Getting Started

[Sarah_42]

I am unsure if this is in the correct place ...

 

I am hoping to do herding with my Border Collie, who is currently 5 months. I know we have to wait till he is 6 months old to get his HIC, and I plan on doing so. I am thinking about taking it seriously, and realize it is tons upon tons of work. I do not live on a farm or have regular access to one. The only practice we would get is when we would go for lessons.

 

What are some commands you would recommend that my pup know before he goes on sheep? What commands should he absolutely have down pat?

 

Thank you, and any information on herding you feel like throwing in is more than welcome. I want to learn as much as possible!

[stockdogranch]

Hi, Sarah, and welcome to the boards!

 

Well, you'll hear different things from different people as far as what a trainer likes to have a pup know before it sees stock. Generally, it doesn't matter a whole lot, as whatever commands a pup has when it sees stock for the first time will, if the pup is worth its salt as far as instinct goes, pretty much go out the window, at least for a short bit. However, when I first take a pup to stock, I like the pup to know its name and have a pretty reliable recall. Again, it will forget it on stock initially, but after the first session or so, it will make life much easier. If the pup can walk calmly on a leash without pulling, in the face of really tempting stuff, so much the better, too. I personally like a pup to have an understanding of lie down, too, but lots of folks prefer not to have that. Certainly a 5 month old pup is old enough for all that basic stuff. Mostly, the pup just needs to know who is in charge.

 

Ok, so here comes the hard part--I would not concern myself with an HIC--it is merely a piece of paper that means essentially nothing. It is designed to make money for the organization which awards it, but as far as meaning that the dog really has abilities, well, it really doesn't. Trust me--I've been around all these organizations for a long time, and know what "passes" an HIC. In fact, I know that I could have passed an HIC with my ex's mother's Yorkie, who would chase after the sheep and yip at them. They would move because they just didn't know what the hell was after them. But was it work? Definitely not.

 

Do your research for a trainer. If you are serious about learning to work a dog, then you will want to make sure you are working with someone who trains to the Open level of USBCHA trials. If you are working with someone who has only put "titles" on a dog, then you truly will not go far at all.

 

The best place to learn a lot is to find some trials in your area (search the USBCHA website for upcoming trials), and go and watch. Talk to the handlers (just not right before their runs). Read through the training sections and the politics sections on the boards here (dig back through some of the old stuff, too), as there is a ton of great information on here.

 

Have fun!

 

A

[Lizmo]

I'm not an expert by any means, so take my advice with a grain of sand on herding issues right now. I'm very much a newbie

 

I have a 7 month old pup that I, too, plan on training in herding. Right now he knows, Here, Lie Down, Walk up, and That'll Do. I don't plan on teaching him anything else before we start training (is there anything left to train before geting on stock? lol)

 

His "that'll do" is a bit shaky, and I need to slow his "walk up" down a bit. But otherwise I think commands wise, he's ready to go.

 

So to answer your question, I would teach a lie down, here, that'll do, and if you just want to a "walk up".

[stockdogranch]

Right now he knows, Here, Lie Down, Walk up,

 

Walk up to what? I would leave that one totally alone. The "walk up" in stock work means for the dog to walk directly to the stock from wherever he is. If there are no stock in the picture, it means nothing. Also, trying to get him to slow down his walk up again means nothing. When a dog is walking up on (stationary) stock and/or walking behind stock and moving them, the speed or pace at which the dog moves is relative to the dog's power (as received by the stock) and the pressure the stock are giving off to the dog. There is no arbitrary speed which is just the "approved" speed. It is totally dependent on the dog and stock relationship. With no stock in the picture, there is no relationship.

 

So, I would stick to a good recall, maybe a lie down, and "that'll do" as a universal "stop whatever you're doing" release command (for instance, to release the down). I have seen people over the years try to teach all kinds of stockwork commands with no stock present (as in flanks and such), and it really just confuses the dog. It will all make sense when the dog is on stock. Really.

 

A

[MagRam]

Okay I am going to jump in here with a bit of my own experiencs.

