Mollie&Me Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I'm sure none of you remember me, but I remember some of you quite well. Probably a year (or maybe more...) ago, I had joined in a bid for help. So many of you answered all of my newbie questions and helped me to make a decision to train my youngest BC in herding. Oh, and we had a pretty fun time looking at tri-coloured pictures...of dogs that is! Unfortunately, I became a lurker and, due to serious time restraints (going back to University part time, house reno's, etc) was unable to take the first step towards my goal. Until my Mom, as a birthday present, kindly went behind my back and set up a training/interviewing session for me and Mollie. Just this past Saturday, July 19, Mollie, the b-day present perpetrator and I went out to Ken MacKenzie's place to see what the Moo could do. We spent FOUR hours out there!!! We talked for a good bit and then Ken went over some obedience with Mollie and I. People, I am a little ashamed to say that, while I thought my dog was very well trained (her behaviour is sometimes another issue entirely lol) it looks like I was under a misconception. She was in a new environment, kids and cats running all over the place (neither of which she has any exposure to on her own turf) and would not hold a sit for the life of her when I walked away. I have trained stays with a hand command, and Ken explained something to me that I feel stupid not to have realized before: a sit is a sit. Once the dog sits, they shouldn't release until given the command. No 'stay' necessary. Doh, of course. We worked on distance sits for a good two hours. I have always trained primarily with exuberant praise, and occasionally with treats. Ken's methods were different - he had me put pressure on Mollie with my body in conjunction with pops from the lead. I'm used to popping my dog, that was no big deal. But I've never gotten physical with her in training, and I found it very difficult. At one point, she got so very frustrated (all of a sudden mom's being very strict and intimidating which is not at all like her and I want to go run after that cat and those kids and Why Are You Making Me Do This?!?!) that when I went to nudge her back into position with my foot she wrapped her little front feet around my calf and put her teeth on me. She didn't bite, but she knocked her front teeth into my leg. I was shocked!!! My dog has never, ever reacted this way!!! After a scolding, we got back on track. Ask her to sit, walk away, she'd hold for a bit, stand, ask her to sit, she wouldn't, go to her. Arggggg. I'd go to her and she'd kind of cringe away from me to lay on her side. "You can accept that" Ken would tell me. Walk away. Ken would point out how her ears were perked right up, even after the teeth incident and my subsequent harsh scolding, but I honestly felt like she was closing down on me. Maybe I don't know how to read my dog as well as I thought...at one point, I went over to her, gave her a big love and said to Ken "I think she is finished". He convinced me to keep working on it, until she'd literally hold herself back from the need to stand and walk away. Ears up and attentive the whole time. (HA, Tiffany you sucker) Afterward, he told me he was surprised that I almost stopped at that point. I think that the whole idea was a big test to evaluate Tiffany, not Mollie (in which case maybe I didn't pass...*sigh*), but boy, did I ever learn that I am Not Tough Enough on her, and she knows exactly what buttons to push. That was the big lesson of the night. Finally, we went in with the sheep. About twelve head, in a large pen. Not quite what I was expecting, but I'm flexible [side Bar: I forgot the camera. CRUD. My regrets know no bounds, believe me. I would've loved to have seen it from a distance] At his request, I let Mollie off of the lead and Ken told me to walk towards the sheep to get her attention on them. For the first thirty seconds or so, everything else was more interesting, particularly the sheep poop. I pointed towards the flock and said "Go get the sheep Mollie!" and off she went, bark bark bark barking behind them. Until the sheep, as a unit, turned towards Ken and I. [side Bar 2: Mom goes dashing for the fence to our laughter - it's a little hard to be intimidated by sheep after five green-broke horses have raced head on towards you for years) I've read about the 'click'. But man, it was nothing like seeing it. A.Maz.Ing. Mollie stopped barking and suddenly she was a 30lb bullet of instinct. Two of the sheep wandered off from the main group and she ran over to them and drove them back into the flock. It was pandemonium and from such a close distance I was unable to really witness it, but afterward Ken said that she circled behind and to the left of them as we moved in a typical move to get them back to us. She has it. But most importantly, the dog I brought home that night was incredibly content and low-key, seeming to radiate a sense of well-being. Now I just have to bring it. We'll hopefully be heading out to Drayton Valley (did I mention it's an hour and a half drive one way?) again this Saturday. Oh, and this time I'm bringing a camera-person. Advice and