, with her waiting until the last moment to jump up and dash off. Another thing she has started doing is snatching my younger siblings' clothing, especially the nice dangly things like scarves. Gloves are another favorite. Then she won't let go. I DO NOT want her to do this. When she is excited like that, she will snap at my hands as well. (Not out of aggression, just excitement.) "NO" doesn't seem to work--I have been grabbing her muzzle and holding it shut for a couple seconds when she snatches at me, but that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference either. I think of it as unacceptable behavior. How do you go about physically punishing a dog? Rolled up newspaper? It seems to us that there should be some kind of severe punishment in these instances, that would only have to be administered once or twice before the dog would really get the picture. But we really don't want to harm her, of course, or make her mean, so thought we should ask some advice. I was also thinking maybe I should teach her the command Leave it. How do you teach that?

Sadie is a wonderful little puppy, with a great disposition, and I have no doubt that there is a way to train out these behaviors. We just want to nip them in the bud before they become a big problem. Any suggestions?

Oh yes, one other question: our recall command is "here." Is it confusing to use the command "heel" as well? (Do they sound too similar.) I know that she knows what "here" means, but I am not sure about "heel"--she heels fine in a building, like the shop or barn, but as soon as we're outside, she starts pulling even if I tell her to heel.

 

Thanks,

Annelise

[SS Cressa]

With Troy he was on a 30ft-60ft leash at all time outside with one end attached to me from 3 months-6months or till he had a good come.

 

When they don't want to listen off leash try running the other way and acting like you are having a ton of fun.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Hi Annelise,

Are you familiar with clicker training? Or using a "marker word" to mark behaviours that you like? A lot of people do clicker train their dogs, so it would be helpful to know if you're familiar with the terms.

 

For a solid recall, I make sure I am THE MOST FUN thing in the world! Every time the dog comes to me, it's a party. Start out indoors on leash, say dogs name and when she looks at you say the recall word. When she comes to you, reward her with food and praise. Send her back out, you might have to toss a treat away from you to do so and repeat. Continue on until she is always coming to you and make the distance between her and you greater and greater. At this point, I would say you could take the dog outside on a long line and start again, first close then further and further away. Every time the dog comes to you when called it should be rewarded by food/praise until the recall is solid, then you can start fading out the food. Never make coming to you a bad thing. Don't call her to you so you can scold her or anything negative like that. It won't help your recall.

 

Here is a good link on puppies jumping and mouthing, it might help.

http://www.arf.ab.ca/learn/trainingtips.shtml

 

I've only trained my dog the "leave it" command using a clicker, so if you are familiar with clicker training, then I will tell you all about it! It's too late to type anymore!

 

"Parenting you Dog" by Trish King would be a good book for you to look at. It's got a lot of great info from puppy hood to the senior years! Also, "The power of positive dog training" by Pat Miller.

 

Good luck

julie

[bsms99]

On all that follows: some folks here have more dogs than I've owned over the last 30 years. I'm not a pro trainer. I've owned pets, not competitor dogs.

 

Good luck on the run away problem. I have a 4 year old mutt that we've had 3 years. He knew to run when we got him. Since there is nothing he likes more than hunting field mice, I can't use treats to entice him back. I take him out in the desert a few times each week, let him run, and call him when he is ready to come anyways. If he refuses at the last moment, I drive off...he wants the ride back, so he chases us while the Explorer kicks dirt in his face. All this works because I have empty state land near by where I live. He's gone from running away from home for 24+ hours to reliably coming back within 30 minutes. Not great, but he's a smart dog. He knows the difference between a fenced in yard of 1/4+ acre, and no fence. Long lead, and none. He also knows the difference between wearing a shock collar, and not.

 

For 'severe discipline'...it varies from dog to dog. I had a BC/GSD mix that you could literally beat without any hard feelings. My current BC puppy is offended by a loud shout, but I've only had him 2 weeks. I recommend starting with a loud shout. Step up by taking hold of his neck. From there, if need be, hold him by each side of his neck and lift his front feet off the ground. Most dogs find this VERY intimidating. If needed, add gentle shaking side to side. It is the position that says, "I'm Boss", not force. The pound mutt is terrified of a rolled up paper - and I mean one sheet of notebook paper, rolled up. the least force he'll respond to is what you want. If you use too much, stop all training for a few days and just do reassurance.

 

Other things to try are 'round penning' the dog. With horses, you use a round pen to teach a habit of obedience. With a dog, the equivalent may be things like standing straddling the dogs body, facing forward. This is a very dominant position. Make it easier to deal with by giving treats. My pound mutt actually LIKES it - I'll rock him side to side and he tilts his head up. He takes it as, "We're good pals, aren't we!" You could try giving command the dog obeys well, and throwing a short distance 'here' at the end - if an animal has obeyed you 3 times in a row, #4 comes easier. Practice the things he does well to get him in the habit of obeying. For a while, avoid giving the command when it means leaving something fun. Only give it when it is something he wants to do, like come inside, or come get water or a treat. Associate it with "Good idea", not "I'm dead if I don't!"