 

First Anna (stockdogranch) has given you very good advice. Although she is too modest to brag here she is an excellent trainer and you could do far worse. If you are in Southern California you should consider working with her. If you are in SoCal and you ever want to work cattle she is the best in the area. She's pretty good on sheep also.

 

I agree with her on the HIC but if you want to get it go ahead.

 

Depending on what you want to do your selection of a trainer is very important. If you just want to do certain non-USBCHA style trials with thise "other" organizations your options for a trainer will be wider. Your challenge will also be less and - IMO - less rewarding. But""" you will still be doing something many don't or can't with their dogs.

 

To use a baseball analogy USBCHA trainers are essentially the major league trainers. They are very capable of training you and your dog for all other organizations as well as USBCHA. Many AKC/AHBA/ASCA trainers simply are not capable of progressing you beyond their organizations events. Some ar but many or not. If the promo and website is all about how many "titles" they have put on dogs they are simply not concentrating on training people for USBCHA. They may be very good but there are likely limitations.

 

Anna suggested asking if the trainer has ever trained a dog to "open" level - an excellent question but I might add a couple more. BTW "open" level is the highest USBCHA level. I would ask about what trial success they have had in open, have they ever made it to the Nationals, Meeker, Soldier Hollow, Bluegrass or a few other major trials. Have any of their students made it to open ? If it is something that interests you do they take dogs in for training ?

 

Ultimately the "fit" between trainer, yopu and the dog is very personal. The same trainer that works for you may not work for your best friend. The trainer that works for one of your dogs may not work for your other dog. Try to assess your learning style. Do you like to get specific exercises for specific tasks or do you prefer a more generalized approach.

 

I agree with Anna - go to a couple USBCHA trials. I would go to some local fun trials if they have them in your area. They are more relaxed than the big competitions. If they have a novice class so much the better. Watch for someone whose handling and dog you like. Ask them who they train with or if they train themself. Even most of the open trainers are still training at least occasionally with someone else If their trainer is also at the trial - very possible - watch the trainer also and the interaction between trainer and student. If it's a "big hat" ask who they would recommend in your area.

 

Then try out a couple and see who fits you and your dog.

 

Finally say goodbye to your weekends because it is very easy to get hooked.

[MagRam]

Okay I am going to jump in here with a bit of my own experiencs.

 

First Anna (stockdogranch) has given you very good advice. Although she is too modest to brag here she is an excellent trainer and you could do far worse. If you are in Southern California you should consider working with her. If you are in SoCal and you ever want to work cattle she is the best in the area. She's pretty good on sheep also.

 

I agree with her on the HIC but if you want to get it go ahead.

 

Depending on what you want to do your selection of a trainer is very important. If you just want to do certain non-USBCHA style trials with thise "other" organizations your options for a trainer will be wider. Your challenge will also be less and - IMO - less rewarding. But""" you will still be doing something many don't or can't with their dogs.

 

To use a baseball analogy USBCHA trainers are essentially the major league trainers. They are very capable of training you and your dog for all other organizations as well as USBCHA. Many AKC/AHBA/ASCA trainers simply are not capable of progressing you beyond their organizations events. Some ar but many or not. If the promo and website is all about how many "titles" they have put on dogs they are simply not concentrating on training people for USBCHA. They may be very good but there are likely limitations.

 

Anna suggested asking if the trainer has ever trained a dog to "open" level - an excellent question but I might add a couple more. BTW "open" level is the highest USBCHA level. I would ask about what trial success they have had in open, have they ever made it to the Nationals, Meeker, Soldier Hollow, Bluegrass or a few other major trials. Have any of their students made it to open ? If it is something that interests you do they take dogs in for training ?

 

Ultimately the "fit" between trainer, yopu and the dog is very personal. The same trainer that works for you may not work for your best friend. The trainer that works for one of your dogs may not work for your other dog. Try to assess your learning style. Do you like to get specific exercises for specific tasks or do you prefer a more generalized approach.

