We NEED a BC NOW!

[TAC2]

Yesterday I get a call at work from an aggravated DH telling me the sheep have been blowing through the electric fence. He had managed to put them back twice with grain, but on the third escape, one ewe didn’t feel like cooperating. I leave work and rush home to spend twenty exhausting and dirty minutes getting the runaway into a stall. We switched out the chargers (need to replace this one) repaired the escape spot and cleared all brush/grass away from the lower strand. Figuring all is secure now, we let rogue ewe out of the stall to be with the others. This ewe made a beeline to the fence, dropped her head so the fully fleeced portion is against the wire and pushed right through it. We immediately head off the other two, spend another twenty minutes getting them in the stall and go after PITA ewe. At this point the completely disgusted DH informs me "we need to get a *%$@#!! Border Collie NOW." If I hadn’t been so tired and aggravated myself, I would have been ROFLMAO, since up to this point, his attitude has been, if you want one, then get one, but is it really necessary? I didn’t bother to explain that it will take some training time for a youngster if we don’t luck into a retired trial dog

 

Heading out now to build a catch pen in the pasture for this ewe until she has her spring lambs, then it’s off to a new home w/o electric fence for her. Up to now, I really liked this ewe, but with all electric pastures, (perimeter is woven wire) I can’t have her destroy fencing or worse, teaching the others how to do it.

 

Such is life on a farm...

 

~ Tru

Laingcroft

[Bill Fosher]

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Head out there now with the sharpest knife you have! Or with a one-way ticket to the stockyard! This ewe, and her offspring, will be nothing but trouble for as long as they are on the farm.

 

If you want to read what can happen if you keep this kind of ewe in a farm that has a railroad track near it, read this: http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=11412#11412

[mbc1963]

Good Lord, that's why I could never be a farmer.

 

Mary

[TAC2]

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Head out there now with the sharpest knife you have! Or with a one-way ticket to the stockyard! This ewe, and her offspring, will be nothing but trouble for as long as they are on the farm.

 

If you want to read what can happen if you keep this kind of ewe in a farm that has a railroad track near it, read this: http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=11412#11412

 

Luckily there are no train tracks anywhere nearby! This ewe also does not bother the regular fencing or hog panels, which is what I have just finished putting together to contain her for a few months. She just managed to figure out how to get out of the electric fence, which is all of our cross fencing, to go walkabout. It probably wouldn't have happened at all if we knew that our fence charger had called it quits. The other two sheep do not have much or any fleece on their heads so as soon as their noses get zapped, they back right off. The problem is this ewe busted the lower two wires (electrified twine from Premier) and the other two sashayed out behind her. BTW, I chose this twine over HT wire so it would break in the event a panicked animal got hung up in it. She is also the most laid back and docile ewe, NOT the flock leader - which makes this really hard to understand. There is plenty of grass and water in the pasture and nothing was bothering or chasing her that I could see, she just decided to go walkabout. I guess she felt the grass in the opposite pasture (25 feet across the driveway) was better. They didn't go far, but they didn't want to go back either. Ironically, they kept running back up to the "busted" fence, but refused to go back through it - go figure. It was hubby and I trying to herd them back up the drive to the barn so we could fix the fence that took forever.

 

The really funny part (now, not so much at the time) was the hubby! He's normally a go with the flow, "whatever" and "yes dear" kind of guy. Even though my logic sometimes escapes him, (and vice versa : ) he didn't care one way or another if I brought home a BC. Now, to see him mumbling, swearing and practically demanding that I go get a herding dog NOW, was a hoot. (He'd seen them at trials and demos.)

[Shoofly]

Why don't you shear her head/neck area so the fence will get her?

[Bill Fosher]

Why don't you shear her head/neck area so the fence will get her?

 

That would also make my suggestion easier

[bcnewe2]

Why don't you shear her head/neck area so the fence will get her

 

My toughts exactly!

 

We had the same issue but it was our perimeter fencing. Barbed wire. Up to 8 strands. Thing is that I now know, we were doing it on the wrong side of the fence, I knew that then but to do the other side would have been on the neighbors prop. and clearing jungle overgrowth. Thought it wouldn't matter with all the strands. It did. I had 2 ewes that would lead the bunch. We did as Bill suggested then added one strand of hotwire close to the ground with a really strong charger. Never happened again.

I will say it made a sheep dog out of my Sat. afternoon dog. Plus I didn't own one t-shirt that didn't have a tiny hole in the back of the neck area from climbing under the fence. It was so bad that my neighbors bought a swimming pool ladder for me at a garage sale cause they felt sorry watching me climb though the fence.

 

Poor DH had to deal with our issues without the advantage of a good dog. I'd leave for the weekends to go trial, or play with friends away from here and all I'd leave him with was the old starter dogs that didn't do much. Did make him help with fencing quicker than had he had a good dog!