 

Grabbing clothes: I'll give a quick slap, or a quick kick. By kick, what I mean is this: kick yourself in your exposed ankle. If you notice it but it doesn't hurt, that is about right. It is meant to imitate a no contact snap of teeth. If that isn't enough, a bit more force. Don't get angry or yell. You want a calm, "I don't like that" signal, not "I hate you". With some dogs, any contact would be too much.

 

I'll be looking forward to the other replies, particularly with recall.

[Ninso]

I use both "heel" and "here" (for obedience "front" position) and my dog doesn't seem to have a problem with those. He did have trouble distinguishing between "bow" and "down" though. It's probably different for each dog.

 

As for teaching your pup to heel, this is a very difficult command to master with several different elements. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like at this point you're not really look for a competition heel, but really just want your pup to walk on a loose leash. Either way, there have been numerous threads on both topics. If you do a search you should be able to find a bunch of info on teaching each one. If you have more questions, or can't find what you're looking for, let us know.

[Ooky]

Others here (and other posts) have much better advice than I could give for training recalls. I just wanted to commiserate having an injured, teenaged dog needing crate rest or extreme activity restriction at this age. Odin’s training had quite the set back due to his surgery and rest at a time when he would be bucking authority anyway. From what I’ve read, there was a good chance his recall/basic commands/control would have suffered at this age no matter what, but without the ability to train most things for 4-6 weeks (and me feeling sorry for and babying him) he did take several steps back in reliability. However, now we are working drills for stays, recalls, heeling, etc. along with our daily rehab and I’m seeing the opposite – his teenage rebellion seems to be calming and at the same time, the ability to drill each day strengthens his reliability and the “snappiness” with which he performs commands (I just love his military-style long range drop-to-down – as soon as he can physically drop with out skidding he’s THERE )

 

Keep at it! It sounds like your pup may just be entering the difficult stage and there may be some needed catch up from the training hiatus working against you as well as the normal rebellion. Odin has taught me so much about patience and he always, even when rebellious, gives back what I put into him. The other thing I noticed is that we used to have the best results training with food and C/T, but now he seems to do best with the reward being a toy. Try different methods and see which your dog responds to best. You might try a "drop-it!" command as well as a leave it - I use leave it before the object enters his mouth and use drop it if it is already there. This was trained using a tug toy., so it was really fun training. If you get a good solid drop-it during tug games, hopefully it will translate to gloves and scarves as it has done for us. Good luck!

[Shetlander]

What do you do when the dog doesn't come when called?

 

Train a solid recall. In the meantime, do not give her an opportunity to practice bad behavior. This may mean keeping her on a long line or in fenced in area or simply on leash. A walk down can last seconds or 45 minutes, but when done properly it doesn't need to happen more than once or twice, generally. It is easier to do in a small enclosed space than out in the wide open. It is important to stay calm and non emotional during the walk down. So if you are pressed for time, that is when you want to make sure the dog is on leash and can't take off on you.

 

I strongly recommend training the recall using positive methods. No matter how frustrated or justified you feel, never punish the dog when she finally comes. This is a sure fire way to have life long problems with getting a reliable recall. Your dog is still very young. With puppies I tend to keep treats (usually just kibble) in a pocket or near by so I can both praise and treat when my puppy comes. I also try very hard not to call the puppy unless I am pretty sure she is going to come or I can easily get her attention/stop her from moving away. That is where a long line comes in very handy so I can step on it or pick it up and encourage the pup to me with some gentle tugs. Be lots of fun when your puppy gets to you. Be someone she wants to be around and likes to go to.

 

After reading a recent post, I tried the walking down, but it just turned into a slow chase instead of a fast one, with her waiting until the last moment to jump up and dash off.

 

Yes, she was having fun still. It is always interesting to see when the walk down no longer becomes fun for the dog. At that point they may become unsure and it is important to stay non emotional. If they come to you reward them and act happy about the good choice they (finally) made. If they let you come to them, snap on a leash, take them back to where they were when you first called them and do the recall on leash this time. Lots of praise when they come. Say nothing until you have them in place and call them.

 

How do you go about physically punishing a dog? Rolled up newspaper? It seems to us that there should be some kind of severe punishment in these instances, that would only have to be administered once or twice before the dog would really get the picture. But we really don't want to harm her, of course, or make her mean, so thought we should ask some advice.