thoughts welcome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 OK, Um... now how do I put this? I dont believe Ive ever been to a stockdog trainer that spent 2 hours trying to get my dog to sit. I dont think Ive ever seen a stockdog trainer even cared if my dog could sit. Am I missing some thing here? Training sessions should never last 2 to 4 hours. I think when your dog grabbed your leg and hung on for dear life, and then took your leg in her mouth, ( just for good measure ) she may just have been seriously trying to tell you some thing. I think Id have listened to my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 OK, Um... now how do I put this? I dont believe Ive ever been to a stockdog trainer that spent 2 hours trying to get my dog to sit. I dont think Ive ever seen a stockdog trainer even cared if my dog could sit. Am I missing some thing here? Training sessions should never last 2 to 4 hours. I think when your dog grabbed your leg and hung on for dear life, and then took your leg in her mouth, ( just for good measure ) she may just have been seriously trying to tell you some thing. I think Id have listened to my dog. I read it a little differently- although I did think the length of time was a little extreme- I think one thing that is really hard for beginners to grasp is how to correct their dog effectively. I read that more as the trainer teaching corrections rather than a sit itself. Not a bad idea really, although not being there it is hard to judge. And I'm not sure that doing that before an instinct evaluation will set things up well for the dog, staying positive, etc. Or maybe he's like me and tired of begging dogs to work (not my personal dogs) and figures he'll see how the dog (and owner) handles corrections/pressure before investing alot of time in the dog. Of course, they all need working instinct but they also need character and a handler that will listen to instructions and be willing to correct the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I'm not sure that doing that before an instinct evaluation will set things up well for the dog, staying positive, etc My point exactly I did think the length of time was a little extreme Yep, me too tired of begging dogs to work (not my personal dogs) and figures he'll see how the dog (and owner) handles corrections/pressure before investing alot of time in the dog. It was an instinct test. Just let em have the sheep. Any capable trainer,( and I did some checking, this Ken fella has experience, which is even more confusing for me) has a round pen and the ability to stop a dog from mangling sheep, so all that happened before the actual sheep work, just makes me go HUH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I understand it, the trainer could care less if the dog shows instinct, it's a given, it more of a matter of how much will develop, what's not a given is the relationship between the handler and the dog, first he wants to test the relationship then to adjust it so that the dog understands pressure corrections and wants to try to find it's way to the correct response rather then taking pressure as a punishment. It's easier for the handler to focus on one requirement rather then a bunch, better chance that the dog will succeed too. Dogs that take pressure as a punishment apt to blow up or shut down, the adjustment made between handler and dog will also translate between dog and sheep. I would love to work with this trainer, wish I could have worked with someone like that when I started. Work with him as much as you can, you will accel fast, if he does what I expect your dog will have the concept of her commands within a few weeks, you'll move right on to driving focusing on balance and control. I would to kill to have him 1 1/2 hours from me. I would love to hear if he goes the direction I suspect, let me know if you could. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Yeah--I basically agree. It's quite a long time to spend (more than I would), but it wasn't about really getting the dog to sit--it was about the dog understanding who was in charge and seeing if the dog was willing to have a person in the equation. Learning to take a correction without falling apart. If the instinct's there, it's there; this was more about how willing the dog is to learn. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Tiffany, How much of the two hours was spent with the dog minding it's own business in a sit or just staying in one place while you and Ken discussed the requirement, ways to enforce it and the expected result? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Sounds like a long time at one lesson but we spend extra time with our trainer too. Glad you were able to find someone to start with. Been reading a good book that might give you some ideas about how the top ten trainers train sheep dogs. It has helped me. Also Vergil Holland's book is excellent. Good luck. You will be glad you went to someone with your dog. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I kind of read it, that the "off the sheep and talking time" was to correct the dogs manners. I could be wrong. Maybe that's why the session was so long. I, personally, like the "time outs & talking" in-between working the dogs that I'm usually not charged for- wonderful trainer I have!