 

I agree with Anna - go to a couple USBCHA trials. I would go to some local fun trials if they have them in your area. They are more relaxed than the big competitions. If they have a novice class so much the better. Watch for someone whose handling and dog you like. Ask them who they train with or if they train themself. Even most of the open trainers are still training at least occasionally with someone else If their trainer is also at the trial - very possible - watch the trainer also and the interaction between trainer and student. If it's a "big hat" ask who they would recommend in your area.

 

Then try out a couple and see who fits you and your dog.

 

Edit to add - don't worry too much about specific commands before going to stock. You want a well mannered dog but not too obedient. I have watched Anna give many instinct tests to obedience trained dogs and very often the dog has been so obedience trained that the first time in with livestock it thinks it is going to get in trouble if it does anything too much fun.

 

Finally say goodbye to your weekends because it is very easy to get hooked.

[Pippin's person]

One other thing--pups change enormously over the course of the first couple of years. A pup who seems perfect at 7 mos might not have enough "oomph" when the tasks become more challenging. Similarly, a pup who shows little interest at 6 mos might come on like gangbusters at a year or older.

 

That's another reason that the HIC won't necessarily tell you what you might wish to know about his abilities. There's nothing wrong with getting it as long as you are realistic about what it does or doesn't tell you. My young dog would not have "passed" an HI test at 6 mos (or 9 mos or 12 mos), but he is coming along now and will be competing in his first USBCHA novice trial in a couple of weeks (unless I get cold feet).

 

Also, be prepared for much of what *you* think *you* know about dogs and dog training to go into a tailspin. Seriously. It's a great, great ride but not like anything else many "dog" folks have done with their dogs or learned for themselves.

 

And MagRan is right--say so long to week-ends (or rather, say hello to a new kind of week-end)

[Laurae]

Also, be prepared for much of what *you* think *you* know about dogs and dog training to go into a tailspin. Seriously. It's a great, great ride but not like anything else many "dog" folks have done with their dogs or learned for themselves.

 

Truer words were never spoken.

[Pearse]

One other thing--pups change enormously over the course of the first couple of years. A pup who seems perfect at 7 mos might not have enough "oomph" when the tasks become more challenging. Similarly, a pup who shows little interest at 6 mos might come on like gangbusters at a year or older.

 

That's another reason that the HIC won't necessarily tell you what you might wish to know about his abilities. There's nothing wrong with getting it as long as you are realistic about what it does or doesn't tell you.

 

There is something wrong with getting an HIC. First of all, it's a fraud. It will tell you nothing useful about whether your dog has what it takes to be a decent stockdog. It pretends to certify something it does not and there are some idiots out there who take an HIC as proof that their dog is a "working dog" and therefore worthy of breeding. They may know this is BS. They may be too stupid to know that it's BS. Either way it gives them cover.

 

Second, it puts money in the pockets of an organization that is helping to ruin purebred dogs. Frankly, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem and every penny you give the AKC in buying phony certificates and titles, or entering AKC sponsored events is another penny they can use to do what they do. Rationalize it any way you want, but that's the bottom line.

 

You don't need a certificate to tell if your dog can work stock. It'll be plain as the nose on your face when you actually see it happen for the first time. When the dog goes from chasing sheep around the round pen to actually working them, you'll realize it. Even that won't tell if he'll be any good at it. That'll take a whole lot more investment in time or effort and the judgement of people who know a lot more about dogs and stock than you or I.

 

Pearse

[Sarah_42]

Thank you everyone for your replies, I appreciate them.

 

Based on what has been said, I am not going to bother taking him in for his HIC, no sense in wasting good money that can be used for lessons after!

 

I have managed to locate a highly recommended trainer. Sue Jewell, she is a CKC judge for herding and has students for her own, etc. She comes recommended from training facilities, my trainer I am with now for Moko, and fellow dog owners.

 

Since Moko is only 5 months old, I have decided that I will not bring him in for herding lessons till he is about 10-11 months. In the meantime I was thinking about putting him in a training class for Companion Dog so we have something to work on and refine his obedience skills. We might even trial to obtain the title. This couldn't possibly hurt him in the herding could it?