 

Lets not even talk about why they call a cattle guard that's across my driveway a cattleguard and not a sheepguard! We bought a drive though electric gate to fix that problem!

 

Good luck

[Bill Fosher]

She is also the most laid back and docile ewe, NOT the flock leader - which makes this really hard to understand.

 

If the others followed her through the fence, she's the leader.

 

Perhaps this is an attitude problem on my part, but I don't want sheep that have to be treated as individuals. If a ewe doesn't work in my management scheme and needs a special pen built, extra feed, etc., she's out of my flock. Tru, I've complained elsewhere about the negative effects of the fiber fancy on productive sheep breeds, and this is where it starts. Making exceptions for bad sheep because of one good trait (often related the fleece, but just as often related to cuteness or sentimental value) is the beginning of the end of a sheep enterprise and a breed.

 

One of the things I learned early on is that it takes about the same amount of time to look after 10 sheep as it does to look after 100, provided that the 10 and the 100 are decent animals that have been selected for thrift under my management. If you have one fence-buster, she can raise your time and stress levels associated with your flock exponentially, or you can do as you're doing and make her into her own separate flock, which will mean that you spend as much time tending her as you would tending 10 or 100 others. This doesn't even take into consideration the stress she's placed under by virtue of being separated from her flockmates.

 

"Wait a doggone minute, Fosher," I hear you saying. "You're worried about her stress levels? You recommended killing her in your original post on this subject, and now you're worried about her stress?"

 

Yep. Slaughter lasts a few seconds. Tru's talking about keeping this sheep penned up for months by itself. Inevitably she will try something stupid -- climbing out of the pen, or trying to jump. She will either hurt herself or make herself sick with worry. At the very least, give her a fellow captive. But seriously, all things considered, why do you want to keep a ewe that needs individual attention and the resources (your time being the most valuable) involved in individual penning? Get rid of her, and get ten good ones in her place. You'll do less work and get more lamb and wool.

[sandra s.]

LINK

[TAC2]

Hi Bill:

 

I don't mind your advice at all --- sounds like years of practical experience there. But ultimately, we all have to make and live with our own decisions. I'm not going to slaughter this ewe right now for several reasons, least of which is this is the busiest time of year for our slaughter guy. It would be several weeks before we would be on the schedule so I still have to contain and deal with the ewe no matter what. And NO , before you suggest it, I'm too much of a wimp to do it myself!

 

Her pen is in the center of the pasture, so her buddies are right there too. Another dilemma is the flock only numbers three, so someone is going to be unhappy no matter what I do. I'll try putting one of the goats in with her.

 

The effect of three as opposed to five or more may have something to do with the flock dynamics. Yes, they followed her out, but the leader sheep wouldn't cross that barrier to get back in. She knew that was were wandering ewe got out and kept leading the others back to it, but she wasn't crossing that barrier at all --- so the other two, including the escape artist, refused to go in either. Which is good, because we didn't want them going through the fence anyway. However, it was tough to convince them to leave that spot and go back up the drive to the barn. Man, I wanted a dog before, but I REALLY appreciate now exactly how useful they can be.

 

I want to keep any ewe lamb(s) from this ewe x ram breeding. I don't believe it is a heritable trait, but a learned one. If she doesn't have the opportunity to teach her lambs this nifty trick, then they should be fine. Males will be sold as locker lambs and if ultimately necessary, mom too. But I feel I have to give her the opportunity to go to someone with regular fence too.

 

Shoofly and bcnewe2: Yup, she's getting a hair cut! She is the lone fuzzy head in the bunch. I am focusing on BFL, BL and Coopworth (clean headed/faced type) sheep, so there won't be any more fuzzy heads in the future either!

[Debbie Meier]

I'll try putting one of the goats in with her.

 

Hi, what type of goats do you have? Putting one of the goats in with her without the rest could get you on the road to having goats that jump or climb out.

 

Deb

[Pearse]

Here's my two cents worth about Border Collies, sheep, and electronet. To work sheep easily around electronet you need a really good dog and really cooperative sheep. If the dog is wrong or pushes on sheep a little too much around any kind of fence, sheep will put their head down and try to go over or through the nearest fence. With electronet - through is the preferred method. A length of electronet costs more than a sheep is worth.

 

In addition, it sounds like you have three or four sheep. It takes a really good dog to bring in an errant single who isn't of a mind to cooperate. It's easier than with no dog, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's going to take more than a bit of training.

 

I keep about 50 ewes and lambs over the summer solely in electronet and live 15 miles from where the sheep are. Any perennial escape artists are fixed using the Fosher Technique.

 

Pearse

[juliepoudrier]

Pearse makes a good point about electronet, uncooperative sheep, and working dogs.