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 LOL! I have a Ken story too! Bear and I went to a clinic, and Bear came out of the car, screaming, pulling, wanting to get to his sheep. I thought Ken would just let this slide - after all, it's a sheep dog clinic, right? Er, no. Ken took Bear's leash, scolded him verbally for his histrionics, and Bear just snapped to attention ("I am clearly in the hands of Someone Who Is On to Me" was his expression). In fact, as Ken walked him to the gate and then away, Bear decided that this was the man that he would spend the rest of his life pleasing, and gave him his best "heads up" heel, which means putting his head as close to your left leg as possible (as flashy heeling is greatly rewarded in the obedience ring) and staring raptly at your face. Ken responded by bumping Bear's head away, saying "see how he's pushing into you? He's being bossy". Later, over supper, I explained why he heels that way. Man, did Kenny feel bad! We joke about it to this day. He just couldn't understand why anyone would teach their dog to heel like that. In retrospect, I think he may have a point. Ken also trained up my Lou for a couple of months at his place, and put the most awesome shed on him. Lou still gets very excited when he sees Ken, and Ken still sings to him (he is going to kill me for telling you that!). He's a very good trainer, IMO, and I think you and Mollie are in great hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Wow, I never thought about the heeling in that sense before, but that might explain a lot. I once spent most of a clinic teaching my young bitch to heel in and out of the round pen. Not formal heeling, but following me whether we were going to the sheep or leaving, relaxing, etc. Jack doesn't mind if dogs are a little excited but he hates to see them not paying a bit of attention to the owner, or him (especially him). He also really hates to see signs that you don't trust your dog - like when you go in, and he says "Let your dog go" and you look at him like he's crazy then slooooooowly unsnap the bolt on the leash (with the other hand holding the collar), then let go of the collar finally with a flinching look away like you are defusing a bomb. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I understand it, the trainer could care less if the dog shows instinct, it's a given, it more of a matter of how much will develop, what's not a given is the relationship between the handler and the dog, first he wants to test the relationship then to adjust it so that the dog understands pressure corrections and wants to try to find it's way to the correct response rather then taking pressure as a punishment. It's easier for the handler to focus on one requirement rather then a bunch, better chance that the dog will succeed too. Dogs that take pressure as a punishment apt to blow up or shut down, the adjustment made between handler and dog will also translate between dog and sheep. I would love to work with this trainer, wish I could have worked with someone like that when I started. Hmmmm.Well, since ya put it that way, I can understand it much better, and I too wish Id have had some one as thoughtful when I first started out as well. As it was I started with an old hand that did a lot of things from another time, and that was to just give the dog the sheep. There was nothing like what Mollie&Me describes, might have been more fun to have some one like that to work with, that looks at the whole picture rather than to just put the dog on sheep, and "just see". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 It takes a lot of discipline, more so on our part, recongnizing when the dog is blowing us off and making sure we deal with it before we go on to another requirement. I have brought Marc Christopher in over the last year for a few clinics and private lessons, he requires that the dog is in a mindset to process information and that the handler is in a mindset to direct and train the dog before you really get to do much work. I have heard many people complain about the processes he uses, and that they don't understand why they need to do all that, since their dogs work. What they are missing is that the process he is trying to get the handler to go through will enable them to fix the issues that they have with their dogs which is why they are at the clinic in the first place. In most cases the reason they can't get the dog to change to a correct behaivor from an undesirable behaivor is due to them not being a factor to the dog. I like what I am hearing about Ken, working on the sit sets thing up with a requirement that all dog owners understand, and in reality most fail at. So many dogs are incapable of staying in a place, I guess you could almost consider it preparing the dog to stay in a flank or stay in a walk up, if you so desired to take it that far. I'm not saying to make the dog mechanical but so that the dog understands that you told him walk up, he should stay walking up, if he stops walking up and you growl he made a mistake and better get walking up again. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie&Me Posted July 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Thanks to all of you for your insightful responses! I actually had thought to myself during the session that it seemed an excessive amount of time to work on one command. But I've done a lot of thinking about the whole thing and I believe that I was being given some very valuable tools, both in training as well as interacting with my dog. ...first he wants to test the relationship then to adjust it so that the dog understands pressure corrections and wants to try to find it's way to the correct response rather then taking pressure as a punishment. It's easier for the handler to focus on one requirement rather then a bunch, better chance that the dog will succeed too. Dogs that take pressure as a punishment apt to blow up or shut down, the adjustment made between handler and dog will also translate between dog and sheep. I would love to work with this trainer, wish I could have worked with someone like that when I started. Green though I am, I think that you summed it up perfectly Deb Ken would often tell me to let Mollie choose the response and then use the pressure corrections as necessary! He also pointed out several times how much he liked seeing her, ears erect (and not pulled back as she would if stressed) and eyes alert. I was a great learning experience, both because I've never done distance work to this degree, but also because I've never asked for this much from Mollie! I'll gladly keep you updated on our progress, Deb. How much of the two hours was spent with the dog minding it's own business in a sit or just staying in one place while you and Ken discussed the requirement, ways to enforce it and the expected result? Actually, he talked to me the whole time. One of the things that I really appreciate about him is that he didn't just tell me to do something - he would explain why I was doing it, the purpose of each pressure correction in relation to the action. And he encouraged me a lot too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 It sounds great, now that I understand the thought process behind it. Very cool to see that instinct kick in, isn't it? You're hooked, I'm sure! Please do drag along a camera person next time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Actually, he talked to me the whole time. One of the things that I really appreciate about him is that he didn't just tell me to do something - he would explain why I was doing it, the purpose of each pressure correction in relation to the action. And he encouraged me a lot too!! Think about this one, rather then telling you what to do, he let you learn through the same process he is trying to get you to use on the dog, when you made the wrong decision he would make it hard for you, applying sudtle pressure until he saw a change in you then he would encourage you. If you think back, as you made progress he would raise the expection, wanting you to try harder and it's amazing, we do. I can't wait to hear about your next lesson. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Ken is a good guy. I liked hearing about some of his methods. Realistically, he did nothing to harm the dog, and all was designed to get the dog's attention. Not a bad approach. Much better than the trainer who puts the dog in a pen, yelling and hollering to keep it off the sheep, and never tries to explain what is going on. You could do a lot worse than work with Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie&Me Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Think about this one, rather then telling you what to do, he let you learn through the same process he is trying to get you to use on the dog, when you made the wrong decision he would make it hard for you, applying sudtle pressure until he saw a change in you then he would encourage you. If you think back, as you made progress he would raise the expection, wanting you to try harder and it's amazing, we do. Egads, I'm the Dog!! I feel like maybe I should go chase some sheep around now...wait, that might not be such a bad idea... Wow Deb, I never even thought about that, but you are right! Hmm, I have to let that one stew for a while and see what I can learn from it... I'm really, really looking forward to the next session! I have been working on pressure corrections with Mollie on a nightly basis (I'm keeping the lessons short) and I've gotten much more comfortable with them. And she's improved by leaps and bounds!! (meanwhile, I look like a certified idiot jumping, dancing and running around her in the field) One thing, though - I'm not too sure how to interact with the sheep in order to benefit my dog. Any suggestions? How do all of you work with the sheep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Two rules for novices: try to open up space between you and the sheep to give your dog somewhere to bring them, and if the dog falters in interest, don't nag at the dog, but go to the sheep and pretend they are the most interesting thing in the world, move them around yourself, etc. Then when the dog suddenly decides to come over, don't say anything but back away again (usually in a rapidly widening circle that follows the dog's tail, then straight back when the dog gets to 12 o'clock). That's called giving the dog the sheep and it may be the most-often shouted command in the round pen - to the novice handler! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Well, it depends on the dog, and how much help the dog needs to make things make sense. For the most part, the way we handle it, the sheep are just there, we teach a flank, around the sheep, the goal is to show the dog the sweet spot and to not push in but yet not get far out, so basically if the dog bumps the sheep we want to be sure he reacts correctly by moving out rather then moving in which would create more motion, if the dog does not correct himself we step in and correct him. We also introduce the walk up, first straight toward the sheep, then straight toward the sheep keeping them balanced, then straight toward the sheep keeping them balance on a straight line. I very rarely work in amongst the sheep, except an occasional fetch and then I want to make sure the dog can drive them back off me. But if the dog lacks the concept of keeping the sheep together I may then do some walk abouts or a little fetching. But I also watch to make sure the dog is interacting with the sheep correctly, if the sheep are moving off, I don't want the dog to apply more pressure because the sheep are right, there is no reason to grip unless you give a command to walk up and the sheep refuse to move. I found that if my dog got in there to grip I missed a correction, as soon as he stopped responding to the pressure of the sheep correctly and started his spiral in. I don't know how Ken handles the same, my guess since he let your dog loose to find her way that his program departs from ours at that point. Everyone has a different way of doing things. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Deb, what about the dog who follows too close? Also the dog who wants to go to the head all the time? Spent some time today in the round pen (finally got sheep there) trying to keep the dog back behind the sheep. Also how do I trust her not to charge into the sheep if I widen things out? Thanks. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Narita, I've been out working Wayne's cattle dog pup the last couple of nights. Wayne tends to just let the dog do what ever it wants, when things get real wrong he then gets mad enough to stop the dog. This little dog covers the head nicely to prevent escape but works in too tight, the majority of the time she starts the sheep into motion just to have to stop them, then she bumps them on the stop moving them again, the only way to get her to stop moving the stock when she is in that mind set if to stop her. And, she hates being stopped, in her mind she is suppose to be moving the stock.... Anyway, I've been spending the last couple of days, first making sure that she moves away from pressure when I apply it, basically step into her, does she roll out away from me, or does she lean on me, the first time I tested her she leaned on me, so I had to teach her that leaning on me was unacceptable, basically on my space bubble, not me physically, but in getting them to change they may wrap their little paws around you and latch on with their teeth, telling you they won't change (kicking and screaming like a kid having a temper tantrum). Once I was able to move her away or to a different place with my pressure I could then let her flank and if her flank changed from a flank to a slice I could step into her and correct her at first just stopping her, then pushing on her a little more to roll her shoulders out a bit, after a couple of corrections I would growl at her when she made the mistake letting her know that she better start thinking different, I had to watch her, is she did not respond to my growl I needed to step into her to get the change, not doing so tells her it's ok to ignore the growl and to proceed on in her thought process. I knew I was making progress when she flanked, started to slice and then fixed herself. A flank should not slice, a way to determine if your flank is slicing, imagine the path your dog is taking on his flank, continue it in your mind and you will find that it is actually spiralling in closer and closer as the flank continues, eventually something will "Pop", basically either the sheep will not be able to handle the noose being tightened and explode or the dog won't be able to handle it, dart in, grip and create the explosion. Last night she was giving me nice flanks, when her mind would stop flanking (change to slicing) I could correct her to let her know she was wrong. I was able to get a solid stop on her, heck she even sat off leash when we entered the pen with the sheep last night and I did not have to correct her, she did not leave until I sent her. I don't let her flanks go far, only as far as she can keep them correct or as far as I can correct her, I then stop her, ask her to walk up, I especially don't want to let her flanks turn into a fetch, letting your flank slide into a fetch is just letting the dog slice, there needs to be a clear defined change from the flank, to a hesitation for the lift, then