 

Also, while I was looking around to see what my options are for trainers, I located a seminar that will be taking place only a couple hours from here. It is a One Day Intro to Herding. I thought it would be great to attend to learn and meet fellow beginners like myself!

 

In the meantime, I will keep doing more research and try and locate some herding trials to gain more knowledge, and I am sure I will be back with more questions!

[stockdogranch]

OK... Based on what you've told us, you are Canadian? Is your dog a Border Collie? CBCA registered?

 

OK, so I'm going to sound like the nasty person again here (somebody's got to do it. And I don't say all this to be nasty, really, just in hopes to educate you)...I ask because there is a big difference in working-bred Border Collies and those bred for show (my understanding is that there is only one registry in Canada for BCs, right? But that it's a 2-tiered system that separates working bred from show bred?). Anyway, anything that has "Kennel Club" in its name, or if that is the association one judges for, usually means that the organization does what we tend to refer to as "pretend herding." By that I mean that the level of work expected of the dogs is mediocre at best, when compared to real work for the BC. Read through what MagRam said about other organizations. He's absolutely right. Most of these organizations are designed to reward mediocre work of "all the herding breeds" and their big thing is to award "titles." If that is the case, which it seems to be, as a quick google search of your trainer shows that she is a Sheltie person, then if you are really interested in learning to work a Border Collie, then you should continue looking for a trainer who works with working-bred Border Collies. Tell us where you are located, and we'll help you find somebody.

 

As for the title you mention, I have no idea what a companion dog title means, so have no idea what that would do for a dog who hopes to work stock. If it is a discipline that encourages your dog to look at you all the time, I would suggest against it. A stockdog needs its focus on the stock, not on you.

 

Sorry to be the wet blanket yet again.

 

A

[MagRam]

OK... Based on what you've told us, you are Canadian? Is your dog a Border Collie? CBCA registered?

 

OK, so I'm going to sound like the nasty person again here (somebody's got to do it. And I don't say all this to be nasty, really, just in hopes to educate you)...I ask because there is a big difference in working-bred Border Collies and those bred for show (my understanding is that there is only one registry in Canada for BCs, right? But that it's a 2-tiered system that separates working bred from show bred?). Anyway, anything that has "Kennel Club" in its name, or if that is the association one judges for, usually means that the organization does what we tend to refer to as "pretend herding." By that I mean that the level of work expected of the dogs is mediocre at best, when compared to real work for the BC. Read through what MagRam said about other organizations. He's absolutely right. Most of these organizations are designed to reward mediocre work of "all the herding breeds" and their big thing is to award "titles." If that is the case, which it seems to be, as a quick google search of your trainer shows that she is a Sheltie person, then if you are really interested in learning to work a Border Collie, then you should continue looking for a trainer who works with working-bred Border Collies. Tell us where you are located, and we'll help you find somebody.

 

As for the title you mention, I have no idea what a companion dog title means, so have no idea what that would do for a dog who hopes to work stock. If it is a discipline that encourages your dog to look at you all the time, I would suggest against it. A stockdog needs its focus on the stock, not on you.

 

Sorry to be the wet blanket yet again.

 

A

 

 

I see Sue Jewell is listed at Ontario Border Collie Club so she may be a "Border Collie" person. I am sort of making the assumption from identifying SUe that you are in Ontario, Canada. If so just substitute ISDS style trials for USBCHA in my prior response. CKC would be equivalent to AKC in the states.. Many Border Collie people consider them the enemy or at best "pretend herding". If you have a working bred border colliethey will be capable of much more than will be required at AKC/CKC type trials.

 

You might try the Ontario Border Collie Club website for a list of trials in your area. It looks like there are trials in Ontario - not sure how close to you - the weekend of Oct 5-6 and Oct 11-12 (http://www.ontariobordercollieclub.com/trials.html). If you can make it to one of these trials it could be a great way to introduce yourself to the sport. Bring your pup they are almost always welcome and puppies are a big hit. People will fall over themselves offering you encouragement and recommendations.