 

I also wanted to add that I am of the mind that if a sheep makes a lot of trouble, it needs to leave here. I had a ewe last year--good mother, nice lamb, etc.--who was a real PIA in the small mixing paddock (where the ewes with baby lambs go before going back out to the main flock). She was horrible about ramming the other ewes (and their lambs) away from the feed bunks, even though there were multiple bunks and more than enough space for everyone at them--to the point where I had to take a dog every morning (usually in the dark), separate her out (no easy task because she knew I wanted to sort her off from everyone else and so she'd park herself in the center of the group), and then pen her up by herself to eat, which of course meant going back out later to let her out (the only "easy" part about it was that the paddock was behind the barn, so at least I already had barn stalls there for confining that witch). I did a lot of cussing over that ewe last spring. My sheep are a rare breed, so all individuals are somewhat valuable to the gene pool, and this ewe did produce good lambs and was a good mother, BUT she made A LOT of extra work for me, and I decided it really wasn't worth it. Even as I was loading her to send her down the road, I had second thoughts, but then she tried to run me over rather than go on the trailer, nearly breaking my ankle, and I realized that my decision was a correct one. What she cost me in time and effort every morning for weeks just wasn't worth it. Of course, you can choose otherwise, because you have so few sheep, the labor intensiveness might not seem so great, but remember that your time is money too, and the more time you have to spend dealing with one animal is less time that you can spend on the other money-making efforts your farm requires. Just something to keep in mind. If she has a fleece to die for, keep her genetics in her lambs (if they don't learn her bad habits from her), cull her, and save her pelt and have it tanned into a beautiful hide. That's what I'd do.

 

J.

[TAC2]

In addition, it sounds like you have three or four sheep. It takes a really good dog to bring in an errant single who isn't of a mind to cooperate. It's easier than with no dog, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's going to take more than a bit of training.

 

I keep about 50 ewes and lambs over the summer solely in electronet and live 15 miles from where the sheep are. Any perennial escape artists are fixed using the Fosher Technique.

 

Pearse

 

Too funny...the Fosher Technique

 

Thanks for the information on electronet and herding, I'll have to keep that in mind. Actually, the electronet is our pasture division fence, the pasture perimeter is a combination of horseguard tape (pastures were originally set up for horses) and Premier intellitwine/rope - perimeter property boundary fence is woven wire cattle fencing. With our sheep the value of the sheep is three to four times the price of the electronet. These are registered purebred woolies and my foundation sheep. They carry NZ genetics in the case of the Corries and some top Imported AI genetics in the BFL ram. I agree that any animal that is going to cause me physical damage is going to the "Fosher Technique," but I'm willing to give this girl a chance because she is so good otherwise.

 

Came home today to find everyone grazing contentedly. The escapee ewe was happily munching away in her pen (64'x16'pen of hog panels, plus add'l 12'x12' run-in stall.) The others were happily grazing near her. It is also the high point of the pasture so she can see the others wherever they go. Everyone is put up in the run-in at night (from dusk to morning) during hunting season, so they are together all night too. She doesn't seem stressed at all and isn't challenging any of the panels in her pen. Since the grass is dying back, everyone is starting to get hay now, so the work isn't all that much extra. No more than when the boys are separated from the girls during the summer and I have two areas to cover. Things might be different if I had hundreds of head and more acreage to cover.

 

As for a dog getting an errant ewe, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that once the dog works the sheep alot, they get "broke" and tend to run to the shepherd for safety. I understood this is also the most common BC style of working - gathering rather than driving. Since these sheep are somewhat lead trained, once they are close to me I can get a lead on and problem solved. The difficulty the other day was being unable to get close enough to the ewe to "leash" her and her lack of cooperation with hubby and I trying to "drive" her. I think it was because the others were already in the stall, she couldn't see them and panicked...sheep brain disconnect.

 

We were in a corridor formed by the driveway between two pastures and finally managed to get her up with a combination of lunge whip to "extend" my arm to the side and a hog panel behind her, pushing her up the drive to the run-in. Let me tell you, hog panels get really heavy going uphill for 150+ feet!

[TAC2]

She was horrible about ramming the other ewes (and their lambs) away from the feed bunks, even though there were multiple bunks and more than enough space for everyone at them--to the point where I had to take a dog every morning (usually in the dark), separate her out (no easy task because she knew I wanted to sort her off from everyone else and so she'd park herself in the center of the group), and then pen her up by herself to eat, which of course meant going back out later to let her out (the only "easy" part about it was that the paddock was behind the barn, so at least I already had barn stalls there for confining that witch).

J.

 

Julie:

 

I had a goat like that once. She was right tasty.

 

T.

[Lenajo]

I think this sounds like a right useful ewe.

 

#1 she has trained your spouse to understand the need for a Border Collie.

 

#2 you are learning the value of better fencing at the same time.

 

I say once you get your dog and your good fence, you sell this valuable ewe to the next shepherd(ess) who is in need of spouse committment to good dog and better fencing.