the fetch. The walk up should be in a certain manner, not blowing in, if she tells me she's going to Yee Haw, I step into her correcting her for the thought, I'm not saying step into her and blow her out, just enough for her to change her expression and body language, to "Dang, your not going to let me do that", release pressure and I allow her to offer another idea as to how to walk up, if she goes back to flanking, I stop her, letting her know that that was the wrong answer. The key is to get the dog away from the excited wanna chase, ram and jam mindset, to the I want to learn and work with you mindset. I have found that I have to be way more diligent with the cattle dogs to get those flanks right then I do with my border collies, if I never let my border collies think that chasing is correct they will automatically self correct when the slice occurs, that is of course if they have as stong sense of balance and control. I found that if they do it again though I need to step in just like I do with the cattle dog so they don't end up thinking that it is ok as they get comfortable with the stock. Early in training there are times that I allow the dog to move the stock with the flank, to help get them interested and trigger their instinct to control and balance, once the instinct kicks in I want to take that away and now teach them that the walk up moves the stock. I have a pup right now that is just getting to the point where is interest is sustained enough that I can step in and show him, "now, we are no longer going to move stock on the flank, we are going to travel around just on the flight zone when we flank". Typically in getting the dog to the right spot I have to push him beyond it, I don't want him to think he can't have his stock, just that he gets them if he proceeds in a particular manner. One warning though, if the dog only has stock drive and balance when he gets excited this process will probably not work, we are demanding that the dog stay calm, learns and thinks. Some of our cattle dogs that were doing great and capable of getting their early legs in competition can't handle being proactive with the stock, they can only work if they get the stock moving and just react. I don't know that you can train a dog like that to do much more then stop, if they can hear you when they are excited. I hope I wrote this in a way that made sense. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Also how do I trust her not to charge into the sheep if I widen things out? Thanks. N Narita, if you widen her out without changing her intention (move the stock the way I want to) she is just going to charge right back in. Also, if you get her to change her intentions and then don't follow through with her maintaining that change through the entire command you are only temporarily modifing behaivor not creating a new behaivor. If she is pushing too hard or to close you need to change the behaivor she thinks is right to the behaivor you want her to exhibit. The fact that she is continuing on an incorrect path proves that she's not going to do it on her own, at some point you have to decide that your going make her want to change. We are training black and white, flanks sets the dog on a path around the sheep, not to wide but not to tight, walk up sets the sheep into motion and keeps them on a straight line, the dog does not stay on the line, she needs to adjust her location based on draws. As I warned some dogs don't have the drive to try to figure out what you want, their desire to work is not strong enough for them to want to change and proceed the way you want. It's almost like you either accept what they give you and manipulate their work with a stop or by thowing a short term block or you move on to a different dog that has more drive. I've seen many dogs that seem brim with drive, but it's only there when they are doing what they want. Deb Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 Thanks Deb. We will try her Wednesday at her lesson with the trainer to get her to back off a bit and rate herself better. She has lots of drive but you are right about her wanting to do it her way. She is my hubby's dog so we can work our sheep with her to get the sheep more dog broke and not so reactive to her every move. She definitely has her own mind and not sure she does want to change. We can accept her as she is too. She has a excellent down and sit so stopping the action works good with her. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 But you want the sheep to be reactive to your dog, if they are not you will not be able to tell when the dog is right or wrong and it will be a wreck when you go to trials with sheep that don't know your dog. Getting your sheep so broke that they don't act like sheep will not get you anywhere in training, they will just give you the satisfaction of being able to go anywhere you want with the sheep at your feet. Might get you some tests or lower titles, but really it does not tell you if your dog has any ability, it only tells you that your dog can lean on you with the sheep in between her and you. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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