 

Names I immediately recognize as top handlers who seem to be OBCC members include Amanda Milliken and Beverly Lambert.

 

I see Sue Jewell hosts one of their Fun Trials.

[Cynthia P]

Welcome to the boards and to your new herding dog.

 

I am over near Peterborough. Sue also has good BC's (as well as shelties) and does all breed training. The trials coming up are near Lindsay and also near Kingston in the next month.

 

don't worry about the HIC. You can take your BC at any time to see if she/he has interest in sheep. They really aren't ready to train until about 7-12 months (depending onthe dog). Before then we would be happy to have you come to trials, visit some of us at our trials, and I would welcome you to come out to Peterborough to play with one of my trained dogs so you can feel what it is like to start.

 

You'll be in good hands with Sue (for all of those that are worried)...we have 4 fun trials scheduled for the winter (anyone from the south want to come up for a little -10C herding?) that you are welcome to attend. Two are in the GTA and one is up at Sue's, one at my place.

 

Welcome! Enjoy the ride!

 

cynthia

[Sarah_42]

OK... Based on what you've told us, you are Canadian? Is your dog a Border Collie? CBCA registered?

 

OK, so I'm going to sound like the nasty person again here (somebody's got to do it. And I don't say all this to be nasty, really, just in hopes to educate you)...I ask because there is a big difference in working-bred Border Collies and those bred for show (my understanding is that there is only one registry in Canada for BCs, right? But that it's a 2-tiered system that separates working bred from show bred?). Anyway, anything that has "Kennel Club" in its name, or if that is the association one judges for, usually means that the organization does what we tend to refer to as "pretend herding." By that I mean that the level of work expected of the dogs is mediocre at best, when compared to real work for the BC. Read through what MagRam said about other organizations. He's absolutely right. Most of these organizations are designed to reward mediocre work of "all the herding breeds" and their big thing is to award "titles." If that is the case, which it seems to be, as a quick google search of your trainer shows that she is a Sheltie person, then if you are really interested in learning to work a Border Collie, then you should continue looking for a trainer who works with working-bred Border Collies. Tell us where you are located, and we'll help you find somebody.

 

As for the title you mention, I have no idea what a companion dog title means, so have no idea what that would do for a dog who hopes to work stock. If it is a discipline that encourages your dog to look at you all the time, I would suggest against it. A stockdog needs its focus on the stock, not on you.

 

Sorry to be the wet blanket yet again.

 

A

 

No, don't worry about being a 'wet blanket' I am glad you brought it up. I'm sorry about not being specific about details. I am in Ontario, Canada. The city of Barrie. Moko is not show bred, we purchased him from a farm. His father is a working herding dog on the farm, as well as his aunt. Moko is a Border Collie, and not registered with any organization.

 

Thank you very much for bringing the differences to my attention, I am going to keep that in mind.

 

Companion Dog (CD) title is a title in Obedience, focuses on off leash heeling, etc. So yes, it is lots of attention work and work that requires the dog to be at your side almost constantly.

[PSmitty]

Walk up to what? I would leave that one totally alone. The "walk up" in stock work means for the dog to walk directly to the stock from wherever he is. If there are no stock in the picture, it means nothing. Also, trying to get him to slow down his walk up again means nothing. When a dog is walking up on (stationary) stock and/or walking behind stock and moving them, the speed or pace at which the dog moves is relative to the dog's power (as received by the stock) and the pressure the stock are giving off to the dog. There is no arbitrary speed which is just the "approved" speed. It is totally dependent on the dog and stock relationship. With no stock in the picture, there is no relationship.

 

So, I would stick to a good recall, maybe a lie down, and "that'll do" as a universal "stop whatever you're doing" release command (for instance, to release the down). I have seen people over the years try to teach all kinds of stockwork commands with no stock present (as in flanks and such), and it really just confuses the dog. It will all make sense when the dog is on stock. Really.

 

A

 

I just had to en-earth this thread. In my boredom at work, I was surfing Youtube "herding" videos, and came across one on how to train flanking at home. Without stock. With a clicker.

 

Seriously, what the heck?