 

I'm glad you are asking and that you want to avoid making her mean or hurting her. Please be very careful with using punishment and for that matter please be careful with taking advice over the Internet (yes, that includes me). None of us are there to see your pup and you interact. None of us are there to see how you are using physical punishment and how your pup is reacting. I would never recommend hitting a dog with a rolled up newspaper or any object. In fact, I don't recommend hitting a dog, period. I certainly don't recommend kicking a dog. For the puppy nonsense of nipping/grabbing you are describing, I will get hold of the dog and let her know in a growly voice that I don't like the behavior. I will also try to redirect the puppy to different, approved behavior -- such as a toy to chew or playing fetch with me. If the pup can't settle down with the nipping/grabbing after I've let her know how unhappy I am with her behavior, I take that as a sign she needs to take a break from unstructured time and I put her in her crate. 9 times out of 10, a puppy will fall asleep in those moments.

 

Sadie is a wonderful little puppy, with a great disposition, and I have no doubt that there is a way to train out these behaviors. We just want to nip them in the bud before they become a big problem. Any suggestions?

 

Yes, a couple of suggestions. First keep telling yourself that Sadie is a puppy at an age many find frustrating and be patient as you train her. Second is you understand that a well behaved dog is one who understands limits and expectations but there are lots of very effective ways to train without resorting to hitting, yelling at, and frightening a puppy. Connie Cleveland, a well known obedience trainer says that dogs obey for three reasons 1. They find it reinforcing 2. They find not obeying to be aversive and 3. It is habit for them. Connie believes -- and I totally agree -- that the third reason, habit, is the most important of the three. You get that habit through ongoing training, management (not allowing the dog to practice unwanted behavior) and consistency. If you use too much punishment, even consistently, you may end up with a dog who is frightened, lacking confidence and not trusting you which doesn't sound like the kind of relationship you want to have with your puppy.

 

I like to teach leave it through a method called "Puppy Zen." Google it or search on these boards and you should be able to get a good description of this approach. I use heel and here as commands and my dogs are fine because of the very different context. It sounds like you need to work on heeling or loose leash walking with distractions. Again Google or search on these boards for "loose leash walking" and you should get some good ideas.

[FourO'clockRanch]

Thanks to everyone for all the advice, tips, and ideas! I am excited about continuing to work with Sadie.

Are you familiar with clicker training? Or using a "marker word" to mark behaviours that you like? A lot of people do clicker train their dogs, so it would be helpful to know if you're familiar with the terms.

No, I am not. I read a couple of clicker training articles recently, and found them a bit confusing, but I am interested in learning more about the method. What is a clicker?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like at this point you're not really look for a competition heel, but really just want your pup to walk on a loose leash.

That's right--I would just like her to walk nicely beside me. I did a bit of searching on it and might do more later. Is this something that we can teach her to do off leash too? (more or less habitually) I expect that that would take a lot of time.

Thanks again,

Annelise

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

No, I am not. I read a couple of clicker training articles recently, and found them a bit confusing, but I am interested in learning more about the method. What is a clicker?

 

Ok, here is a good link on clicker training;

http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training

A clicker is pretty much a little hand held device that when pressed, pushes down a piece of metal. The sound it makes is similar to the sound a bottle cap makes when you press in the centre. (like the lipton iced tea bottles with the metal caps). You would use a click to mark a desired behaviour and then reward the dog with a food treat. So, if you ask for a sit, you would click the second her butt hits the floor and then treat. (Most people will type c/t meaning click and treat) Once you are getting the desired behaviour all the time you can gradually fade out the c/t.

That link should be pretty helpful since there are videos and everything. It's a great way to train and most dogs really seem to enjoy it! Granted it's not the only method, but since I started using a clicker I've found training a lot easier.

[Root Beer]

No, I am not. I read a couple of clicker training articles recently, and found them a bit confusing, but I am interested in learning more about the method. What is a clicker?

 

Clicker training can be really confusing until you see it in action. Clickertraining.com has a new feature - short instruction videos. Some are dogs and some are not!

 

Some you have to pay for, but there area bunch of free ones. The free ones can be found here:

 

http://www.clickertraining.tv/subject.html?cat=free

 

If you are interested in checking out what's available for purchase, you can find them all here:

 

http://www.clickertraining.tv/

 

ETA:

 

I recommend starting with this one.

 

http://www.clickertraining.tv/product.html?item=FREE-01

[Ninso]

That's right--I would just like her to walk nicely beside me. I did a bit of searching on it and might do more later. Is this something that we can teach her to do off leash too? (more or less habitually) I expect that that would take a lot of time.

 

Of course! But yes, it will take time, more or less depending on the dog. In this case, you'd be teaching the dog to maintain a particular position in relation to your body in contrast to loose-leash walking where you are most of the time just teaching the dog not to pull on the leash--of course, you could also teach the dog to maintain a certain position on leash and if you do this it will probably be easier to teach off-leash, but this will take more time than simply teaching the dog not to pull.

[FourO'clockRanch]

Thankyou for all the links. The clicker training method is much clearer to me now. It sure looks like it works well! I'm ordering a couple of clickers and some training info.

Thanks again, everybody, for all the help! I think we're making alot of headway with Sadie.

Annelise